‘Say the Black, Do the Red’ — Liturgical Abuse and Pastoral Malpractice

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"But this whole sacramental catastrophe could have been avoided had the one baptizing only done the exceedingly simple thing of faithfully using the valid words. "
 
This is something that makes my blood boil. The Mass and the sacraments are not a sketch so the priest or deacon can improvise. They aren’t about him. Just say black and do the red. It’s not hard.
 
Exactly correct.

Prescribing the exact words and rubrics is done specifically to avoid questions of validity. Once you start tinkering the question arises when does illiceity fall into invalidity.

In extreme situations, e.g., the concentration camps, variation from liceity may not only be necessary but actually commendable - even if validity is brought into question. But in a parish church in a first world nation? Not so much!
 
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“… pastoral malpractice of the worst possible kind,” huh? Such rhetoric! I can think of worse.
 
Well personally I think that the sex scandals are horrific. I wasn’t aware though that use of the term “the worse possible kind’ somehow made it so that NO other ‘abuse’ could be considered.

When I would say that child abuse is an example of the worst possible kind of sex abuse, does that mean that I no longer believe that sex trafficking of adult women or men is an abuse? Or that adultery and fornication aren’t abuses? Poppycock.

Or that all sins are ‘ranked’ with “Adolf Hitler” at the top and “my 7 year old’s little white lie’ at the bottom, with people jostling along claiming that THEIR particular view of Sin X makes it so much worse than another person’s view of Sin Y?

Good gravy. No wonder we have such a mess in the world. Everybody is out there ready to bite and scratch for the prize of being able to be the one person who can ‘judge’ exactly what degree to assign to any given ‘wrong’, and to sneer and jeer at those who make any claim that doesn’t suit them.
 
If I understand you (@stpurl) correctly, many things are the worst possible abuse. Okay. My boss used to say, when asked to prioritize our tasks, that they were all top priority.

And I gather, from your post, that someone is biting, scratching, judging, sneering, and jeering. Oh my! I hope I never encounter such a person.
 
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stpurl said:
Good gravy.
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Never can have too much good gravy, I always say 😃

Back on topic, and with regard to the Michigan situation, what concerns me is that the laity seem to have been so poorly catechized that none of them, over all the years that this was going on, were able to recognize that something was not right.

D
 
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Exactly.
And, unlike the things which are viewed as ‘more important’ (and make no mistake, sexual abuse is important), the whole point is that, with regard to sexual abuse, it is indeed recognized that the actions, the coverups, etc. Are wrong.

In this situation, decades went by with people throughout the entire US, in dioceses which were ‘progressive’, ‘conservative’, and everything in between, people who were everything from CINOs to dedicated highly educated Catholics, people who couldn’t recognize a catechism if it bit them to people who routinely read the Summa Theological — NONE of these people appeared to be able to either understand that anything was ‘wrong’, or were able, if they did recognize such, to be able to get the ‘hierarchy’ of the parish, or the diocese, to recognize the wrong!

The sheer number of people who were never validly baptized, confirmed, given last rites, and above all who never received a valid Eucharist, is staggering. And the fact that such an event, for such a long time, is given the giant ‘ho-hum’, “no biggie’, “not really important compared to X” is telling.
 
@stpurl, there is a more charitable view of the Catholics who went along with this. Of course I see your point as you say poorly catechized or unable to understand, but it is also possible that many Catholics of simple faith (Luke 18:15-17) trust in the Holy Spirit. They may grasp that the Holy Spirit is a living person, who is able to adapt and correct and accomplish its holy and perfect will in spite of a man who intends well but speaks the wrong word.

Now, I expect you will say that anyone who believes that is wrong. Argue all you want, but I hope that we can stop making uncharitable assumptions about fellow Catholics and putting words in their mouths.

@DaveBj, I acknowledge that “poorly catechized” as you wrote is not uncharitable.
 
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Beryllos said:
@DaveBj, I acknowledge that “poorly catechized” as you wrote is not uncharitable.
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What would you call it, then, when large numbers of laity have been so poorly instructed that they don’t even know the correct words of the baptismal formula?

D
 
In the several decades following Vatican II, many parishes became accustomed to frequent or nearly constant changes in the liturgy and sacramental practices. It’s possible that parishioners who grew up in such an constantly changing parish environment may have assumed that any new practices were authorized.
 
I’ll PM you, so as to not derail an otherwise fine discussion.

(Later) Oh well, I tried. @stpurl is not accepting messages at this time.
 
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JimG said:
In the several decades following Vatican II, many parishes became accustomed to frequent or nearly constant changes in the liturgy and sacramental practices. It’s possible that parishioners who grew up in such an constantly changing parish environment may have assumed that any new practices were authorized.
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I’m not sure lack of discipline can be blamed on Vatican II. In all of society, discipline as I learned it has taken a beating regardless of religion. My dad and a lot of men like him, put on a suit and tie every morning before going out to work in a fairly low-level job. When I started my career, a clean dress shirt and tie was mandatory. By the end, jeans and an open shirt were acceptable.

I’m not naive enough to believe that if Vatican II didn’t happen, the same indiscipline wouldn’t have crept into the liturgy, though it might have expressed itself differently. In fact it already existed prior to the council. The rubrics were pretty firm about what had to be said and done, but priests took liberties about how quickly they could be said in done no matter if the rubrics specified doing or saying in a reverential manner.
 
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OraLabora said:
how quickly they could be said in done
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This is the issue I have with the pre-mass rosary at the church I go to. They started at 0721. At 0736 they were at Hail holy queen. Sounded like auctioneers arguing.
I mentioned it to the priest who said, “Yes, I know, I can just sit in there, but I can’t talk that fast”.
Rosary’s were smoking after “Amen”. sniffs Hmmmm. Someone has sandalwood! (Not really but you get the idea)
I can’t see reverence, meditation, and such like that. Leave the house 15 minutes sooner, and keep it under 80mph.
Dominus vobiscum
 
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Agnus-Dei said:
This is the issue I have with the pre-mass rosary at the church I go to. They started at 0721. At 0736 they were at Hail holy queen. Sounded like auctioneers arguing.
I mentioned it to
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Goodness! We start 25 minutes before Mass, and sometimes Father has to start Mass a few minutes late.
 
This is usually done in the little side chapel. Last time our “group” was four people. It would have been rude to just “up-an-leave” so I stayed. Ever get rope burn from a rosary?
I have started staying after mass instead. It is nice. Just me, alone, lights off in the church and peace. Sunlight coming in through the stained glass window is plenty enough for me.
Window detail:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Dominus vobiscum
@puer.dei (my “reply to” didn’t work for some reason)
 
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There once were baptisms in the local parish in which each of the parents, and god-parents, had to publicly express some anticipated quality or talent of the candidate. It was like they each were given a list and told to make two selections.

Perhaps there will be a return to private baptisms in the parishes after this high-profile dust-up. Fewer witnesses to possible missteps for one thing.

As to the pre-Mass rosary: I’ve experienced those who can recite an entire Our Father in one breath.
 
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