‘Revolution’: Rome Lutheran pastor says Pope Francis ‘opened door’ to intercommunion

[Son_of_Niall]

Yes I take the 1st Commandment literally.

Catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

So, no. The word ‘heretic’ does not apply to those born outside of the Catholic Church.
As to who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell (another word you appear to enjoy using), Catholics leave that to God. Not you.
I believe our Pope when he speaks of God’s mercy.
There’s a word you should be more familiar with.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

So, no. The word ‘heretic’ does not apply to those born outside of the Catholic Church.
As to who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell (another word you appear to enjoy using), Catholics leave that to God. Not you.
I believe our Pope when he speaks of God’s mercy.
There’s a word you should be more familiar with.

Agreed. It is more accurate to say that non-Catholics subscribe to heretical beliefs without being heretics (not being born into the Church). In any case, anyone who subscribes to heretical beliefs should not take communion. Mercy ought not to be confused with being lax on official church teaching. Vatican I states that those who reject papal infallibility/supremacy do so at the peril of their souls. Hence, it does not follow that those who reject the authority of the Pope should take communion (not saying you think this).

 

[Jon_Mallory]

The Mercy of Christ is the supreme mystery of the Church which trumps the perceived need by the Church to protect itself from “the hetrodox”.

But do you understand the consequences of admitting the heterodox into communion? It does not make the Church more loving and accepting. Instead, it brings confusion. If a Lutheran who rejects core doctrines can take communion, then it is conceivable that belief in Transubstantiation, the Marian dogmas, and papal supremacy/infalllibility, and Catholic soteriology become optional. From my catechesis, I learned that to not believe these things as a Catholic is mortal sin and she/he should not take communion. That person is auto-excommunicated. And yet, it is permissible for a Lutheran who openly disputes Catholic dogma to take communion? Protestants are not excluded from the Eucharist out of some legalistic holier than thou mind set. It is to protect them.

I desire unity but allowing non-Catholics to take part in communion does not accomplish true unity. It is a false unity that does not heal our divisions but rather blinds ourselves to them. A lot of Protestants who take their Protestantism seriously and Orthodox would agree with me.

 

[Neofight]

I desire unity but allowing non-Catholics to take part in communion does not accomplish true unity. It is a false unity that does not heal our divisions but rather blinds ourselves to them. A lot of Protestants who take their Protestantism seriously and Orthodox would agree with me.

I like the idea of celebrating the open doors of the Church this year…maybe for others next year there can be a blessing of locks.

 

[MiserableSinner]

So, no. The word ‘heretic’ does not apply to those born outside of the Catholic Church.
As to who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell (another word you appear to enjoy using), Catholics leave that to God. Not you.
I believe our Pope when he speaks of God’s mercy.
There’s a word you should be more familiar with.

Are you saying I should presume God’s mercy for people who do not convert?

From the Catechism on the 1st Commandment
2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

So if a heresy, such as Lutheran heresy/Baptist heresy, teaches someone that they can presume God’s mercy and still go to Heaven, should I say it is not heresy and then presume God’s mercy for the Lutheran myself?

Or should I be charitable and do what Christ wants, try my best to convert them and save their souls?

The Devil is confusing people about what mercy is. Mercy is trying to save people from Hell. IT IS NOT trying to make them feel “accepted” and avoid “offending” them.
To be merciful you have to deny yourself.

Mark 8:34
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.…

This is from the Catechism on the first Commandment:

Faith

2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that “ignorance of God” is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

• Hope

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

• Charity

2093 Faith in God’s love encompasses the call and the obligation to respond with sincere love to divine charity. The first commandment enjoins us to love God above everything and all creatures for him and because of him.12

2094 One can sin against God’s love in various ways:

• indifference neglects or refuses to reflect on divine charity; it fails to consider its prevenient goodness and denies its power.
• ingratitude fails or refuses to acknowledge divine charity and to return him love for love.
• lukewarmness is hesitation or negligence in responding to divine love; it can imply refusal to give oneself over to the prompting of charity.
• acedia or spiritual sloth goes so far as to refuse the joy that comes from God and to be repelled by divine goodness.
• hatred of God comes from pride. It is contrary to love of God, whose goodness it denies, and whom it presumes to curse as the one who forbids sins and inflicts punishments.

Here is a link to the Catechism on the first Commandment. I think you should read it.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

I love you

 

[Peter_J]

It’s hard to sift the truth from falsehood in journalism these days. So many pictures of Pope Francis are appearing in which he is hugging or standing with some member of another faith community. One image that stands out in my mind is of him hugging Patriarch Bartholomew with one caption reading “Nothing can separate us” or something to that effect. It’s deceptive and shallow. I’m sure both want the other to repent of heresy and THEN there can be true unity. The articles on the web seem to be written by people who want to skip the “repent of heresy” part.

Is this it?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

MiserableSinner,
You sound very suspiously like a formally banned user. Which I might add, circumvention of a ban is called ‘lying’, which I believe qualifies as a sin.
But I will assume you are indeed new to be charitable.

Anyway, let’s see what the church actually says about this.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

See any heresy there?

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Any heresy alleged there?

I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true, original, New Testament, “full Gospel” church and that everyone should be Catholic. But, your rhetoric mirrors that of every anti-Catholic that I have ever encountered. It rings of the same condescending “I love you but…” “No offense but…” self aggrandizing attitude that they take with us Catholics.
I realize you will not accept this, and that’s fine with me. I simply want faithful Christian lurkers who read this to understand that YOU do not represent the Catholic Church or many other Catholics.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Is this it?

I’ve seen that one. I love Lutheran satire

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I like the idea of celebrating the open doors of the Church this year…maybe for others next year there can be a blessing of locks.

Well, everyone is welcome to attend a Catholic Church anytime so I don’t know what my post contained that would support a “locked doors” mentality.

 

[Memaw]

The Mercy of Christ is the supreme mystery of the Church which trumps the perceived need by the Church to protect itself from “the hetrodox”.

Whose idea is that??? I do believe Jesus Christ set up His Church, (the Catholic Church) and said it would NOT teach error!! HE would be with it till the end of time. So far that has proven TRUE, so what make us think that will change. No matter what us little people want. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Yes, we do. Lack of Catholic recognition doesn’t matter.

Jon

Don’t you think it matters to God??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Louie1983]

The possibility of someone who rejects core Roman Catholic beliefs being allowed to take communion? This is where ecumenism goes too far. The sacred mysteries of the Church must be protected from the heterodox.

100% agree with this.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

100% agree with this.

I’m upset that some here consider my stance anti ecumenist. I totally affirm that there are some truths in Protestantism but a lot of Catholics nowadays find it hard to believe that anyone can have a grasp of truth at all. Hence, when someone advocates a cautious ecumenism that takes into account the differences that divide us, he/she is a “fundamentalist catholic” who might be closet SSPX and thinks he is wiser than the Pope. On the flip side, there are those who reject ecumenism altogether and they are also wrong.

 

[MiserableSinner]

Anyway, let’s see what the church actually says about this.

This is what the Church says about the first commandment and heresy:

Faith

2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that “ignorance of God” is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

2088** The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it.** There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

This is what the Church officially teaches on the Holy Commandment of God, the 1st Commandment, and this is what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us.

Do you agree or disagree?

If you disagree, you commit heresy and can not receive Holy Communion without committing sacrilege.

The rulers of the spiritual darkness of this world are attacking you and using the situation to tempt both of us to sin. I am telling you that because I have your eternity in mind. Christ loves you. Ask Him to help you. They are stronger than you are.

I actually do love you. Be at peace.

 

[JonNC]

Don’t you think it matters to God??? God Bless, Memaw

I think God would like to see a mutual recognition of orders. We recognize yours

Jon

 

[MiserableSinner]

I think God would like to see a mutual recognition of orders. We recognize yours

Jon

God wants you to come back to the Church He established. He doesn’t want His Church to call Holy Orders valid when they are not.

It isn’t as simple as “recognizing.” They have to actually be valid.

This is what the Lutheran wikki says:
“Holy Orders. Lutherans, on the whole, reject the Roman Catholic teaching of Holy Orders because they do not think sacerdotalism is supported by the Bible.”

The same Bible that Luther took from the Catholic Church and then removed books from to support the heretical doctrines he wanted to spread.

God wills that you come to the Catholic Church. Literally, God. That is His Will. Will you do His Will or your own?

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Don’t you think it matters to God??? God Bless, Memaw

Protestants do not need the Catholic Church to follow God. They are brethren.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The Mercy of Christ is the supreme mystery of the Church which trumps the perceived need by the Church to protect itself from “the hetrodox”.

:sad_yes:

'Fraid so. There is often a blackness - to the core - in those who “protect the Church from the heterdox.” God sees it plainly. And these folks come in all denominations. That chill you feel ain’t the Holy Spirit…

For the record, as I have stated umpteen times before, I am all for prayer in common and closer communion between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. I hope that we will continue to work for this - and am glad the door is open.

:yup:

 

[Jon_Mallory]

:sad_yes:

'Fraid so. There is often a blackness - to the core - in those who “protect the Church from the heterdox.” God sees it plainly. And these folks come in all denominations. That chill you feel ain’t the Holy Spirit…

For the record, as I have stated umpteen times before, I am all for prayer in common and closer communion between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. I hope that we will continue to work for this - and am glad the door is open.

:yup:

There is often blackness to the core in those who protect the church from the heterodox? What are we to say of the Church fathers then? Also, I am not against ecumenism as I’ve repeated before. Good relations with the Lutherans is to be desired but admitting them to the sacred Eucharist is another matter all together? It is presumptuous to say people who are concerned about orthodoxy are black and not influenced by the Holy Spirit. Who are you to say who and who isn’t influenced by the Holy Spirit? For the record, I also support prayer with Protestant and have prayed with them frequently. You are writing a false narrative about people who oppose what this Lutheran pastor thinks should happen. Ecumenism does not mean compromise. Holding to this does not make one black hearted. That is also a character judgment and hence, inappropriate.

 

[FollowChrist34]

There is often blackness to the core in those who protect the church from the heterodox? What are we to say of the Church fathers then? Also, I am not against ecumenism as I’ve repeated before. Good relations with the Lutherans is to be desired but admitting them to the sacred Eucharist is another matter all together? It is presumptuous to say people who are concerned about orthodoxy are black and not influenced by the Holy Spirit. Who are you to say who and who isn’t influenced by the Holy Spirit? For the record, I also support prayer with Protestant and have prayed with them frequently. You are writing a false narrative about people who oppose what this Lutheran pastor thinks should happen. Ecumenism does not mean compromise. Holding to this does not make one black hearted. That is also a character judgment and hence, inappropriate.

Where did I say I supported sharing the Eucharist?

I said I wanted prayer in common and that I was glad the door was open *to work towards *inter-communion.

And I have a right to state my opinion. When the Pope references stony hearts is he out of line? All I am saying is that I have seen many working in the name of defending faith, be it Catholic, Lutheran, or something else - with very little mercy and much coldness.