“A few parishioners left in tears”

[marietta]

estesbob:

I thought a discussion was communication between people with differing points of view, where the pros and cons of a subject are considered.

Didn’t know that we all had to agree on everything all the time. As usual, someone has given me the wrong rule book.

marietta

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

estesbob:

Love of money is not love, it is greed. No, greed is love of money or possessions.

Excessive love of oneself is not love, it is narcissism. NO, narcissism is escessive love of oneself.
Incest, adultery, and premarital sex are largely driven by lust, not love.
Yes, but do the people who engage in these actions always realize they are not love?

In other words, estesbob, “Claiming love is not a get out of jail free card that allows one to engage in any behavior they want under the mantle of love” is correct.

I’m back to the question of homosexual “behavior”. One man loving another man is not sinful. One man engaging in sexual activity with another man is between them and God.

B]NO, it impacts society as a whole. i.e. the whole point of Propositoin 8. It is society’s business. We have a moral obligation to tell the world the TRUTH about Jesus Christ. And we have an obligation to all of mankind to help them live lives that will bring them closer to Heaven. It was a command given by Christ “Go out and make disciples of all nations.” No, we are not to force anyone to accept Jesus…but it is our obligation to do what we can to keep sin from being promoted. And any sex outside of the bonds of matrimony is a sin. We should never legalize that which is sinful.

It is none of my business. It has no impact or effect on me whatever.

Christy Beth writes:

“You can’t have it both ways. It’s either a sin, or it isn’t.”

I would not presume to have it either way. One’s sinfulness or non-sinfulness is between him or her and God. I and my opinion have no place in the equation.

“Were you in sin when you conceived your three children? Didn’t that have an impact on you?”

My actions, sinful or not, were and are between God and me. You and your opinion have no place in the equation.

wanner47 writtes:

“So if you were walking down the street one day and saw someone being beaten to a bloody pulp, you’d do nothing in response since it wasn’t directly impacting you?”

You presume that this event would have no impact on me. You have no way of evaluating this variable.

We are left, because of your words, to believe that if it doesn’t impact your person, it doesn’t affect you. Therefore, we can logically assume that you think you would not be impacted by it, and therefore do nothing about it…including caring about it.

“And you’d also be perfectly okay if someone, say, saw your mother being beaten to a pulp and did nothing to stop it?”

I cannot control the actions of others. And using someone’s mother - someone’s dead mother at that - is truly taking the low road; it’s one step from “Yo mama wears combat boots.”

marietta

 

[estesbob]

I prefer to figure things out for myself. And you, estesbob, have nothing to base your faith on but what you have been told by Roman Catholic hierarchy. The beauty and the safety of your situation is that you don’t have to think. It’s all been done for you over the last 2,000 years, right?

marietta

Absolutely. I cannot believe in a God who is so callous as it leave it up in the individual to figure something as important as eternal salvation out for themselves. The Catholic Church and Jesus Christ are one in the same. The hierarchy didn’t tell me what to think- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ told me through his Church what the truth was.

It appears that you have let your dislike for the hierarchy of the church and your personal feelings on morality leads you to reject any truths other than those that you are comfortable with. In your theology there is no need for any Church, any study, any uncomfortable thoughts about what is right and wrong. You personally decide what the truth and create a theology to support it. Is that kind of attitude that has resulted in the mass confusion and dueling theologies we have seen since the Reformation. You don’t have to think at all-you just make it up as you go along.

 

[estesbob]

estesbob:

I thought a discussion was communication between people with differing points of view, where the pros and cons of a subject are considered.

Didn’t know that we all had to agree on everything all the time. As usual, someone has given me the wrong rule book.

marietta

But you reject everything we base our beliefs on. And then you ask us to accept your beliefs based on nothing more than they are your opinion. Where is the basis for discussion in that?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

This “priest” planned this event to cause maximum scandal to the Church. He even went so far as to contact the news media so he could maximize the scandal. Scandal and disobedience are the fruit of letting homosexuals into the clergy. The Vatican has stated that they should not be ordained. The dioceses in California that insist on going against the Vatican and ordaining homosexuals are reaping what they sow with this outright disobedience and its resulting scandal.

I am not disagreeing, but I do question. Why would the Vatican have a problem with homosexual priests if they are celibate? I would sincerely like to know the answer. Do you know what it is, or where I could find the answer? Much appreciation from me if you could help. Thanks.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

In the discussion we’re having is useless because we have no common point discussion on. Most of us in this thread here to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You disagree with them and say you prefer to go with your personal opinions about things. You have created your own theology, your own morality, your own definition of sin. Since will not accept any higher authority than yourself it is useless to debate the issue with you.

I’ve read a lot of your posts and it appears to me that this theology you have created causes you a lot of pain and angst. Or perhaps the pain and angst caused you to embrace this theology It seems like you’re in a never ending struggle to prove to us that our beliefs are narrowminded and in wrong and yet all you can offer us is your personal feelings about it. Believe me Marietta I do not have all the answers. In fact I don’t even know what most of the questions are. But the church does. And once I turned my life over to God and the guidane of his church I have known nothing but great joy.

. As I’ve told you before you are in my prayers. I apologize if any of my posts to you have come across as attacks or as mocking or belittling you.

Good post!!!

 

[marietta]

**Christy Beth writes: **

Love of money is not love, it is greed. “No, greed is love of money or possessions.”

Excessive love of oneself is not love, it is narcissism. “NO, narcissism is escessive love of oneself.”

What is the purpose of rephrasing what I have said? I don’t understand why at this point you choose to champion my thoughts!

Incest, adultery, and premarital sex are largely driven by lust, not love.
“Yes, but do the people who engage in these actions always realize they are not love?”
I have no idea, but, again, it’s not my concern.

Proposition 8 is the business of those who feel as if its passing or not passing will affect their lives in some way. It is not the concern of society as a whole.

“We are left, because of your words, to believe that if it doesn’t impact your person, it doesn’t affect you. Therefore, we can logically assume that you think you would not be impacted by it, and therefore do nothing about it…including caring about it.”

You are attempting to goad me into providing you a definition of the variable. It is none of your concern how I would view this event. I might tell you one thing here and tomorrow react differently; none of us has an emotional compass which points true north in every single circumstance. But what does it matter? I would do what I thought was appropriate at that moment and you would do the same; neither of us is accountable to the other - we are only accountable to God.

marietta

 

[marietta]

estesbob claims:

“But you reject everything we base our beliefs on. And then you ask us to accept your beliefs based on nothing more than they are your opinion. Where is the basis for discussion in that?”

I reject much of what you base your beliefs on. I have NEVER asked you or anyone on this forum to accept my beliefs.

So discussion requires that there be a winner?

marietta

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Jesus N Cherie writes:

“Everyone who reaches puberty…before marriage…is supposed to be celibate.”

Do you actually believe I was referring to children when I remarked that it might be fabulous if everyone were celibate for a year? Or is that just a sweet diversion to take the focus off the subject?Not a chance. I was not a “child” when I gave over into sin at the age of 16. Nor was I a child at 22 when I was having sex outside of marriage and got pregnant (I now have the most wonderful daughter I could have ever imagined.) Nor was I a child at other points in my adult life when I was seriously sinning. That was not the point. The point was, everyone is supposed to know what it means to be celibate. That state of being, or struggle, is not isolated to homosexuals. Everyone shares in it…or else falls into sin. Thanks be to God that He didn’t abandon me to His Justice, but instead called me home to His Church through the Sacrament of Confession.

Is it that everyone who reaches puberty is “supposed to be celibate”, or is it that everyone who has not yet married is “supposed to be celibate”? Or maybe you mean that everyone who, unremarkably, reaches puberty before marriage is supposed to be celibate - is that it?Actually, all of the above. What is the problem with that? I have been celibate for a long time now.

Catholicism is so confusing! I am sorry that you are confused. Fact is, it is the greatest of all places to come to the TRUTH of God, yourself, and the relationships between people. It is the place that you can love the sinner, but hate the sin. It is the place where forgiveness abounds…as does the Mercy of Jesus Christ for all of those who REPENT!!! And we would love for you to come and be a part of us. You are always welcome. And that is not me inviting you, but Jesus Who says "Come, follow Me."

marietta

 

[marietta]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . .

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I prefer to figure things out for myself. And you, estesbob, have nothing to base your faith on but what you have been told by Roman Catholic hierarchy. The beauty and the safety of your situation is that you don’t have to think. It’s all been done for you over the last 2,000 years, right?

marietta

Catholic Faith is also an experience. We experience the TRUTH, else why else would we not be doing something else on a Saturday night other than trying to share the TRUTH.

We are not parots. We don’t just speak what we have heard.
We are witnesses. We see Him in the Eucharist. We hear His Word.

This witness we give to you. It’s who we are, it’s what we do.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I actually live IN Visalia, CA, the town where this priest has resided for years now as pastor. I attended only one Mass with this guy about 8 years ago as I go to the other church, St. Mary’s, another parish here in Visalia. I work with people that go to Holy Family, this priest’s old parish, and they just LOVED him and swore by him. He’s supposed to be very intellectual and insightful about the Church. A teacher that I work with at my school actually has worked closely with Fr. Farrow for years now doing religious ed (catechism) and she adored him. She’s going to be shocked by this! He left Holy Family to go up to Fresno about four or five months ago. What a bummer.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

I am not disagreeing, but I do question. Why would the Vatican have a problem with homosexual priests if they are celibate? I would sincerely like to know the answer. Do you know what it is, or where I could find the answer? Much appreciation from me if you could help. Thanks.

The document is called
Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

(click here for a link to the document)

by the CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

It states in part:

Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

The topic of this thread, before it got derailed, was about a priest in the Fresno diocese who staged an event where he announced his dissent from the Church’s stated position on Proposition 8 and also announced that he was homosexual. He did this in a way to cause maximum scandal and embarrassment to the Church. This seems to me to be a good example of why homosexuals should not be ordained.

 

[marietta]

Mea Culpa:

“He did this in a way to cause maximum scandal and embarrassment to the Church. This seems to me to be a good example of why homosexuals should not be ordained.”

Would this not be simply a reason why any man should not be ordained, and not a homosexual in particular?

marietta

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The document is called
Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

(click here for a link to the document)

by the CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

It states in part:

Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

The topic of this thread, before it got derailed, was about a priest in the Fresno diocese who staged an event where he announced his dissent from the Church’s stated position on Proposition 8 and also announced that he was homosexual. He did this in a way to cause maximum scandal and embarrassment to the Church. This seems to me to be a good example of why homosexuals should not be ordained.

Thank you. I understand better now. It is with good reason…as the Fresno priest illustrated. I appreciate you posting it for me. God bless you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Mea Culpa:

“He did this in a way to cause maximum scandal and embarrassment to the Church. This seems to me to be a good example of why homosexuals should not be ordained.”

Would this not be simply a reason why any man should not be ordained, and not a homosexual in particular?

marietta

No. Because a man without deep seated moral issues would be far less likely to cause scandal to the Church…which is sinful.

 

[marietta]

Jesus N Cherie:

Am I to understand, then, that only a homosexual man can harbor a deep-seated moral issue? Are heterosexual men exempt from any such character defect?

marietta

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Jesus N Cherie:

Am I to understand, then, that only a homosexual man can harbor a deep-seated moral issue? Are heterosexual men exempt from any such character defect?

marietta

No, that understanding would be wrong. No man with a deep seated moral issue can/should become a priest…and for the same reason.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Add on to above post.

There is supposed to be much that goes into the discernment before a man becomes a priest.
Any man found to have deep seated moral issues are not allowed to become priests.

It is not an act of prejudice or maliciousness. For you see, when a man is ordained as a priest…he then has the ability to affect uncountable spiritual lives.

Take the priest in Fresno for example. He caused scandal by actively showing disobedience to his superiors which were speaking for the Roman Catholic Church.

The priest who have been the cause of the molestation scandal. The priests who have been the cause of money scandal. The priests who have been the cause of heterosexual/homosexual sexual relations scandals.

The devil uses those things to try to make people believe that the Catholic Church is nothing special. And he succeeds. Which is a reason why it is a sin.

The Catholic Church is not a “Be anything that you want to be” institution.
Catholics assume of each other that we are each, individually and as a whole following God’s Will for the Church and our lives. We do not decide what God’s Will is.
The Holy Spirit leads us into a full knowledge of what He wants.

And it is the responsibility of the Bishops and Priests to tell the people…lead the people…to that fullness of TRUTH. That is what the Bishop did, and the priest did just the opposite.

“To thine own self be true” is a great statement…if used correctly. Be true to yourself in acknowledging whether or not you are guilty of sinning against Jesus Christ.
Be true to yourself in acknowledging to your Bishop that there is a deep seated moral issue which is getting in the way of your performing your priestly obligations to the congregation.

The subject of homosexuality has not just been brought up. This is how it has been forever in the Church. So, when the Bishop wrote the letter for all priests to read at the Masses last Sunday, he was just reinstating what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. The priest knew he was going against all that the priesthood stood for when he made the announcement to the congregation, and then to the media. He was trying to cause a scandal. Had he NOT been trying to cause a scandal, he could have gone to his Bishop and talked with him. If he did not come to where he realized the TRUTH of what the Church teaches, and was able to follow it…he should have informed his Bishop…who should have removed his priestly duties until the Priest could have been transfered to a place where he could either resolve this issue within himself, or leave the priesthood.

This was not something that should have been aired in front of the congregation, or on the news. He wanted to divide, and he wanted to scandalize.

Lord, Jesus, You are THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. Please have mercy on this priest, and all others. Let them be convicted of THE TRUTH, and let them turn back to the fullness of Your Truth with all of their hearts. Lord, Jesus, save them please. Holy Mary, Mother of God, please intercede for this priest, and all others. Amen.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Add on to above post.

There is supposed to be much that goes into the discernment before a man becomes a priest.
Any man found to have deep seated moral issues is not allowed to become a priest.

This is not an act of prejudice or maliciousness. For you see, when a man is ordained as a priest…he then has the ability to affect uncountable spiritual lives.

Take the priest in Fresno for example. His deep seated moral issue caused him to create scandal by actively showing disobedience to his superiors which were speaking for the Roman Catholic Church.

Others are:
The priests who have been the cause of the molestation scandal. The priests who have been the cause of money scandal. The priests who have been the cause of heterosexual/homosexual sexual relations scandals.

The devil uses those things to try to make people believe that the Catholic Church is nothing special. And that She is separated from God. And he succeeds. Which is a reason why it is a sin.

The Catholic Church is not a “Be anything that you want to be” institution.
Catholics assume of each other that we are each, individually and as a whole following God’s Will for the Church and our lives. We do not decide what God’s Will is.
The Holy Spirit leads us into a full knowledge of His Truth, and His Will. And what people think to be truth must be tested by the TRUTH found in Scripture and Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church…which Christ Jesus is Head of.

And it is the responsibility of the Bishops and Priests to tell the people…lead the people…to that fullness of TRUTH. That is what the Bishop did, and the priest did just the opposite.

“To thine own self be true” is a great statement…if used correctly. Be true to yourself in acknowledging whether or not you are guilty of sinning against Jesus Christ.
Be true to yourself in acknowledging to your Bishop that there is a deep seated moral issue which is getting in the way of your performing your priestly obligations to the congregation.

The subject of homosexuality has not just been brought up. This is how it has been forever in the Church.

So, when the Bishop wrote the letter for all priests to read at the Masses last Sunday, he was just reinstating what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

The priest knew he was going against all that the priesthood stood for when he made the announcement to the congregation, and then to the media.

He was trying to cause a scandal.

Had he NOT been trying to cause a scandal, he could have gone to his Bishop and talked with him. If he did not come to where he realized the TRUTH of what the Church teaches, and was able to follow it…he should have informed his Bishop…who should have removed his priestly duties until the Priest could have been transfered to a place where he could either resolve this issue within himself, or leave the priesthood.

This was not something that should have been aired in front of the congregation, or on the news. He wanted to divide, and he wanted to scandalize.

Lord, Jesus, You are THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. Please have mercy on this priest, and all others. Let them be convicted of THE TRUTH, and let them turn back to the fullness of Your Truth with all of their hearts. Lord, Jesus, save them please. Holy Mary, Mother of God, please intercede for this priest, and all others. Amen.