“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[jericho777]

Critics of the bible say its authors stole ideas and themes from pagan religion to make their own religion. That there is really no new faith but a regurgitated pagan faith.
While ideas and themes may be similar to some pagan faiths it is clear from a study of scripture that the Holy Spirit authored the bible. The authorship of scripture is original in nature and not borrowed from anywhere else. Any similarities may be attributed to the work of satan and his knowledge of God. His MO is to take truth and pervert it for his purposes. Just as he did with Jesus twisting scripture in a false way. He is the father of lies.

I’m not saying satan authored these works but he attempts to use them to destroy the faith. Those six books in question are still referred to today by Jews as apocryphal. Not really belonging to the inspired body of scripture but somewhat useful for research. Just as Josephus is informative and historical it‘s still not scripture.

Also there may have been similar events and thoughts that developed alongside each other but each had no direct connection to each other. The Holy Spirit despite any similarities still guided true faith.

There was a previous reference to the Sadducees only accepting the first five books of the bible but did not Jesus refute their claim?

 

[LittleSoldier]

The reason I said I would be a cafeteria catholic, is because I couldn’t bring myself to call the pope holy father, I would not go to confession weekly, and probably would still eat meat(albeit chicken) on Friday. Wouldn’t wear a crucifix either. And don’t believe in purgatory. That’s my very honest reply!

And not one of those things is required for being a Catholic and have nothing to do with being a Cafeteria Catholic. A Cafeteria Catholic chooses which dogma and doctrine to adhere to; not discipline, and what you’re referring to is not even discipline IMHO (with the exception of not eating meat on Fridays during Lent).

You can eat meat on Friday. That was changed long, long ago. It’s only during Lent that meat is not eaten on Friday. Nobody says you have to wear a crucifix or go to Confession weekly (I don’t). You don’t even have to see the Pope or refer to him as anything.

Where did you get these bizarre ideas about Catholicism?

 

[elvisman]

Critics of the bible say its authors stole ideas and themes from pagan religion to make their own religion. That there is really no new faith but a regurgitated pagan faith.
While ideas and themes may be similar to some pagan faiths it is clear from a study of scripture that the Holy Spirit authored the bible. The authorship of scripture is original in nature and not borrowed from anywhere else. Any similarities may be attributed to the work of satan and his knowledge of God. His MO is to take truth and pervert it for his purposes. Just as he did with Jesus twisting scripture in a false way. He is the father of lies.

I’m not saying satan authored these works but he attempts to use them to destroy the faith. Those six books in question are still referred to today by Jews as apocryphal. Not really belonging to the inspired body of scripture but somewhat useful for research. Just as Josephus is informative and historical it‘s still not scripture.

Also there may have been similar events and thoughts that developed alongside each other but each had no direct connection to each other. The Holy Spirit despite any similarities still guided true faith.

There was a previous reference to the Sadducees only accepting the first five books of the bible but did not Jesus refute their claim?

The plain fact is that Jesus quoted from them - as did the writers of the Epistles (as is evidenced by the examples I gave and the inability to refute them).

The tragedy of the Protestant “canon” of Scripture is that it rejects theose books used by Jesus and the Apostles and accepts instead, a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Jewish canon from a rabbinic group who had no authority to do so in the first place.

NOW - since the my challenge has gone unanswered - let’s get back to the topic of the THREAD (OSAS) before the thread is closed for veering off-topic . . .

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’ve referred to the specific passages Heb 6:1-8 in a previous post. How you say one is out of context and at the same time do not know what passages we are talking about is a foolish statement to make. If you do not see predestination ALL OVER the NT, then you gravely error on the very obvious teaching of the NT. There is not one example of a person having, then lost salvation.

Please excuse me; I came into this discussion rather late. Are you referring to examples as described in the Bible only or examples on which the Bible is silent? If you’re referring to all examples you really don’t know.

There is no predestination as God gave us free will. There is a big difference in knowing what will happen and in causing what will happen. I don’t see predestination ALL OVER the NT and I don’t feel that I gravely err on the “very obvious” teaching of the NT. If it’s very obvious, why doesn’t everyone see it?

Possibly because it isn’t there?

 

[LittleSoldier]

**The plain fact is that Jesus **quoted from them - as did the writers of the Epistles (as is evidenced by the examples I gave and the inability to refute them).

The tragedy of the Protestant "canon" of Scripture is that it rejects theose books used by Jesus and the Apostles and accepts instead, a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Jewish canon from a rabbinic group who had no authority to do so in the first place.

**NOW **- since the my challenge has gone unanswered - let’s get back to the topic of the THREAD (OSAS) before the thread is closed for veering off-topic . . .

I agree.

Back to the OP:

In the case of OSAS I’ve asked the following question before and always received the answer “yes”:

Suppose a man sinned rather horribly and then one day asked for Jesus to come into his life. He felt the presence of Jesus and fell to his knees in supplication and joy. He accepted Christ as his Savior and began to live a life of good.

Ten years go by. The man has reverted back to his life of horrible sin. He has been sinning for over seven years now; horrible awful sins. While in the midst of one of his sins he is killed. Does he goes to heaven?

Your thoughts?

 

[elvisman]

Please excuse me; I came into this discussion rather late. Are you referring to examples as described in the Bible only or examples on which the Bible is silent? If you’re referring to all examples you really don’t know.

There is no predestination as God gave us free will. There is a big difference in knowing what will happen and in causing what will happen. I don’t see predestination ALL OVER the NT and I don’t feel that I gravely err on the “very obvious” teaching of the NT. If it’s very obvious, why doesn’t everyone see it?

Possibly because it isn’t there?

**Unfortunately Pat and others are having a rather difficult time understanding the anthropomorphic language of Scripture - especially when it comes to the concept of eternity. **

**“God predestines” usually means “God knows”. Since heaven is out of time, he doesn’t know “beforehand” - he KNOWS - period. That is what most of predestination means, but Calvin not only misunderstood this - he HAD to reject the Catholic position. **
Spiritual pride somes at a high cost . . .

 

[elvisman]

I agree.

Back to the OP:

In the case of OSAS I’ve asked the following question before and always received the answer “yes”:

Suppose a man sinned rather horribly and then one day asked for Jesus to come into his life. He felt the presence of Jesus and fell to his knees in supplication and joy. He accepted Christ as his Savior and began to live a life of good.

Ten years go by. The man has reverted back to his life of horrible sin. He has been sinning for over seven years now; horrible awful sins. While in the midst of one of his sins he is killed. Does he goes to heaven?

Your thoughts?

Not if he dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin (1 John 5:16).

 

[1beleevr]

**So - you’re not **going to address this?
That PROVES me right.

A couple of months ago I issued this challenge to any and all Protestants - and NONE of them wold take the challenge. You have ALL proven the Catholic position by your failure to address the issue.

**Your stipulation about my answering whether or not anything on my list quoted earlier **works is moot because you reject polyvalent references.

We have proven nothing! All together now,“WE do not aaccept Prince Valiant, i mean polyvalent references!”

 

[1beleevr]

And not one of those things is required for being a Catholic and have nothing to do with being a Cafeteria Catholic. A Cafeteria Catholic chooses which dogma and doctrine to adhere to; not discipline, and what you’re referring to is not even discipline IMHO (with the exception of not eating meat on Fridays during Lent).

You can eat meat on Friday. That was changed long, long ago. It’s only during Lent that meat is not eaten on Friday. Nobody says you have to wear a crucifix or go to Confession weekly (I don’t). You don’t even have to see the Pope or refer to him as anything.

Where did you get these bizarre ideas about Catholicism?

I guess I am meeting thewrong catholics out there! They say,“Why don’t you wear a crucifix?” I respond,"Why do you wear one?"When I speak about the pope(whom I respect, but do not recognize as the religious leader of the world), they say,“Please refer to him as the holy father!” i say,"But he’s not my holy father, God is!"Heard a catholic apologist on the radio say that is every catholic’s obligation to go to confession; no exceptions! Oh, and plus I don’t believe in purgatory!

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea
Do you or do you not, have primary sources proving the canon was open at this time.
I have Josephus and 2nd Esdras that support my view that are roughly contemporary. What do you have?

Sorry,but you are simply turning the tables. I asked you once before,if the canon was SET before Jesus or during His lifetime,then produce the sources. Either produce it or simply admit it was not set. Josephus? Sorry,but the Josephus’ canon is not identical to the modern Hebrew Bible. Try again. 2 Esdras reference to a 24 book is empirical proof? Where does it state a set canon was set in 2 Esdras 14:45-46?

What do I have? Scores of sources from many Biblical scholars (Catholic,Protestant,Orthodox,Coptic,Syriac,etc) who state the available many primary sources (2 Maccabees, 2 Esdras,Josephus,Deuteronomy,Nehemiah) do not suggest that the canon was at any specific time closed. More important, it is not clear that these particular books were identical in content to those that later became part of the Masoretic text. Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set.

What else do you want to know?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Unfortunately Pat and others are having a rather difficult time understanding the anthropomorphic language of Scripture - especially when it comes to the concept of eternity.

"God predestines" usually means “God knows”. Since heaven is out of time, he doesn’t know “beforehand” - he KNOWS - period. That is what most of predestination means, but Calvin not only misunderstood this - he HAD to reject the Catholic position.
Spiritual pride somes at a high cost . . .

That’s clear to me. God is omniscient. He knows everything. He has also given us a great gift - that of free will. If predistination meant what they mean free will would be meaningless. What does free will matter if one’s fate is predetermined? Do these people not believe in free will at all?

Omniscience does not mean predetermination. And you’re right about “time” - not one of us here, with our human brains, can really conceive of eternity. Time as we humans measure it is not the same as time is to God.

 

[1beleevr]

**The plain fact is that Jesus **quoted from them - as did the writers of the Epistles (as is evidenced by the examples I gave and the inability to refute them).

The tragedy of the Protestant "canon" of Scripture is that it rejects theose books used by Jesus and the Apostles and accepts instead, a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Jewish canon from a rabbinic group who had no authority to do so in the first place.

**NOW **- since the my challenge has gone unanswered - let’s get back to the topic of the THREAD (OSAS) before the thread is closed for veering off-topic . . .

Any specific scripture, where Jesus quoted from these six"books?"

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisman
Unfortunately Pat and others are having a rather difficult time understanding the anthropomorphic language of Scripture - especially when it comes to the concept of eternity.

“God predestines” usually means “God knows”. Since heaven is out of time, he doesn’t know “beforehand” - he KNOWS - period. That is what most of predestination means, but Calvin not only misunderstood this - he HAD to reject the Catholic position.
Spiritual pride somes at a high cost . . .

That is very true elvisman. People tend forget Jesus’ did not speak English. First of all, the Bible is about ancient cultures,ancient langauges,ancient beliefs;moreover, it is all about a culture in the EASTERN part of the world,not the west.

 

[1beleevr]

Matt. 27: 3, When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

Quote=onenow1 Don’t you see it #1 Jesus forsaw that Judas would despair in his sin; unlike Peter who wept and repented and had hope. Luke 22: 42, and Peter went outside and wept bitterly. Mark 14: 72, and he burst into tears. Matt 26 Ditto.

Hope this helps #1.
Peace and God bless

Judas didn’t have to convince anyone of anything The Jewish High Council had to find a way to get Jesus to Calvary(per God’s beautiful and perfect plan), since they had no authority to crucify anyone! Judas was a pawn in the game, if not him it would have been someone else! Why didn’t the Sanhedrin go to the High Priest, and then to Pilate? Why did they need Judas to betray Christ? Do you really believe that Judas just woke up one morning, and said,"I think I’ll betray my Lord today? And because Jesus is God, He knew who would betray Him, and when! Prophecy was fulfilled! Hallelujah!

 

[1beleevr]

I’ll say it a third time so you will understand:
God allows bad us to make bad decisions - he doesn’t cause, coerce or force us to make those decisions. I think we might be able to agree there.

As I stated before - where YOU go off the track is in not understanding the concept of eternity. God is not bound by time as we are. He sees everything as a finished painting and KNOWS everything we chose, did and are going to do. God knew Judas would do what he did, as well as Peter - and for that matter, he knew that Mary would say “Yes” to bringing Christ into the world. He didn’t MAKE those things happen.

Does that help?

Actually, I think it’s rather cute, and clever how you use colors! Boy, you are a hard sell on this Judas argument; but then I must consider the source And I’m still trying to figure out what Al Gore’s divorce has to do with anything on this thread(or any thread for that matter).Eternity is a concept that no mortal man can fathom! God is not now, nor has He ever been constrained by time! We however, have set timelines and schedules, etc. Also, God does and can use situations and events(and people) to accomplish a purpose and to bring glory to His name! Jesus fulfilled well over 600 prophecies(amazing!) including the one which just happened to involve one Judas Iscariot! You do believe that God ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas, right? Just like he had to ask permission to do what he did to Job.We all remember how God continually hardened Pharoah’s heart in Exodus; and how he used Rahab, David, and countless other to bring His plans to fruition! I do believe that my argument has some merit, in spite of what Mr elvisman says!

 

[Rightlydivide]

Sorry,but you are simply turning the tables. I asked you once before,if the canon was SET before Jesus or during His lifetime,then produce the sources. Either produce it or simply admit it was not set. Josephus? Sorry,but the Josephus’ canon is not identical to the modern Hebrew Bible. Try again. 2 Esdras reference to a 24 book is empirical proof? Where does it state a set canon was set in 2 Esdras 14:45-46?

What do I have? Scores of sources from many Biblical scholars (Catholic,Protestant,Orthodox,Coptic,Syriac,etc) who state the available many primary sources (2 Maccabees, 2 Esdras,Josephus,Deuteronomy,Nehemiah) do not suggest that the canon was at any specific time closed. More important, it is not clear that these particular books were identical in content to those that later became part of the Masoretic text. Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set.

What else do you want to know?

It isn’t? He states

Josephus clearly states their is no disagreement about them? Who do you have that states there was a disagreement

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life.

Do tell me what you have specifically or I will be left to conclude you are parroting what you have been told without investigating it? Give me a source that says it was open. A primary source please. I provided one that said there was not disagreement. Now, give one that refutes it please.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I guess I am meeting thewrong catholics out there! They say,“Why don’t you wear a crucifix?” I respond,"Why do you wear one?"When I speak about the pope(whom I respect, but do not recognize as the religious leader of the world), they say,“Please refer to him as the holy father!” i say,"But he’s not my holy father, God is!"Heard a catholic apologist on the radio say that is every catholic’s obligation to go to confession; no exceptions! Oh, and plus I don’t believe in purgatory!

I guess you are meeting Catholics who are not very aware of their faith. If they ask “Why don’t you wear a crucifix?” you might ask them to produce the dogma or doctrine that requires a Catholic to wear one (there is none). If you speak about the Pope and they say “Please refer to him as the holy father!” you might say “I thought he was the Pope!” As for Confession, we are supposed to go, but there is nothing that says we must go each week. I believe the standard is once per year, but I could be mistaken about that.

Purgatory doesn’t care if you believe in it or not - it still exists. I’m not sure what your failure to believe in Purgatory would have on being Catholic.

There are things you must accept to be a Catholic, but it sounds like some of the Catholics you meet believe there are things you must accept that you really don’t have to accept or that if you don’t accept them you are a “Cafeteria Catholic.”

IMHO the best way to learn about Catholicism is to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and to check to footnotes if there are any questions.

God bless!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Actually, I think it’s rather cute, and clever how you use colors! Boy, you are a hard sell on this Judas argument; but then I must consider the source And I’m still trying to figure out what Al Gore’s divorce has to do with anything on this thread(or any thread for that matter).Eternity is a concept that no mortal man can fathom! God is not now, nor has He ever been constrained by time! We however, have set timelines and schedules, etc. Also, God does and can use situations and events(and people) to accomplish a purpose and to bring glory to His name! Jesus fulfilled well over 600 prophecies(amazing!) including the one which just happened to involve one Judas Iscariot! You do believe that God ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas, right? Just like he had to ask permission to do what he did to Job.We all remember how God continually hardened Pharoah’s heart in Exodus; and how he used Rahab, David, and countless other to bring His plans to fruition! I do believe that my argument has some merit, in spite of what Mr elvisman says!

What does “ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas” mean?

I also request book, chapter, verse, and Bible used. Thank you.

 

[1beleevr]

What does “ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas” mean?

Pretty much the same thing as God allowing Satan to do what he did to Job! Judas was a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary, whether he knew it ahead of time or not! I don believe that Judas cooked up this idea,“all on his own”. With Satan inside of him, Judas proceeded to hatch his evil plan; and thank God he did!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Pretty much the same thing as God allowing Satan to do what he did to Job! Judas was a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary, whether he knew it ahead of time or not! I don believe that Judas cooked up this idea,“all on his own”. With Satan inside of him, Judas proceeded to hatch his evil plan; and thank God he did!

I just edited my post to request book, chapter, and verse, and also Bible used. Sorry about the late edition.