“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Nicea325]

Jesus never referred to Macabees because it was not considered scripture by the Jews. When eternity is referenced in the NT it is clear there are only two destinations after death. No middle ground. 2 Chor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Not entirely true. There was not set canon during Jesus’ lifetime as to what constituted the OT Bible. The Sadducees rejected writings outside the Pentateuch and some other Jews accepted books,which did not make the Jewish OT canon. There is no concrete evidence Jesus’ NEVER used the 7 books AT ALL .

Nonetheless, the early Christians considered Macabees as scripture,thus the Septuagint was the Christian Bible. Protestants chose to follow the Jewish OT canon,so be it! All the ancient liturgical churches (Catholic,Coptic,Orthodox,etc) chose to stick to the ancient church tradition of using the Septuagint.

 

[elvisman]

Not so fast! If it were Judas’s choice and he acted on his own, why did he wait so long? Do you honestly not believe that God was in total control of this situation! Jesus, as we know, was fully man and fully God! The human side of Christ allowed Judas to get close to him, and befriend him, and be one of his disciples. All of the disciples were chosen for a reason, a nd Judas’s lot as it turned out, was to betray Jesus into the hands of the Romans! So, your theory(or opinion) has some leaks!

Nope.
**You fail to understand that God sees everything in eternity - not in human time as you and I. Whereas God KNEW what Judas was going to do - he didn’t CAUSE Judas to do what he did. That is what you are implying. **
For that to be true - God would have to be the author of evil - and that is heresy, my friend.

As for why it took Judas so long to turn away fom God - it was only a couple of years. Why do some people get divorced after 40 years of marriage (like Al Gore).

Your argument *doesn’t* hold water.**
Try again.

 

[jericho777]

Not entirely true. There was not set canon during Jesus’ lifetime as to what constituted the OT Bible. The Sadducees rejected writings outside the Pentateuch and some other Jews accepted books,which did not make the Jewish OT canon. There is no concrete evidence Jesus’ NEVER used the 7 books AT ALL .

Nonetheless, the early Christians considered Macabees as scripture,thus the Septuagint was the Christian Bible. Protestants chose to follow the Jewish OT canon,so be it! All the ancient liturgical churches (Catholic,Coptic,Orthodox,etc) chose to stick to the ancient church tradition of using the Septuagint.

As I said Jesus never quoted or mentioned those books. Also there is no NT reference to them either while the NT is replete with quotes from all the other OT books. Why would that be?

It dosen’t matter who uses them it as you say “Protestants chose to follow the Jewish OT canon”. I trust the Holy Spirit in inspiring the Jews as to which books He wanted in the bible.

 

[elvisman]

As I said Jesus never quoted or mentioned those books. Also there is no NT reference to them either while the NT is replete with quotes from all the other OT books. Why would that be?

It dosen’t matter who uses them it as you say “Protestants chose to follow the Jewish OT canon”. I trust the Holy Spirit in inspiring the Jews as to which books He wanted in the bible.

Wanna bet?
I can produce over 100 references to the Deuterocanonicals from the Gospels and the Epistles. Here are a few:

**Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure. **
**Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others. **
**Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation. **
**Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd. **
**Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth. **
**Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books. **
**Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. **
**Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers. **
**Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17. **
**Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28. **
**Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18. **
**Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15. **
**Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17. **

Shall I go on?

 

[jericho777]

Wanna bet?
I can produce over 100 references to the Deuterocanonicals from the Gospels and the Epistles. Here are a few:
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Shall I go on?

Jesus never credits these as sources for His words as He credits directly Moses, Isaiah and the other OT authors. Also Jesus directly quotes the book of Enoch but that is not in your cannon either. Paul quotes Greek authors but only to make a point, he is not holding these as the word of God.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Wanna bet?
I can produce over 100 references to the Deuterocanonicals from the Gospels and the Epistles. Here are a few:

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Shall I go on?

No, these so called examples are horrible enough. Most of those phrases are found in earlier books from the OT prior to the DC being written like the one about hell is a direct quote from the OT prophet ISAIAH and not Judith. The only person who would be persuaded by this list did not actually look at their OT.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;

The DC do quote the OT as well…obviously

 

[elvisman]

Jesus never credits these as sources for His words as He credits directly Moses, Isaiah and the other OT authors. Also Jesus directly quotes the book of Enoch but that is not in your cannon either. Paul quotes Greek authors but only to make a point, he is not holding these as the word of God.

Are you forgetting that Jesus is GOD? GOD is quoting these verses as TRUTH.
As for the many verses Paul uses - he is inspired by the Holy Spirit to write those things.
Guess what? The Holy Spirit is ALSO God. God only speaks TRUTH.

 

[elvisman]

No, these so called examples are horrible enough. Most of those phrases are found in earlier books from the OT prior to the DC being written like the one about hell is a direct quote from the OT prophet ISAIAH and not Judith. The only person who would be persuaded by this list did not actually look at their OT.

The DC do quote the OT as well…obviously

Then I shall go on because you obviously do not understand polyvalent references.

Find an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.

In Heb 11:35 - Paul the ONLY other place you will see this in ALL of the Bible is when it is described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42. The Holy Spirit (GOD) inspired Paul to write about this truth - and GOD doesn’t lie.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Then I shall go on because you obviously do not understand polyvalent references.

**Find an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 **(the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.

In Heb 11:35 - Paul the ONLY other place you will see this in ALL of the Bible is when it is described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42. The Holy Spirit (GOD) inspired Paul to write about this truth - and GOD doesn’t lie.

So, lets stick with your Judith example before we move on to others, who is Mark quoting, Judith or Isaiah?

Here is what you said

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Well…that does SEEM pretty convincing on the surface I suppose

Here is Judith 16:17

17] Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever.

Here is Mark

Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Here is Isaiah

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched

Now explain polyvan…poli…that big word you used.
Does that mean Mark quotes Isaiah but Judith uses a few similiar words? Because if THAT is what it means, I would agree that sometimes DC authors do indeed use some of the same words…well like worm for example.

 

[1beleevr]

Nope.
You fail to understand that God sees everything in eternity - not in human time as you and I. Whereas God KNEW what Judas was going to do - he didn’t CAUSE Judas to do what he did. That is what you are implying.
For that to be true - God would have to be the author of evil - and that is heresy, my friend.

As for why it took Judas so long to turn away fom God - it was only a couple of years. Why do some people get divorced after 40 years of marriage (like Al Gore).

**Your argument d**oesn’t hold water.
Try again.

And sadly, your argument cannot stand on it’s own merit! God may have not caused Judas to do what he did, but He allowed it! How do you presume that the Sanhedrin were to get Christ crucified? Does not OT prophecy speak of Jesus being betrayed? For thirty pieces of silver? Someone who didn’t know better may think that your view on Judas and his heinous act, was happenstance! God’s plan worked to perfection(as do all of His plans). Tell me, because Judas committed this sin, after he was “saved”, is he in Hell? His return of the money, and acknowledgement of his wrong choice"I have betrayed innocent blood", would count as repenting? And how about Peter’s denial of Christ, was that something he did “on his own” also? Jesus knew he would be betrayed, and He pretty much knew who it would be! But to satisfy scripture, and prophecy, He had to allow it(Satan was allowed to enter Judas)! So,I guess Judas was not Once Saved Always Saved, huh pal?

 

[1beleevr]

Hi,#1
A suspicious rendering of scripture # 1 ! Man has free will to choose, Jesus allowed Judas communion, in hope of a change of heart, just as He did with the rich man who sadly, walked away. As far as the Pharisees, getting Jesus executed, Judas had not participated in this part of the plot, and in all reality was not even needed. I believe this is a construct of your and others imagination.

.Luke 22: for the son of man goes as has been determined, but woe to the man that betrays Him.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1opcorn:

And here I thought that only catholics had suspicious renderings of scripture Why did the Sanhedrin need Judas to betray Jesus, if they could handle it themselves? They had no authority to execute, so they had to convince the Romans that Jesus was a threat! So you also have a very vivid imagination to believe that Judas was not prt of this whole situation. God ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas, enabling him to betray! Sorry you can’t see that!

 

[elvisman]

And sadly, your argument cannot stand on it’s own merit! God may have not caused Judas to do what he did, but He allowed it! How do you presume that the Sanhedrin were to get Christ crucified? Does not OT prophecy speak of Jesus being betrayed? For thirty pieces of silver? Someone who didn’t know better may think that your view on Judas and his heinous act, was happenstance! God’s plan worked to perfection(as do all of His plans). Tell me, because Judas committed this sin, after he was “saved”, is he in Hell? His return of the money, and acknowledgement of his wrong choice"I have betrayed innocent blood", would count as repenting? And how about Peter’s denial of Christ, was that something he did “on his own” also? Jesus knew he would be betrayed, and He pretty much knew who it would be! But to satisfy scripture, and prophecy, He had to allow it(Satan was allowed to enter Judas)! So,I guess Judas was not Once Saved Always Saved, huh pal?

I’ll say it a third time so you will understand:
God allows bad us to make bad decisions - he doesn’t cause, coerce or force us to make those decisions. I think we might be able to agree there.

As I stated before - where YOU go off the track is in not understanding the concept of eternity. God is not bound by time as we are. He sees everything as a finished painting and KNOWS everything we chose, did and are going to do. God knew Judas would do what he did, as well as Peter - and for that matter, he knew that Mary would say “Yes” to bringing Christ into the world. He didn’t MAKE those things happen.

Does that help?

 

[elvisman]

So, lets stick with your Judith example before we move on to others, who is Mark quoting, Judith or Isaiah?

Here is what you said

Well…that does SEEM pretty convincing on the surface I suppose

Here is Judith 16:17

Here is Mark

Here is Isaiah

Now explain polyvan…poli…that big word you used.
Does that mean Mark quotes Isaiah but Judith uses a few similiar words? Because if THAT is what it means, I would agree that sometimes DC authors do indeed use some of the same words…well like worm for example.

Oh, no you don’t.
You’re not going to wiggle out of this one, friend.
I asked you to show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.

AND

To explain the Heb 11:35 reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
I am STILL waiting for an answer and will NOT let you off the hook on this one because you’re the one who brought it up.

Polyvalent references simply mean that more than one reference can be applied to a given quote. In short, what is said in Judith harmonizes with what is said in Isaiah - only it was in the Book of Judith first. This being the fact - you might say that Isaiah got it from Judith.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Oh, no you don’t.
You’re not going to wiggle out of this one, friend.
I asked you to show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.

AND

**To explain the Heb 11:35 **reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
I am STILL waiting for an answer and will NOT let you off the hook on this one because you’re the one who brought it up.

Polyvalent references simply mean that more than one reference can be applied to a given quote. In short, what is said in Judith harmonizes with what is said in Isaiah - only it was in the Book of Judith first. This being the fact - you might say that Isaiah got it from Judith.

Isaiah got it from Judith?
If Isaiah lived around 700 BC, how did he read Judith which was written lets say at the earliest 200 BC?

 

[elvisman]

Isaiah got it from Judith?
If Isaiah lived around 700 BC, how did he read Judith which was written lets say at the earliest 200 BC?

My mistake - I got my books mixed up.

NOW - are you going to address the challenge I issued or will you keep dodging it relentlessly?

Show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.
AND
Explain the Heb 11:35 reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

 

[Nicea325]

No, these so called examples are horrible enough. Most of those phrases are found in earlier books from the OT prior to the DC being written like the one about hell is a direct quote from the OT prophet ISAIAH and not Judith. The only person who would be persuaded by this list did not actually look at their OT.

The DC do quote the OT as well…obviously

BTW: There was no set OT canon during Jesus lifetime,so explain why he would only stick to the 39 OT book canon,if it did not exist?

 

[Rightlydivide]

BTW: There was no set OT canon during Jesus lifetime,so explain why he would only stick to the 39 OT book canon,if it did not exist?

But you see, I do not believe that is the case. It is a theory. A very popular theory to be sure based on…do you know?
sources from that era (100 BC to 100 AD)? Nope.
Its based upon presupposotions. The theory that the canon was not set for Jews is similar to the theory that there existed an Alexandrian canon and others. But you see, it has no basis in ACTUAL history. I am sure you will not believe me. Heck, I would not believe me if I were you.
So you will go looking. Looking for some kind of list or evidence about what the canon looked like in the time of Jesus. I am glad you will go look. Do tell me first hand sources that you find.

 

[Rightlydivide]

My mistake - I got my books mixed up.

NOW - are you going to address the challenge I issued or will you keep dodging it relentlessly?

Show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.
AND
**Explain the Heb 11:35 **reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

I understand, its easy to mix up major prophets and books written 500 years later.

We are not done with the example I cited first. You do not tell me what to do. I can see you are used to telling people what to do. Wrong guy.
When we are done with my topic, I will answer your questions.
So Judith does quote an earlier work. Which of course I knew. Do any of the rest of your list also quote earlier works? Do you need me to tell you which ones do?

 

[Pat_De]

my dear friend i was raised Calvinist. having been indoctrinated with it in my youth. so yes, after having studied his life, and his theology, i have weighed it in the balance, i have measured it against scripture and tradition, and it has been found wanting. very much so. Peace to you and yours.

If that is true then you would still be a Calvinist for the Scripture taught Calvin, not the other way around. How you measure against Scripture I cannot understand the conclusions, but measuring with the traditions of men is understandable. Not all traditions contradict or add to God’s Word but it is the measuring rod because it is the primary source of His revelation.

 

[Pat_De]

Hello Pat De,

You wrote -

“Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”

Sin separates us from God…

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

Hebrews 6:11
We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end,

Hebrews 6:12
so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Hebrews 6:18
so that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge might be strongly encouraged to hold fast to the hope that lies before us.

*_____________________________________ *

Hebrew 6 supports Catholic doctrine. This is what happens when someone uses a Catholic book, the Bible, to try to disprove a Catholic truth, a Bible verse, book, or chapter is taken out of context.

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

It is very telling that you are asking which verses. Hebrews 6:1-8