"Zechariah 5:9" - female angel?

[JerryZ]

Since we are talking about gender. I believe all men and women are equal before God, but have different roles within the Church and in the familial household.

Being that most scriptures in the masculine refer to God and or Angels, i was confused by the Zechariah 5:9 verse, which at first most people would think is referring to female angels. I wasn’t sure if there was an official Catholic Church teaching on it or not. If there is, please let me know.

I am not sure what this verse means, but when reading through it again, I saw it mentions ANGELS! This is a surprise, since i don’t remember reading that!!!

A LOADED SET OF VERSES!!! Any thoughts on the ANGEL part? Where and how does Paul bring the ANGELS into the conversation, and in only one sentence as if the reader knows what he is talking about?!?

Zechariah
5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
5:6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is the ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their appearance in all the land
5:7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
5:8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?

So let’s examine what is Zechariah doing, he is speaking with an Angel. He calls him that. Then he mentions 3 women 1 represents wickedness (The Angel tells him that) and the other 2 women have wings as storks but he did not called them Angels did he?

So what does it mean to have wings of a storks? Seems we are to infer the charachteristic of the bird from the context of Zechariah (Kindness). So this 2 women are kind and do the will of God. They are not Angels.

I Corinthian 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.

There is no indication that the woman IS an angel rather they are present as testimony that the woman has a the sign of authority of her husband.

 

[jcrichton]

Since we are talking about gender. I believe all men and women are equal before God, but have different roles within the Church and in the familial household.

Being that most scriptures in the masculine refer to God and or Angels, i was confused by the Zechariah 5:9 verse, which at first most people would think is referring to female angels. I wasn’t sure if there was an official Catholic Church teaching on it or not. If there is, please let me know.

I am not sure what this verse means, but when reading through it again, I saw it mentions ANGELS! This is a surprise, since i don’t remember reading that!!!

A LOADED SET OF VERSES!!! Any thoughts on the ANGEL part? Where and how does Paul bring the ANGELS into the conversation, and in only one sentence as if the reader knows what he is talking about?!?

…this is one of those obscured passages… St. Paul could well be making reference to the angels that sorrounds the Believers/Church and thus commands that women subdue their crown of beauty (considered so from antiquity) or perphas he is making a loose reference to Satan’s attempted coup where the angels lost sight of God’s Authority: (God - man - woman); regardless of the case, the call is to behave with modesty!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CynthiaGee]

…this is one of those obscured passages… St. Paul could well be making reference to the angels that sorrounds the Believers/Church and thus commands that women subdue their crown of beauty (considered so from antiquity) or perphas he is making a loose reference to Satan’s attempted coup where the angels lost sight of God’s Authority: (God - man - woman); regardless of the case, the call is to behave with modesty!

Maran atha!

Angel

Paul says nothing about a woman “subduing her crown of beauty” - in fact, that phrase does not appear in the Bible - but he does go to some length to explain men’s and women’s roles in the order of the worship service. In Judaic thought, the worship service here on earth is supposed to correspond to the one in Heaven, with everything standing before God the Creator in order.

In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul told the Corinthians to continue with their local custom of married women wearing their wedding veil (which they wore from the time of their marriage ON, and not just on their wedding day), because it reflected the order of things in Heaven - God, Christ, Man, Woman - AND because a veil is a “type” of the true veil which God gave to Eve - long hair.

However, this does not appear to be any sort of a mandate for wearing a veil - there is no such mandate found anywhere in the Bible. Paul ALLOWED and even ordered women to wear the veils that were the tradition and the norm in Corinth, because their custom mirrored God’s model, but Paul speaks of long hair as being the true, God-given veil - he describes long hair as being a “peribolaion” - IE, a mantle or over-veil, which goes on top of everything else , and with a peribolaion no other covering is needed.

1Cr 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a peribiolaion (covering). "

 

[jcrichton]

Paul says nothing about a woman “subduing her crown of beauty” - in fact, that phrase does not appear in the Bible - but he does go to some length to explain men’s and women’s roles in the order of the worship service. In Judaic thought, the worship service here on earth is supposed to correspond to the one in Heaven, with everything standing before God the Creator in order.

In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul told the Corinthians to continue with their local custom of married women wearing their wedding veil (which they wore from the time of their marriage ON, and not just on their wedding day), because it reflected the order of things in Heaven - God, Christ, Man, Woman - AND because a veil is a “type” of the true veil which God gave to Eve - long hair.

However, this does not appear to be any sort of a mandate for wearing a veil - there is no such mandate found anywhere in the Bible. Paul ALLOWED and even ordered women to wear the veils that were the tradition and the norm in Corinth, because their custom mirrored God’s model, but Paul speaks of long hair as being the true, God-given veil - he describes long hair as being a “peribolaion” - IE, a mantle or over-veil, which goes on top of everything else , and with a peribolaion no other covering is needed.

1Cr 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a peribiolaion (covering). "

…so if the hair covering is that of a veil… why does St. Paul object to a man having long hair and implicates nature as a default mandate?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CynthiaGee]

…so if the hair covering is that of a veil… why does St. Paul object to a man having long hair and implicates nature as a default mandate?

Maran atha!

Angel

HAIR, in and of itself, is not a covering.

1Corinthians 11:4 reads,“Every man praying or prophesying, having his κεφαλή (head) κατά (covered), dishonoureth his head.”

LONG hair, which allowed to κατά (kata) -“proceed or hang down from” - the κεφαλή (kephalē) - “head” - is a covering.

Short hair, and hair that is bound up (whether in Nazirite braids, as in the case of Jewish men who had taken a Nazirite vow, or in buns or braided hairdos (“broidered” styles), doesn’t cover anything beyond the scalp itself, any more than a skirt covers the body if you roll it up at the waistband until it’s the width of a belt.

Insofar as its function as a covering, short hair or hair worn in an up-do might as well be shorn off altogether. When hair is short or worn up, a veil or scarf is needed to achieve coverage of the head, ears, neck, etc. When hair is long and worn down, these areas are covered naturally, as is the face: when a woman with long hair (or short hair and a generous veil) bends her head to pray, her covering falls forward and veils her face, providing privacy.

 

[jcrichton]

HAIR, in and of itself, is not a covering.

1Corinthians 11:4 reads,“Every man praying or prophesying, having his κεφαλή (head) κατά (covered), dishonoureth his head.”

LONG hair, which allowed to κατά (kata) -“proceed or hang down from” - the κεφαλή (kephalē) - “head” - is a covering.

Short hair, and hair that is bound up (whether in Nazirite braids, as in the case of Jewish men who had taken a Nazirite vow, or in buns or braided hairdos (“broidered” styles), doesn’t cover anything beyond the scalp itself, any more than a skirt covers the body if you roll it up at the waistband until it’s the width of a belt.

Insofar as its function as a covering, short hair or hair worn in an up-do might as well be shorn off altogether. When hair is short or worn up, a veil or scarf is needed to achieve coverage of the head, ears, neck, etc. When hair is long and worn down, these areas are covered naturally, as is the face: when a woman with long hair (or short hair and a generous veil) bends her head to pray, her covering falls forward and veils her face, providing privacy.

…so females with long hair (or short) had to wear a veil because they needed privacy?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CynthiaGee]

…so females with long hair (or short) had to wear a veil because they needed privacy?

Maran atha!

Angel

Did I say that?

I said that “when hair is long and worn down, … (the head, ears, and neck)… are covered naturally, as is the face: when a woman with long hair (or short hair and a generous veil) bends her head to pray, her covering falls forward and veils her face, providing privacy.”

I was pointing out that long hair has a tendency to hang forward when the head is bowed, thus providing a “privacy veil” when a woman bends her head in prayer, and in parentheses I noted that a generous veil over short hair would do the same thing, and I made note of this in order to further illustrate the efficacy of long hair as a natural veil.

I didn’t say that “females” NEEDED such privacy (though it IS a nice thing, at times) - it would appear that that idea is your own (somewhat disingenuous?) addition to my words. :ballspin:

 

[jcrichton]

Did I say that?

I said that “when hair is long and worn down, … (the head, ears, and neck)… are covered naturally, as is the face: when a woman with long hair (or short hair and a generous veil) bends her head to pray, her covering falls forward and veils her face, providing privacy.”

I was pointing out that long hair has a tendency to hang forward when the head is bowed, thus providing a “privacy veil” when a woman bends her head in prayer, and in parentheses I noted that a generous veil over short hair would do the same thing, and I made note of this in order to further illustrate the efficacy of long hair as a natural veil.

I didn’t say that “females” NEEDED such privacy (though it IS a nice thing, at times) - it would appear that that idea is your own (somewhat disingenuous?) addition to my words. :ballspin:

…no so much disingenuous as much as perhaps lost… why the call to covering the female head (due to privacy) becuase it would be an afront to the angels?

Since you made the point of the veil I was attempting to single out that particular issue… I apologize if you feel thwarted or maligned!

Maran atha!

Angel