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Partinobodycula
Guest
You are indeed correct, and thus looking at the universe around you, and calling it evidence for God, does not actually make it evidence for God.Plausible, but difficult.I may look at the Sun and call it the Moon. Doesn’t make it a Moon, reality then isn’t how I would like it to be, nor how I think it is. It is what in fact is. So the fault resides in personal perception which doesn’t negate a truth?
You see, what you choose to see.
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GaryTaylor
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A sufficiently advanced alien means what? What attribute makes him sufficiently advanced?
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GaryTaylor
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Yet the Sun remains the Sun, thus an absolute truth which you don’t deny? That’s regardless of choosing to see what you want, namely the moon.
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Partinobodycula
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In this particular case, "sufficiently advanced" simply means that they have the ability to appear before me in a manner similar to what I might expect God to appear before me.A sufficiently advanced alien means what? What attribute makes him sufficiently advanced?
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Partinobodycula
Guest
This is correct. Thus if you look at the universe and see evidence for God, and I look at the universe and see none, which of us is right?
I assume that you’ll claim that you are. But how do you know?
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GaryTaylor
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What manner would this simply be for example? And how might you expect God to appear before you?
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inthespirit
Guest
Oh Look! Your Vision of Mary resonates with the exact representation of His Holy Spirit I have described! Download the numbers and graph them yourself to see!Plausible, but difficult.
Yet there is absolute truth? I may look at the Sun and call it the Moon. Doesn’t make it a Moon, reality then isn’t how I would like it to be, nor how I think it is. It is what in fact is. So the fault resides in personal perception which doesn’t negate a truth?
Any non-believers want to offer credible ideas as to how I did this?
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Partinobodycula
Guest
Just to cite an example, if Jesus stood before me with nail marks in His hands and feet, I would not be able to tell if He was truly the Christ of the Bible, or merely a sufficiently advanced alien with the ability to appear before me in whatever manner it so chose. Jesus understood this to be true. He knew that even if someone should rise from the dead it would not be sufficient to convince the skeptic. Because He knew that people see what they choose to see.
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t, no proof is possible” It’s all about faith. People see what they choose to see.
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Peter_Plato
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How would you “know” that you can never know, except as an act of willful determination?
You are, in effect, making a determined decision that you will never know rather than leaving the option of the possibility of knowing an open one.
How do you know that your nature is “ultimately” a limited one without a predetermination by your current limited perspective that it is?
In essence, you are making as a fundamental option the perspective that you are all, whereas a theist makes a fundamental determination that s/he has no reason for making that choice.
You cannot know that you are and always will be limited because your current limitations do not warrant such a claim. The theist claims that any claim about current “limitations” implies the existence of a fuller “unlimited” gauge by which to apprehend those limitations (as per Aquinas’ fourth way.) We know there must be truth because we know we don’t possess truth. We only know that we are, in our current state, limited because we apprehend that something unlimited exists beyond what we are.
In short, we have no reason to think being is limited precisely because that sense of “being limited” could only come from something beyond our limitations.
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Lynxdk
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Endowed by whom or what? That’s the word you chose to use, so I’m asking =)
And I might have some agreement with what your sister sees, not that the weather itself was part of the conspiracy, nor even that there was a pre-planned conspiracy of people intentionally working together to cause harm to others, but even just a government conspiracy of mishaps, foolishness, and people trying to cover for their own mistakes, which did, indeed, result in some people “secretly planning to jointly to commit unlawful or harmful acts.” … for example.
The way our rights have been increasingly stripped away in this country, is not just “mental evidence” because we see connections. Just try getting on an airplane these days.
I’ts not just a Choice, it involves Action, as well, not just running on the assumption that I Can’t know, but that I Can, if I keep looking for answers… otherwise I might just as well be a lunatic imagining all creation around me, where nothing exists except what I perceive to exist.
And yes, I noticed the notation, and no, I don’t have any common misconceptions, as you suggest. I’m familiar with the subject. Can’t really describe everything in my head in a few little sentences or paragraphs though
“Being a solipsist does not mean that I think that I’m God. Such a position would be illogical.” Illogical, how? Unless you test it, how can you know, one way or the other?
Faith is only Part of the answer, a place to start. If you have none of that, what point is there in anything else you do? Not arguing that you’re making the “wrong” choices. Those are just choices that you make in your head. It’s the actions that follow, that make the difference.
Partinobodycula; said:
Having schizophrenia is a pretty good example of seeing things that I did not choose to see, and hearing things that I did not choose to hear, but have had no choice in the matter, so that statement sounds a little trite to me
But going back to the “conspiracy” ideas, some people see patterns, and then get paranoid about them, seeing more than whats really there, and some people get scared, dismissing anything a conspiracy theorist might have to say, and choose to Not see what Is there, so there’s two sides of a coin.
On the edge of that, there’s a sort of laziness, it seems to me, not to bother questioning anything, which eventually will result in having choices made For a person, because they Didn’t choose.
No offense. =)
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Partinobodycula
Guest
Lynxdk, bear with me, I have been attempting to answer Peter Plato’s post. It deserves a thoughtful response, as do you.
But I’m going to have to take a break, so forgive me if I do not get around to answering you for awhile.
Thanks,
Partinobodycular
But I’m going to have to take a break, so forgive me if I do not get around to answering you for awhile.
Thanks,
Partinobodycular
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Lynxdk
Guest
No worries. I might not be back online till later tonight, myself =)
I really like what Peter said, and a lot of my direction is in that sense of things, but my mind is a little more chaotic, you could say
so I appreciate your perspective as well. I like to see things in lots of different ways at times
I really like what Peter said, and a lot of my direction is in that sense of things, but my mind is a little more chaotic, you could say
so I appreciate your perspective as well. I like to see things in lots of different ways at times
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Partinobodycula
Guest
Thank you Peter Plato, you ask some very thoughtful questions. I will try to address them.
I can understand that I am limited, and in so doing, I can grasp the immense importance of faith. Being a solipsist is simply an admission of what I am, it is not a restriction on what I can believe.
Again, thank you Peter Plato, for questions that prompted me to have to think. I can only hope that my answers will prompt others to do the same.
You are correct, I wouldn’t. I have the miraculous ability to ponder, and wonder, and do all manner of conscious things. But I don’t know why, or how. And thus I am not an atheist. I cannot say that there is no God. For I don’t know from whence I came. All that I know, is that I am. And that I have the remarkable ability to contemplate that I am.
Again you are correct. I could choose to leave the option open, but it would be a dishonest one. I do however leave open the option of there being a God, because I ultimately can never know where I came from, or what I am. Such is the dilemma of a conscious mind, it is trapped within itself.
I will grant you that my perspective is limited, but I am ultimately restricted to this “limited perspective” due to the fact that I cannot gain a perspective outside of myself. This is something that I cannot change nor overcome. And yes, it means that my perspective is limited, and it shall always remain so. But this doesn’t inhibit me from believing in other things as well, I can believe in you, and in reality, and in God. I can believe in many things, but ultimately, all that I can know, is that I am.
I am not making the assumption that I am all, only that I am all that I can know. People can believe whatever they choose to believe, as can I. There are no restrictions on what one can believe, and thus the indispensable importance of faith. I am a solipsist, not because I am limited by what I believe, but because I am limited by what I know, and what I can know.
I can never be conscious of something, of which I am not conscious. I can never have a perspective outside of myself. This is a limitation that I cannot overcome.
Let me first say that I greatly admire Aquinas. Let me also admit that I know that I am not God, for the very reason that I know that I am limited. I can contemplate about the existence of God, and the nature of God. Which Aquinas does very well. But contemplation, no matter how sincere, or how profound, can never make my limited nature, unlimited. I can never know anything with absolute certainty, beyond the fact that I am, and that I can ponder, and believe, and love, and hope.
I can understand that I am limited, and in so doing, I can grasp the immense importance of faith. Being a solipsist is simply an admission of what I am, it is not a restriction on what I can believe.
Again, thank you Peter Plato, for questions that prompted me to have to think. I can only hope that my answers will prompt others to do the same.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I hear you, your first sentence is no doubt the truth, so we reached an absolute?
Be foolish to contest the point.
I think you know I disagree with the last sentence. That said I’ll withdraw since imho there is much for you to think about already proposed by others.
Peace
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Zachary
Guest
How do you know that your ability is remarkable? If you can’t know that anyone/thing else is true or exists except? I have to be honest, I stopped reading there because it just screamed “self-refuting”.
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hasantas
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hasantas
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hasantas
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rossum
Guest
It is perfectly possible, and it can be done directly from the Bible.
The proof is by contradiction. I shall show that the statement, “God exists” is false.
Let G = “God exists”. We do not yet know whether G is true or false.
Let A = “King Ahaziah was twenty-two when he came to the throne” (2 Kings 8:26). A is true because the statement is found in the Bible.
By standard logic of an implication (if … then): G → A. This is always true, whether or not G is true.
Now we reverse the implication, again using standard logic: ~A → ~G
Looking in the Bible at 2 Chronicles 22:2 we see that King Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he came to the throne. Hence A is false and ~A is true.
If ~A is true than the previous reversed implication, ~A → ~G, tells us that ~G is true. If ~G is true than G must be false. QED.
Hence we have logically proved that God does not exist.
To summarise the logic:
G = God exists.
A = King Ahaziah was twenty-two when he came to the throne
The truth or falsity of G is to be determined.
1: A from 2 Kings 8:26.
2: G → A
3: ~A → ~G
4: ~A from 2 Chronicles 22:2.
5: ~G from #3 and #4
This is a standard application of the logical truism that you can prove anything from a contradiction.
rossum
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