“Ascension” does not make Jesus, God

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Sometimes ago I sent a post on the thread “Elijah” in the Apologetics sub-Forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=168862&highlight=Elijah

The discussion there did not cover the points mentioned in my post. I give the post hereunder for discussion and understanding:

Hi

Please don’t mind it. Elijah went to heaven alongwith his chariot and horses on a whirlwind as per OT long before Jesus was even born. The true answer should be from the OTBible for a claim and reason on the issue. This also proves that ascension does not transform a man to god. Elijah ascended to heaven as per OTBible;

1. What is or was his utility there if he was not to return literally or physically before Jesus as prophesized in OTBible? Jews were waiting for him in fact and asked Jesus about his descent from him. Jesus told that John the Baptist is Elijah and when they asked John about this he denied that he was Elijah.
2. What about the chariot and horses; what are they doing there?
3. Why this solitary confinement/punishment for Elijah?
4. Elijah did not become god because of ascension, so can’t Jesus.

I think that these and perhaps many more questions were being asked by the common man from the Catholic Clergy, finding no rational or reasonable answers from the OTBible, they prepared such answers as an eyewash, perhaps a brainchild of their imaginations. My Catholic friends are free to believe whatever they wish to, it is their discretion, no compulsion. I respect your religions.
Thanks

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Hi

1.What is or was his utility there if he was not to return literally or physically before Jesus as prophesized in OTBible? Jews were waiting for him in fact and asked Jesus about his descent from him. Jesus told that John the Baptist is Elijah and when they asked John about this he denied that he was Elijah.
2.What about the chariot and horses; what are they doing there?
3.Why this solitary confinement/punishment for Elijah?
4.Elijah did not become god because of ascension, so can’t Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus- now understand this- was both God and man simultaneously. When he prayed, he prayed as a human, but he was fully human and fully God. He didnt become God at the Ascention beacuse He already was God.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Elijah was taken up into heaven without dying. He is one of the two witnesses who will be killed by the Antichrist.

Jesus, h owever, is both God and Man. He truly died and rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven by His own divine power.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Hi

.My Catholic friends are free to believe whatever they wish to, it is their discretion, no compulsion. I respect your religions.
Thanks
.

and our ‘ahmadi’ poster is evidently free to post whatever silly stuff he feels attacks our beliefs with no discretion and an insistent compulsion evidencing no respect for our beliefs.

Go in peace

Robert

 

[PaulDupre]

This also proves that ascension does not transform a man to god.

Christians have never claimed that Jesus was transformed into a god at his ascension. We believe that he was always God the Son before, during, and after his life on earth. He was never transformed into anything.

Paarsurrey, with all due respect, if you want to dialog with Christians, you should go learn something about what Christians believe and teach. It is obvious that you haven’t a clue. And making assertions like the one you did here just makes you look ignorant and foolish, and reflects very badly on your religion.

Best wishes,
Paul

 

[hosemonkey]

Paarsurry,
You need to find a hobby or make some new friends or get out of the house more often. Your whakko comments are making my head hurt.

 

[adrift]

Please don’t mind it. Elijah went to heaven alongwith his chariot and horses on a whirlwind as per OT long before Jesus was even born. The true answer should be from the OTBible for a claim and reason on the issue. This also proves that ascension does not transform a man to god. Elijah ascended to heaven as per OTBible

Sadly, it doesn’t seem that you read the replies in your link

To ascend means to do so on your own power only God can do that. Elijah was taken.

May I suggest you invest in Wuest’s translation of the NT?
Yes, Wuest is a prostant translation, but he goes overboard in bringing out the meaning of Greek verbs, and that is helpful in understanding that text.

Basically, no one under their own POWER ascended to heaven expect Jesus. It is really that simple.

The Fact that Jesus ascended proves He is God.

 

[adrift]

Jesus told that John the Baptist is Elijah and when they asked John about this he denied that he was Elijah.

Luke 1 13-17

13
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John.
14
And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,
15
for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. 6 He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb,
16
and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
17
He will go before him** in the spirit and power of Elijah **to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord.”

John 1 19,

And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, “Who are you?” …
23
He said: “I am ‘the voice of one crying out in the desert, “Make straight the way of the Lord,”’ 17 as Isaiah the prophet said.”
24
Some Pharisees 18 were also sent.
25
They asked him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah or Elijah or the Prophet?”
26
John answered them, “I baptize with water; 19 but there is one among you whom you do not recognize,
27
the one who is coming after me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to untie.”
28
This happened in Bethany across the Jordan, 20 where John was baptizing.
29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

You should put away your blind faith and start basing it on truth.

 

[Leopard]

“Ascension” does not make Jesus, God

You are absolutely correct. Ascension does not make Jesus God. The fact that Jesus is the second Person of the Holy Trinity makes Jesus God. Jesus would still be God if he had never effected that transition from Earth to Heaven that we call the Ascension

 

[dolphinlove]

Paars,
I really think you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel trying to find things to discredit Christianity.
I think its time you opened your heart and soul to Jesus, it helps…
Regards
Dolphy

 

[Peregrino]

Paars,
I really think you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel trying to find things to discredit Christianity.
I think its time you opened your heart and soul to Jesus, it helps…
Regards
Dolphy

I don’t think Paarsurrey has a problem with Jesus, in fact being a Muslim he recognizes him as something special, just not special enough to be considered God.

Paarsurrey is trying to do with Islam what others do with Christianty-bring people to his truth. At the very least, ya gotta respect his determination! The guy just doesn’t stop and at least he conducts himself with respect for other’s beliefs while on this forum. Sadly, that is more that I can say for some of the Catholics…

 

[dolphinlove]

I don’t think Paarsurrey has a problem with Jesus, in fact being a Muslim he recognizes him as something special, just not special enough to be considered God.

Paarsurrey is trying to do with Islam what others do with Christianty-bring people to his truth. At the very least, ya gotta respect his determination! The guy just doesn’t stop and at least he conducts himself with respect for other’s beliefs while on this forum. Sadly, that is more that I can say for some of the Catholics…

Hi,
No i know he doesnt have a problem with Jesus, when i said open up to him, i mean to open up to Jesus the way us Christians do.
Determination is an understatement! lol
He has got more determination than a climber on mt everest!

 

[Nepenthe]

Mostly, it just seems to me that paarsurrey is neither Christian nor and 1st language english speaker. Of course ,so many of these things seems strange and alien to him, as do so many of the things he espouses seem strange and alien to quite a few people here! I don’t understand most any of the lot of you, from anywhere or of any religion, but peace be upon us all.

Paarsurrey has shown himself to be a kind person and very game as a netizen. I gather Elijah has the full support as prophet and holy assumpted thingy (well, I can’t just go throwing the word ‘saint’ around, right?) of all you Abrahamics though?

 

[LilyM]

Mostly, it just seems to me that paarsurrey is neither Christian nor and 1st language english speaker. Of course ,so many of these things seems strange and alien to him, as do so many of the things he espouses seem strange and alien to quite a few people here! I don’t understand most any of the lot of you, from anywhere or of any religion, but peace be upon us all.

Paarsurrey has shown himself to be a kind person and very game as a netizen. I gather Elijah has the full support as prophet and holy assumpted thingy (well, I can’t just go throwing the word ‘saint’ around, right?) of all you Abrahamics though?

Yes that’s the technical term - ‘holy assumpted thingy’

Yes he was an incredibly holy man and an incredibly great prophet and a saint (he served and loved God heroically - as God had revealed Himself in Elijah’s time) and was indeed ‘assumed’ (not assumpted).

In fact one of our Catholic religious orders, the Carmelites, regard the prophet Elijah as one of the founders of their order. Not quite sure how that works but there you have it.

 

[FCEGM]

In fact one of our Catholic religious orders, the Carmelites, regard the prophet Elijah as one of the founders of their order. Not quite sure how that works but there you have it.

Lily, St. Elijah is not seen as the juridical founder of Carmelites, but as the spiritual founder; i.e., it is his example of zeal for the Lord and His Truth and his intimacy with God that has led the way for all Carmelites (the Order being founded on Mount Carmel in the 1200’s.)