‘Revolution’: Rome Lutheran pastor says Pope Francis ‘opened door’ to intercommunion

[cjforJesus]

I realize that I am entering this discussion quite late, but here are my 2 cents worth.

1. It seems to me that the pope was making a comment about one specific person and not the entire Lutheran church. In his response he points to the conscience of that individual person. For me this is not a question of ecumenism or some attempt at a union between the Church and Lutheranism.

Framed in such a way, the matter rests with that one soul, making a very important decision. Whatever decision she will make at this point, it will be dictated by her conscience.

To me there is a big difference between one individual soul grappling with the choice of receiving or not receiving. Presumably, she is fully aware of the implications of her decisions, and if she is a believer, she is prepared to face the consequences.

Having said that, there is nothing more to be said. This is a matter of a Christian person and her response to Christ’s call.

The Catechism states that the Catholic church will not triumph through a gradual ascendency. It appears there will be no merging of doctrines and churches to create a one world church of Jesus Christ.
All baptized believers though are in a broad sense part of the Church. All people have the desire for God written on the heart so to speak.

In that conversation with the Lutheran woman Pope Francis affirmed he would not dare tell her to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church. The Lutheran Church is not in full communion with the Catholic and POpe Francis affirmed he has no authority to allow her.I think in certain extraordinary circumstances such as imminent death it may be allowed.
This woman is in full communion with her denomination and she can receive there. I am not sure why she wants to attend a Catholic mass with her spouse and receive the Eucharist. She probably should become Catholic if she desires full communion with the Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Catechism states that the Catholic church will not triumph through a gradual ascendency. It appears there will be no merging of doctrines and churches to create a one world church of Jesus Christ.
All baptized believers though are in a broad sense part of the Church. All people have the desire for God written on the heart so to speak.

In that conversation with the Lutheran woman Pope Francis affirmed he would not dare tell her to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church. The Lutheran Church is not in full communion with the Catholic and POpe Francis affirmed he has no authority to allow her.I think in certain extraordinary circumstances such as imminent death it may be allowed.
This woman is in full communion with her denomination and she can receive there. I am not sure why she wants to attend a Catholic mass with her spouse and receive the Eucharist. She probably should become Catholic if she desires full communion with the Church.

Agreed.

Important to note here is Catholics stance on Holy Communion. The mass being the summit of worship and the host being real body of Jesus Christ, not merely symbol or merely present in its guise, but real body of the Lord after the transubstantiation. Except in special circumstances, only Catholics in a state of grace can receive the Holy Communion. This stance is unchangeable that even the Pope cannot go against it. This is the reason why Pope Francis cannot allow the Protestant woman to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.

Protestants, perhaps because they do not regards Holy Communion in such manner as the Catholic Church, may not quite understand why Catholicism is so particular on not admitting non-Catholics to Communion.

 

[JonNC]

The Catechism states that the Catholic church will not triumph through a gradual ascendency. It appears there will be no merging of doctrines and churches to create a one world church of Jesus Christ.
All baptized believers though are in a broad sense part of the Church. All people have the desire for God written on the heart so to speak.

In that conversation with the Lutheran woman Pope Francis affirmed he would not dare tell her to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church. The Lutheran Church is not in full communion with the Catholic and POpe Francis affirmed he has no authority to allow her.I think in certain extraordinary circumstances such as imminent death it may be allowed.
This woman is in full communion with her denomination and she can receive there. I am not sure why she wants to attend a Catholic mass with her spouse and receive the Eucharist. She probably should become Catholic if she desires full communion with the Church.

Yes. I’m sure she does receive in her Lutheran parish, and that is sufficient. Her question is one that is part of the Lutheran / Catholic dialogue in Central Europe as well, where inter- communion marriage is common. They simply want to be able to commune together as husband and wife.

Jon

 

[cjforJesus]

Yes. I’m sure she does receive in her Lutheran parish, and that is sufficient. Her question is one that is part of the Lutheran / Catholic dialogue in Central Europe as well, where inter- communion marriage is common. They simply want to be able to commune together as husband and wife.

Jon

Yes,but why not just convert to Catholicism? If they have or are considering having children their kids will be raised Catholic too. It makes much more sense than trying to get the Church to alter her teachings

 

[KathleenGee]

When reading the latest from P Francis, it is recommended you go to sites that provide you his actual statements. I go to National Catholic Register to find out what he says.

I took a client for almost a year to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church that requested those not in communion with them, to atleast come up for a blessing, same as Catholic.

 

[Peter_J]

It makes much more sense than trying to get the Church to alter her teachings

I would guess that every Church has, at some point or other, confronted the question “Why are they trying to get us to change our teachings?”

Any guesses about whether the same question will be asked 1,000 years from now?

 

[JonNC]

Yes,but why not just convert to Catholicism? If they have or are considering having children their kids will be raised Catholic too. It makes much more sense than trying to get the Church to alter her teachings

Well, we could ask the same of the husband: why not just become Lutheran?
It usually is not as simple as just changing traditions in either direction, for either Lutherans or Catholics.

I do not know what the policy is of that particular synod, but confessional Lutherans tend to have closed or close communion as well, and mainly for the same reasons as Catholicism.
I don’t support what she’s requesting. It seems to me Eucharistic fellowship comes from broader altar and pulpit unity.

Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

I do not know what the policy is of that particular synod, but confessional Lutherans tend to have closed or close communion as well, and mainly for the same reasons as Catholicism.
I don’t support what she’s requesting. It seems to me Eucharistic fellowship comes from broader altar and pulpit unity.

Jon

A simple conclusion would be that this Lutheran woman came from a synod which probably allows for inter-Communion between denominations. I would not know the details though but for the fact the she asked for receiving Holy Communion in a Catholic Church suggests she has not understood the full understanding of Holy Communion from the Catholic viewpoint or rather, Catholicism teaching on Holy Communion. Had she understood it, there is no way that she, being a Lutheran, could receive Holy Communion in a Catholic mass, which even the Pope could not give dispensation (per se) to this woman.

I am not sure what you mean by ‘Eucharist fellowship’.

There are two things though:

(1) just about anybody is allowed to come to the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in a Catholic Church, in which case, the Protestant wife does indeed participate in this celebration.

(2) as for receiving Holy Communion during an Eucharistic celebration (mass), that is optional among Catholics and not allowed for non-Catholics. Their participation in the mass is complete nevertheless, regardless whether one receive Holy Communion or not.

Thus, I think, there is obviously big differences in Catholics and non-Catholics views on the Eucharist, specifically Holy Communion. At the moment, I cannot see how the Catholic Church would change this stance (in not admitting non-Catholics to Holy Communion). The short answer as suggested here is of course for the non-Catholic to embrace Catholicism, a situation both the Catholic Church and perhaps the person concerned would not want - if it is solely for the purpose of receiving Holy Communion and not out of sincere belief.

 

[cjforJesus]

Well, we could ask the same of the husband: why not just become Lutheran?
It usually is not as simple as just changing traditions in either direction, for either Lutherans or Catholics.

I do not know what the policy is of that particular synod, but confessional Lutherans tend to have closed or close communion as well, and mainly for the same reasons as Catholicism.
I don’t support what she’s requesting. It seems to me Eucharistic fellowship comes from broader altar and pulpit unity.

Jon

Why not become Lutheran? Because Lutherans are in schism.They BROKE from the Catholic church centuries ago.It is documented history. The Church is STILL schisming to this day.
It has been predicted by some saints that there will be another great apostasy and schism.
One mystic(I cannot recall her name but she is a the book Reign of Antichrist by Rev Culleton) claims there will be THREE reigning popes at one time!

 

[JonNC]

Why not become Lutheran? Because Lutherans are in schism.They BROKE from the Catholic church centuries ago.It is documented history. The Church is STILL schisming to this day.
It has been predicted by some saints that there will be another great apostasy and schism.
One mystic(I cannot recall her name but she is a the book Reign of Antichrist by Rev Culleton) claims there will be THREE reigning popes at one time!

You’re seeing this from the Catholic POV. understandable, but we do not see schism as one sided. You are as much in schism from us as we are from you.
Speculating now, but she probably recognizes the similarity in teaching regarding the sacrament between our communions and believes that to be sufficient reason for Eucharistic fellowship. As I mentioned, it is a dialog question in Germany as well, where intercommunion marriage has led spouses on both sides to ask for this. So it isn’t coming from only the Lutheran side

Jon

 

[cjforJesus]

You’re seeing this from the Catholic POV. understandable, but we do not see schism as one sided. You are as much in schism from us as we are from you.
Speculating now, but she probably recognizes the similarity in teaching regarding the sacrament between our communions and believes that to be sufficient reason for Eucharistic fellowship. As I mentioned, it is a dialog question in Germany as well, where intercommunion marriage has led spouses on both sides to ask for this. So it isn’t coming from only the Lutheran side

Jon

Of course it is one sided.Luther was a Catholic who started His own church. It is in the history books.

I am not certain that Lutherans even have the same beliefs concerning the Eucharist. I doubt Eucharistic sharing except under grave circumstances will ever be allowed. It is not only truly the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ,but also a sign of full communion,We are all of one mind and heart.

 

[JonNC]

=

cjforJesus;13549129]Of course it is one sided.Luther was a Catholic who started His own church. It is in the history books.

Jesus started His own Church, of which Lutherans, Catholics and many more are members.

I am not certain that Lutherans even have the same beliefs concerning the Eucharist. I doubt Eucharistic sharing except under grave circumstances will ever be allowed. It is not only truly the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ,but also a sign of full communion,We are all of one mind and heart.

I’ll take your word for it on the one mind and heart, though I have been on CAF for a long time…
According to many Catholic and Lutheran theologians, as opposed to apologists, our views on the Eucharist are quite similar.

Jon

 

[Memaw]

Why not become Lutheran? Because Lutherans are in schism.They BROKE from the Catholic church centuries ago.It is documented history. The Church is STILL schisming to this day.
It has been predicted by some saints that there will be another great apostasy and schism.
One mystic(I cannot recall her name but she is a the book Reign of Antichrist by Rev Culleton) claims there will be THREE reigning popes at one time!

Before we get to carried away by what some people “claim,” there is a big difference between Schism and Heresy. Those in Schism have the same Sacraments as the Catholic Church but are not under the rule of the Pope. Those in Heresy have made up some of their own beliefs, some true and some not true. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Ontheway]

The Catechism states that the Catholic church will not triumph through a gradual ascendency. It appears there will be no merging of doctrines and churches to create a one world church of Jesus Christ.
All baptized believers though are in a broad sense part of the Church. All people have the desire for God written on the heart so to speak.

In that conversation with the Lutheran woman Pope Francis affirmed he would not dare tell her to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church. The Lutheran Church is not in full communion with the Catholic and POpe Francis affirmed he has no authority to allow her.I think in certain extraordinary circumstances such as imminent death it may be allowed.
This woman is in full communion with her denomination and she can receive there. I am not sure why she wants to attend a Catholic mass with her spouse and receive the Eucharist. She probably should become Catholic if she desires full communion with the Church.

I agree. My thinking is/was that the Pope’s answer was an invitation extended to that person to convert to Catholicism as a pre-condition of taking communion. If it was not stated explicitly, it is certainly implied and any serious believer, Lutheran or any other, would take it this way.

Our faith is something between each individual and God.

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree. My thinking is/was that the Pope’s answer was an invitation extended to that person to convert to Catholicism as a pre-condition of taking communion. If it was not stated explicitly, it is certainly implied and any serious believer, Lutheran or any other, would take it this way.

Our faith is something between each individual and God.

It could only point to that seeing how particular Catholicism regards the exclusivity of the Holy Communion in the Eucharistic celebration. It is pertinent to note that the Holy Father actually stated clearly that ‘it was not his place to decide’ whether she can receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Eucharistic celebration.