“Dare We Hope…”

[Bill_johnson]

I know Balthasar does not explicitly support a universalist position, but rather believes due to the perfect sacrifice of Christ and the power of the act on the cross, that we can and should fairly reasonably hope that all men are saved. However I know many who say that those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell, no questions asked. However I also know many people who pray the DMC each day for those who have died in a state of mortal sin. Is Balthasar correct, should we pray for those who die in a state of mortal sin or is there no use praying for them?

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

How would we ever know someone died in a state of mortal sin?

 

[Fauken]

Is Balthasar correct, should we pray for those who die in a state of mortal sin or is there no use praying for them?

Of course we should! They might have had perfect contrition at the moment of their deaths and could be in purgatory. But those in mortal sin still must choose to accept those graces. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.

 

[Socrates92]

Those that die in the state of mortal sin are damned. We cannot know for sure, before the final judgement who those souls are, and you should never presume any particular soul did in fact die in mortal sin (with the arguable exception of Judas, whom Christ seems to make a pretty definitive statement on).

 

[Bill_johnson]

You don’t have to know specifically of any person, I mean just offering a general intention, just as we can’t know if someone is in purgatory yet we still pray for them

 

[Socrates92]

Bill_johnson:

Is Balthasar correct, should we pray for those who die in a state of mortal sin or is there no use praying for them?

Those who have perfect contrition at their deaths, do not, by definition, die in the state of mortal sin.

 

[Socrates92]

You don’t have to know specifically of any person, I mean just offering a general intention, just as we can’t know if someone is in purgatory yet we still pray for them

If that is what you meant, then yes you should pray for them. There is never a case really where it is wrong to pray for a deceased person. That person may or may not be damned, but God doesn’t expect us to be privy to that knowledge.

 

[Bill_johnson]

So you’re saying someone in a state of mortal sin can be given and therefore have perfect contrition without going to confession?

 

[Fauken]

True, I read that as are in mortal sin then charges it after I saw the died part.

 

[Bill_johnson]

Would God really allow someone to choose after they die as they’re standing before Him? I mean what kind of clown could stand before God and say, “Nah, I don’t love you and I don’t care.”?

EDIT: actually I guess the fallen angels did that

 

[Socrates92]

So you’re saying someone in a state of mortal sin can be given and therefore have perfect contrition without going to confession?

Apart from sacramental confession and at least imperfect contrition, perfect contrition is the only other way to be forgiven one’s mortal sins, yes. Everything I’ve ever heard or read says that it’s no easy feat though.

 

[Francis]

However I also know many people who pray the DMC each day for those who have died in a state of mortal sin

no use. if your very sure he or she is leading a sinful life,it all depends upon the mercy of the Lord we never know fully

should we pray for those who die in a state of mortal sin or is there no use praying for them?

there is no use for praying for them.as in Luke 16: 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. 24 He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’ 27 He said, ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’ 30 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

Jeremiah 11:14 As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer on their behalf, for I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their trouble. 15 What right has my beloved in my house, when she has done vile deeds? Can vows and sacrificial flesh avert your doom? Can you then exult? 16 The Lord once called you, “A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit”; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed. 17 The Lord of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you, because of the evil that the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done, provoking me to anger by making offerings to Baal.

1 John 5:16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

 

[Bill_johnson]

Yeah my spiritual director told me once (we got a little off topic obviously) that God can forgive you outside of the confessional, that there are no limits to his mercy. However he also said that true, perfect contrition is almost impossible and that some would argue that it is impossible.

 

[GLam1761]

Hi Bill_johnson, The Bible specifically
recommends us to pray for those
who has venially sinned “sin not leading
to death” but I have trouble w/ the en-
joinment to NOT pray for those who sin-
ned Mortally. Perhaps what the scripture
means is that we should forget about
those who are officially ex-communicated
by the Church? See 1 Jn. 5:16-18; Matt.
18:15-17

 

[Bill_johnson]

Have you done the office of readings today? Well technically it was yesterday but:
Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out.

 

[Francis]

Have you done the office of readings today? Well technically it was yesterday but:
Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out.

Please read my post again

no use. if your very sure he or she is leading a sinful life it all depends upon the mercy of the Lord we never know fully

 

[Bill_johnson]

So basically we don’t know. I suppose one shouldn’t place limits on God’s mercy nor rule out His justice.

 

[christofirst]

I just finished reading this book, which provides a brief history of those prominent Christians who held a universalist position to varying degrees, both Catholic and Protestant. I came away strengthened in my hope that all indeed may be saved, even though we cannot know for certain, and also acknowledging that many if not most Catholics do not hold this position.

Amazon.com

 

[Bill_johnson]

So you would say you definitely trust more in God’s great mercy?

 

[christofirst]

Personally, yes, though I take nothing for granted. I try to live my life remembering that hell is a very real and possible destination, but I pray and hope that God’s grace will somehow get through to all of us before we die, even if it’s at the very moment of death, so that we will accept and make the right choice before it’s too late.