“A few parishioners left in tears”

[Highwayhound]

"I know that these words of truth will cost me dearly,” Fr. Farrow told KFSN.

Compare these words above to those of my cousin Dennis below

“Be really careful about what you touch.”

My cousin Dennis spoke these words to me when I visited him where he lived in Pacific Beach in San Diego, the year was 1996. This was after completing 1,300 miles of bicycling along the pacific coast of Oregon and California. Upon arriving in San Diego I thought it would be great to visit my cousin. At family reunions over the years we had many good conversations. Dennis was a polite intelligent fellow. I did not have his address or phone number so I telephoned back to Oregon to mom’s to get Dennis’ phone number.

“Say mom do you have Dennis’ phone number? I want to call and see if I can visit him.”

“You know he’s gay, don’t you?”

“No, I didn’t mom.”

It did not matter to me that Dennis was homosexual. I went to visit him. Dennis only let me stay one night at his place because he was so worried about me and my health. Dennis had AIDS and his concern was that I not contact the disease somehow. He was worried about other people first. Dennis died a few years later of the disease.

Compare my cousin and his words to quote from the priest. This priest was first and foremost thinking about himself.

These issues matter. Dennis had a good job and good apartment. He was not discriminated against nor were his human rights being violated. At some point in his life he made a bad choice (haven’t we all). Only his bad choice cost him his life.

The priest also mentions this being a matter of conscience.
The conscience of each individual should formed properly in accordance to God. As a priest he should know this.

People should be treated decently because they are human and thus one of God’s creations. May God have mercy on this priest’s soul.

 

[wanner47]

wanner47:

My dear, I wasn’t making a CLAIM. I was using the vehicle of sarcasm to illustrate my opinion. Everything in this life is not cut and dried, black or white, with 'em or agin 'em.

The light is shining directly on it! It’s only of mild interest to me that you absolutely refuse to look at it.

marietta

So you do believe that homosexual behavior and/or scandal is a sin?

I’m confused. I certainly thought you were serious in this post. I detected no hint of sarcasm.

I stand corrected. In the future, when I see a post authored by you, I will assume that you are employing sarcasm and do not really mean what you say.

Mea culpa.

 

[marietta]

wanner47:

This is not a sarcastic question.

To what specific homosexual behavior do you refer in asking me if I believe it is a sin? Is love a sin? Is intimacy that springs from love a sin?

From what I can gather, I am labeled a relativist here. I am not compelled to keep score and evaluate anyone’s behavior other than my own. If someone’s bad behavior impacts me I move to the left or right, out of the way. Someone else’s “sin” is none of my business unless it impacts me in some harmful, substantial way. The homosexual, active or not, will have to account for both his sinful and his honorable behaviors when facing final judgment. I will not focus my time and attention on what the other guy is doing when there’s plenty of work to be done at home.

marietta

 

[wanner47]

wanner47:

This is not a sarcastic question.

To what specific homosexual behavior do you refer in asking me if I believe it is a sin? Is love a sin? Is intimacy that springs from love a sin?

In the proper marital context between a man and a woman, no, those are not sins. In any other context – whether between a man and a man or a man and a 7-year-old – yes they are.

From what I can gather, I am labeled a relativist here. I am not compelled to keep score and evaluate anyone’s behavior other than my own. If someone’s bad behavior impacts me I move to the left or right, out of the way. Someone else’s “sin” is none of my business unless it impacts me in some harmful, substantial way. The homosexual, active or not, will have to account for both his sinful and his honorable behaviors when facing final judgment. I will not focus my time and attention on what the other guy is doing when there’s plenty of work to be done at home.

marietta

…which is contrary to the message of both Scripture and the Catholic Church.

Does your “If it doesn’t impact me I get out of the way” philosophy also apply to situations like child abuse or pedophelia?

 

[marietta]

Does your “If it doesn’t impact me I get out of the way” philosophy also apply to situations like child abuse or pedophelia?

Depends on whether one or the other impacts me or not.

marietta

 

[wanner47]

Depends on whether one or the other impacts me or not.

marietta

So if you were walking down the street one day and saw someone being beaten to a bloody pulp, you’d do nothing in response since it wasn’t directly impacting you?

And you’d also be perfectly okay if someone, say, saw your mother being beaten to a pulp and did nothing to stop it?

 

[Christy_Beth]

Marietta

You can’t have it both ways. It’s either a sin, or it isn’t. So you’ve been celibate for ten years. So what? Were you in sin when you conceived your three children? Didn’t that have an impact on you?

 

[estesbob]

wanner47:

To what specific homosexual behavior do you refer in asking me if I believe it is a sin? Is love a sin? Is intimacy that springs from love a sin?

marietta

Marietta:

Of course love can be a sin. Love of money, excessive love of oneself couple are a couple of examples. And of course intimacy that springs from “love” can be a sin. Incest, adultery , premarital sex and homosexual behavior are the best examples of this.

Claiming love is not a get out of jail free card that allows one to engage in any behavior they want under the mantle of love.

 

[marietta]

estesbob:

Love of money is not love, it is greed.
Excessive love of oneself is not love, it is narcissism.
Incest, adultery, and premarital sex are largely driven by lust, not love.

In other words, estesbob, “Claiming love is not a get out of jail free card that allows one to engage in any behavior they want under the mantle of love” is correct.

I’m back to the question of homosexual “behavior”. One man loving another man is not sinful. One man engaging in sexual activity with another man is between them and God. It is none of my business. It has no impact or effect on me whatever.

Christy Beth writes:

“You can’t have it both ways. It’s either a sin, or it isn’t.”

I would not presume to have it either way. One’s sinfulness or non-sinfulness is between him or her and God. I and my opinion have no place in the equation.

“Were you in sin when you conceived your three children? Didn’t that have an impact on you?”

My actions, sinful or not, were and are between God and me. You and your opinion have no place in the equation.

wanner47 writtes:

“So if you were walking down the street one day and saw someone being beaten to a bloody pulp, you’d do nothing in response since it wasn’t directly impacting you?”

You presume that this event would have no impact on me. You have no way of evaluating this variable.

“And you’d also be perfectly okay if someone, say, saw your mother being beaten to a pulp and did nothing to stop it?”

I cannot control the actions of others. And using someone’s mother - someone’s dead mother at that - is truly taking the low road; it’s one step from “Yo mama wears combat boots.”

marietta

 

[Christy_Beth]

Marietta

You were the one who brought up the subject of someone’s “sinful” behavior. So, you were judging from your view point. You can’t back away from that now. You painted yourself into a corner, and it amuses me to see you trying to get out of it. You say you don’t answer to any one but God. But we all have to answer to each other as well. Would you want your kids to have kids without getting married? Who would that benefit?

Or, is our set of consequences merely an inconvienence? God has set thos consequences, not me. Nor anyone else here for that matter. You wanted the “light” to shine on the truth as you put it. But as soon as someone starts looking closer at you, it suddenly doesn’t matter.

Does you having three kids as a single mom not affect me? It does. Or, I should say, it affects my daughter. She’s an adult now, but if she were to look at you, what would she think? That its ok to have sex outside of marriage? Perhaps. No consequences for sin? According to you, no.

As you said, we all have to face God someday to account for our actions. And that includes the “occasion” of sin. Our acting on the truth of what we believe, the scandal we cause. And you seem bent on creating scandal and trying to squirm out of it. Maybe you should go look in the mirror for an honest look before you post here again. Do you really love the judgmental person you are? Or, as the saying goes, since when did God die and leave you in charge?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

This “priest” planned this event to cause maximum scandal to the Church. He even went so far as to contact the news media so he could maximize the scandal. Scandal and disobedience are the fruit of letting homosexuals into the clergy. The Vatican has stated that they should not be ordained. The dioceses in California that insist on going against the Vatican and ordaining homosexuals are reaping what they sow with this outright disobedience and its resulting scandal.

 

[marietta]

Christy Beth:

Please direct my attention to the post where I “brought up the subject of someone’s sinful behavior”. Enlighten me as to how I am attempting to “back away from that now”.

If my barren daughter were to have a child out of wedlock I would be ecstatic (and rich, I suppose).

To what “set of consequences” are you referring when you suggest that perhaps I find them “inconvenient”? This is an unfinished thought and I am interested to know what the complete idea is.

I never said I had three kids as a single mom. You assume you have been affected by events which have not occurred. Can you explain that? How does my behavior directly affect your daughter? And have you raised her to think for herself or to just parrot your beliefs? Why should it be of any significance to me what your daughter thinks? Does she truly jump to a snap judgment about a person’s character just by looking at him or her, as you suggest?

I never said there were no consequences for sin. As I explained, the consequences come directly from God, either in how we must continue to live our lives here or how we will pay for redemption.

*“And you seem bent on creating scandal and trying to squirm out of it,” *you accuse. “Maybe you should go look in the mirror for an honest look before you post here again. Do you really love the judgmental person you are? Or, as the saying goes, since when did God die and leave you in charge?”

I do love myself most days; other days it’s an uphill trudge. I don’t consider myself to be “in charge” - quite the opposite. If amends are to be made for my transgressions I make them. When God calls me home or sends me packing, I’m sure He will handle my occasions of sin, my sins, my “scandals” (whatever that means) with justice and mercy.

marietta

 

[as-a-child]

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

If you are a baptized christian then you are a member of the body of Christ, an all sin ( even the sin of indifference) wounds the body which is Christ body.

so then abels question to GOD still is relevent to this day, Am i my brothers keeper?

Yes, yes you are.

 

[marietta]

as-a-child:

No, no, it means that YOU are your brother’s keeper. You choose your faith, you sign on for all the trimmings.

I did not choose Catholicism or even Christianity. I do not consider myself my brother’s keeper. This does not exclude the possibility that I may be of some help to another person if asked.

marietta

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Wouldn’t it be fabulous if everyone were celibate for a year? That way we could all understand the demands the Church makes upon its priests.

Everyone who reaches puberty…before marriage…is supposed to be celibate. I believe that this celibacy lasts far longer than a year. We are all called to be celibate who are not married in the eyes of God.

 

[estesbob]

Love of money is not love, it is greed.
Excessive love of oneself is not love, it is narcissism.
Incest, adultery, and premarital sex are largely driven by lust, not love.

In other words, estesbob, “Claiming love is not a get out of jail free card that allows one to engage in any behavior they want under the mantle of love” is correct.

I’m back to the question of homosexual “behavior”. One man loving another man is not sinful. One man engaging in sexual activity with another man is between them and God. It is none of my business. It has no impact or effect on me whatever.

You have nothing to base this on other than your feelings. I know that I cannot trust my feelings to tell me what is right and wrong. Years of experience tell me that but thankfully I have the church to fall back on. One the great joys of being a Catholic is all the heavy lifting was done for us over the last 2000 years. We don’t have to figure everything out for ourselves. When we try to do that we end up with a mishmash of moral beliefs based on nothing more than how we* feel* about something.

I hope that the definition of sin is never going to be anything that there is no impact on me is okay.

 

[estesbob]

as-a-child:

No, no, it means that YOU are your brother’s keeper. You choose your faith, you sign on for all the trimmings.

I did not choose Catholicism or even Christianity. I do not consider myself my brother’s keeper. This does not exclude the possibility that I may be of some help to another person if asked.

marietta

In the discussion we’re having is useless because we have no common point discussion on. Most of us in this thread here to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You disagree with them and say you prefer to go with your personal opinions about things. You have created your own theology, your own morality, your own definition of sin. Since will not accept any higher authority than yourself it is useless to debate the issue with you.

I’ve read a lot of your posts and it appears to me that this theology you have created causes you a lot of pain and angst. Or perhaps the pain and angst caused you to embrace this theology It seems like you’re in a never ending struggle to prove to us that our beliefs are narrowminded and in wrong and yet all you can offer us is your personal feelings about it. Believe me Marietta I do not have all the answers. In fact I don’t even know what most of the questions are. But the church does. And once I turned my life over to God and the guidane of his church I have known nothing but great joy.

. As I’ve told you before you are in my prayers. I apologize if any of my posts to you have come across as attacks or as mocking or belittling you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I found the Bishop’s response puzzling. According the the article, he said

How is proposition 8 not about the legal rights of gay people? Isn’t the whole point of prop 8 to deny gay people certain rights? Why does the Bishop feel the need to side step that?

Because Proposition 8 is about marriage being between one man and one woman. It isn’t about homosexuality, or cats marrying dogs, or pigs flying, or anything other than what it is about. Why should he have talked about anything else.

P.S. I was NOT trying in any way to imply that homosexuality is about cats, dogs, or pigs. I love people who happen to be homosexual…they deserve love and total dignity. They are not man and woman, though. Therefore, they cannot be truly married.

 

[marietta]

Jesus N Cherie writes:

“Everyone who reaches puberty…before marriage…is supposed to be celibate.”

Do you actually believe I was referring to children when I remarked that it might be fabulous if everyone were celibate for a year? Or is that just a sweet diversion to take the focus off the subject?

Is it that everyone who reaches puberty is “supposed to be celibate”, or is it that everyone who has not yet married is “supposed to be celibate”? Or maybe you mean that everyone who, unremarkably, reaches puberty before marriage is supposed to be celibate - is that it?

Catholicism is so confusing!

marietta

 

[marietta]

We don’t have to figure everything out for ourselves.

I prefer to figure things out for myself. And you, estesbob, have nothing to base your faith on but what you have been told by Roman Catholic hierarchy. The beauty and the safety of your situation is that you don’t have to think. It’s all been done for you over the last 2,000 years, right?

marietta