“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Pitcharan]

That ties OSAS to another of Calvin’s points…the doctrine of irresistible grace. The idea is that when God mercifully preordains a soul to glory, He will infallibly complete the work of salvation in that soul. I don’t look at it as coercion. God is the ultimate good. No soul, however wicked he be, could resist God’s goodness if He sends sufficient grace to said soul. God is not that impotent. If God sends His grace for a sinner to repent, he will willingly surrender to God because that sinner will recognize God’s goodness.

It’s hard to see it any other way. If God can’t save those whom he has preordained, then He is not much of a God, is He? It begs the question whether God actually wants every human being to be saved which leads to another of Calvin’s points…limited atonement. Short answer …no. And that is the single most disturbing of Calvin’s five points. But people (Catholics and protestants) are very ignorant on how OSAS is interlocked with the other 4 points.

It is God who sends His grace to His elect. It is He who gives them faith. He who brings them to repentance. Who inspires and directs their good works. And who will ultimately bring them to glory. He does this because He mercifully loves them. It is not an abusive and coercive relationship. It really is rather humbling to imagine that a person can be so undeserving of such unconditional love yet still receive it. That is what the true fruit of OSAS is supposed to be. Humility not license.

You are beautifuly right CARV. God affords every means for His children to repent; After being swallowed by a whale, Jonah readily repented and obeyed God. It is no coercion It is simply this: Can God ever fail in His effort?
As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (Is 55:10-11)

 

[LittleSoldier]

Why do you believe that Satan had to ask God for permission to torment Job? Have you ever rebuked Satan in the name of Jesus? I never said God ALLOWED was in the Bible, Mister "I’m reading shallenged; you just assumed I did Did Judas allow Satan in? Did he know what he was in for? Enough with the word semantics, already! I pitched a theory, based on what I believe to be good evidence, and you and elvisman go ballistic with it!

That is why I asked for a passage that implied that God “ALLOWED Satan to enter Judas.” Those are your words, are they not? I never mentioned Job so how do you come up with the idea that I believe that Satan had to ask God for permission to torment Job? And how do you come up with the idea that I’m a "Mister I’m reading “schallenged”? I’m not even a “Mister” at all - I’m a Ms.

OK, you pitched a theory. That means you interpreted Holy Scripture. You never mentioned it was a theory. You mentioned it as if it were fact. What I am saying is that you do not have the information necessary to develop and/or back up your “theory.”

Are you now saying your evidence wasn’t good? It sounds that way to me. I haven’t gone ballistic with anything. I am telling you that your interpretation of Holy Scripture is rife with problems, not the least of which is the fact that the Bible was not written in modern, western English.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You are beautifuly right CARV. God affords every means for His children to repent; After being swallowed by a whale, Jonah readily repented and obeyed God. It is no coercion It is simply this: Can God ever fail in His effort?
As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (Is 55:10-11)

But Pitcharan, God has given us the gift of free will. And everything God does is in love; ergo, His gift of free will is given in love.

Would a loving God force me to love Him? Can a loving God force me to love Him? Will He force me to be in heaven with Him if I don’t want to be there? Lucifer used to love God and then decided not to serve Him anymore. Being forced to be eternally with one that one hates is the ultimate punishment. In His love, God gave Lucifer what he wanted - a place away from heaven.

If I choose to sin, if I choose to turn away from God after I have accepted Him as my Savior, isn’t that my decision to make? Wouldn’t a loving God allow me to use that gift of free will to make that decision? Or would He tell me that I have no choice; I must love Him? You know, God does not force people to love Him. That would be fake love and a lie. To love God we must love Him with our hearts, with our minds, and with our souls, based on free will, given to us from Him.

There are plenty of people around who worship Satan with all their hearts, with all their minds, and with all their souls and they want to serve him in hell. I know this is very sad but it does exist. Does God stop this? No, because of the gift of free will. Does He know if these people will go to hell? Yes, because He is omniscient. Does it mean they are predestined? No, because they made the choice, not God. Does it mean they are saved? No, because they have the gift of free will which allows them to turn their backs on God, no matter how badly this makes God (and us) feel. Even if they once accepted God as their Savior they are always free to change their minds.

If you don’t accept this do you also deny that there are people in hell right now? If God “never fails in His effort” why are there all these people in hell?

 

[LittleSoldier]

That just means you do not know that interpretation is not from man, but from the Holy Spirit of truth which the Bible teaches. He uses godly men and women to expose those truths to build and equip others to do the same. You have no idea how much time both Luther & Calvin spent in reading & studying the Scriptures…do you? This is why they have had such a wonderful impact on Christianity.

The Holy Spirit is the one who endows us with wisdom, enabling some of us to interpret Scripture. So if you believe you are guided by the Holy Spirit and interpret Scripture, and I believe I am guided by the Holy Spirit and interpret the same Scripture passage differently, whose interpretation is correct?

We both firmly believe we are being guided by the Holy Spirit. How do we decide whose interpretation is correct?

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea Quote:
How is that a validation of a SET canon? If it were set as you claim,then funny how the majority of scholars state there is no concensus as to when it was set? Who should I believe? You or scholars?

You should investigate why they say that. I have not even used the biblical arguments yet. Most scholars do not believe in the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, the innerancy of scripture and I could go on. So you should believe what is true based upon your investigation.

I should investigate? No offense,but that is a rather silly remark. Do you believe I am making all this up? Then tell me what ancient scholar has the concrete evidence the canon was already ‘fixed’ if you discredit any scholar of today?

I’ll ask you again,show me ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence when the canon was fixed? NOTHING! What year? Where? By whom? Name of the Council? You are simply interpoaltating something that the text does not say.

God did not set his OT canon with a council. And that is going to be a valuable thing to remember when investigating this.

EXACTLY! If no Jewish council set it,then you are contradicting yourself,evidently it was not ‘fixed’ prior to Jesus or during his life time.If no council set it,then who did? When? Where? Indeed there was a set of books commonly used,but that is not proof it was fixed.

By the way, that is an incorrect use of the word interpolation. Do you mean extrapolation? Because ironically we can talk about interpolations!

Oops,yes my bad.

Quote:
Of the “prophets,” MacDonald asserts that there "seems to be little doubt that by ca. 200 BCE most of the Jewish people had recognized in some sense a collection of writings called the ‘Prophets,’ " that probably consisted of most of our OT prophetic writings, along with Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and the Kings books, although we cannot be certain of the exact content of the collection. (MacDonald diverges from the traditional view and dates some of the OT books, such as Daniel, quite late.)

Great. So MacDonald believes Daniel is a fake and Nicea buys his view based upon…primary sources? No.

And yet rightlydivided has a different view,but based upon what? Primary sources? Absolutely A BIG NO! If so,present it as I have asked you numerous times.

Quote:
The third class, which Sirach calls “other,” is to be equated with what was later called the “Writings” or “Hagiographa,” and was not as restricted in content as the first two categories until after the time of the Council of Jamnia in the late first century. [ibid., 34-5]

Council of Jamnia did not set the canon. I can provide Catholic sources that support that.

And when did I say it did? I am Catholic and I know the Catholic position and I agree.

 

[jericho777]

Absoloutely, my friend.
Calvinism rejects free will and therein lies the problem.

According to Calvinism, every sin ever committed was caused by God. This is the only logical conclusion one can arrive at when embracing this false doctrine of men.

Calvinism embrasses free will but explains that we are bound by the will we have. Those bound by the sin nature can not choose the things of God those bound by the heavenly nature can choose the things of God.

God cannot sin but allows those bound by their sin nature to continue in their nature to sin.

I hope this helps clear up some misconceptions.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Nicea325;6807092]I should investigate? No offense,but that is a rather silly remark. Do you believe I am making all this up? Then tell me what ancient scholar has the concrete evidence the canon was already ‘fixed’ if you discredit any scholar of today?

EXACTLY! If no Jewish council set it,then you are contradicting yourself,evidently it was not ‘fixed’ prior to Jesus or during his life time.If no council set it,then who did? When? Where? Indeed there was a set of books commonly used,but that is not proof it was fixed.

Oops,yes my bad.

And yet rightlydivided has a different view,but based upon what? Primary sources? Absolutely A BIG NO! If so,present it as I have asked you numerous times.

And when did I say it did? I am Catholic and I know the Catholic position and I agree

Three things.
I do not believe a council can fix or set the canon. Only God can. That curiously is also your view, you do not hold scripture to be scripute based upon the subsequent authority of the church but because God is the author. That is the Catholic view. In that sense, we agree. A council can recognize what God has done but cannot set a canon.

Next, this is my primary source. Please directly address it

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times;

Josephus is a primary source. You can disagree with what this means, and I would like to see what that looks like, but in good conscience how can you say I do not provide a primary source when I do.
Josephus states the Jews do not have a multitude of books among them. Josephus states that they do not contradict or disagree with one another.

Finally, you did not answer my question about Paul and the OT.

Thanks

 

[elvisman]

Calvinism embrasses free will but explains that we are bound by the will we have. Those bound by the sin nature can not choose the things of God those bound by the heavenly nature can choose the things of God.

God cannot sin but allows those bound by their sin nature to continue in their nature to sin.

I hope this helps clear up some misconceptions.

Thanks for the explanation - but that’s not true Calvinism. Irresistable grace is a doctrine that says, I MUST choose God’s will and I cannot resist it.
The grace you are describing sounds very Catholic.

We alse believe (actually, we were the first to believe) that we cannot choose the things of God unless we are in his Grace. The difference is - we believe we must cooperate with that grace - that we do not have it forced upon us as Calvisnism dictates.**

 

[jericho777]

Thanks for the explanation - but that’s not true Calvinism. Irresistable grace is a doctrine that says, I MUST choose God’s will and I cannot resist it.
The grace you are describing sounds very Catholic.

We alse believe (actually, we were the first** to believe) that we cannot choose the things of God unless we are in his Grace. The difference is - we believe we must cooperate with that grace - that we do not have it forced upon us as Calvisnism dictates.

When we were in the world how did we live? Where we not bound by our sin nature to commit sin?

Now that we are Christ’s His nature compells us to follow His will.

Look at the difference between Peter and Judas. Peter was wrought by guilt and repented by grace. Judas had a horrible end to destruction.

God brings those He loves to the need of repentance then follows through with the grace to forgive. Do you see sinners come to the need for repentance unless they are called by God to do so?

 

[onenow1]

Do you really believe that Judas just woke up one morning, and said,"I think I’ll betray my Lord today?

1No! His decision was made right there and then.

 

[jerry_kelso]

Crystal clarity can be inferred from John 5 (Healing at thr pool). The paralytic, a sinner had suuffered for 38 years. After being healed had no gratitude to either to thank or know Jesus. Was quick to sin again by revealing his healer’s (Jesus’) identity to those who were seeking to persecute Him. This in spite of Jesus warning him saying “See, you are well again. Sin no more. lest greater evil befall you”.

My point is that, a saved person can delay his ultimate destination and add misery upon misery on him/her self. But God will not forsake him but wait till he repents and returns.

A macro case is the nation of Israel, which suffered for 200 years in Egypt, 400 years in the desert of Sin, 400 years in Babylon and similarly in Assyria, Medo-Persia, then under Greece and then Romans and finally under Germany. Will God ever give up on Israel? NEVER.

Throughout the Bible we will come across warnings like “You will surely die!”. These are warnings and not damnations.

Even when our Lord said that people from the east and west will enter His kingdom, while its original citizens will be thrown out into hell (Matt 8:10-12), it is only a severe warning-cum-call for repentence. Not a condemnation.

Recall Israel’s last warning and prophecy of consequeces if not heeded:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matt23:37-39; also Lk 13:34-35) and They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you." (Lk 19:44)

A SAVED PERSON CAN MAKE EARTH A HELL FOR HIM/HER SELF IF HE/SHE DOES NOT RESPOND POSITIVELY.

Pitcharan: I tried to get on your post but it would never go for some reason, so, I decide to read the post before me.

1. All your examples of second chances are all conjecture. The only way that you are right is in your presupposition that if God gives second chances on earth before he dies then he must give second chance in hell after he dies. There is no implication about a second chance in hell after you die.
2. There are many who are given 2nd, 3rd, and more chances for the Holy Spirit is always pursuing his children but, God’s spirit will not always strive with man.
3. The children of Israel was God’s chosen nation and God said he would fulfill his covenant promises to Israel which are eternal. However, this did not help Israel; like those in the wilderness who sinned and fell in one day,numbering 23,000 for committing fornication.
   Pitcharan, let me ask you a question. If you go to hell and get a second chance to get out and go to heaven then, if you go to heaven and you didn’t do very many works will you get a 2nd chance to perform better works and will you be judged again for your works? Give scriptural proof! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[LittleSoldier]

Pitcharan: I tried to get on your post but it would never go for some reason, so, I decide to read the post before me.

1. All your examples of second chances are all conjecture. The only way that you are right is in your presupposition that if God gives second chances on earth before he dies then he must give second chance in hell after he dies. There is no implication about a second chance in hell after you die.
2. There are many who are given 2nd, 3rd, and more chances for the Holy Spirit is always pursuing his children but, God’s spirit will not always strive with man.
3. The children of Israel was God’s chosen nation and God said he would fulfill his covenant promises to Israel which are eternal. However, this did not help Israel; like those in the wilderness who sinned and fell in one day,numbering 23,000 for committing fornication.
   Pitcharan, let me ask you a question. If you go to hell and get a second chance to get out and go to heaven then, if you go to heaven and you didn’t do very many works will you get a 2nd chance to perform better works and will you be judged again for your works? Give scriptural proof! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

Also remember that there is one sin that God will not forgive and that is a sin against the Holy Spirit - which is refusal to atone for a mortal sin if I believe correctly. If one dies with this sin on his soul, he has chosen hell and there he must go. No second chance. No third chance. It’s over.

But that makes sense to me because if one commits a mortal sin and has the chance to atone and doesn’t, his choice is very clear. He’s not sorry. Should he go to heaven even if he believes Jesus is his Savior? No, because he has taken his free will and used it to refuse to atone. God will not force him to pretend to be sorry or to act sorry. God accepts his decision.

I believe there’s a heresy where a priest taught that hell is sort of an illusion and God doesn’t really mean people will be there forever but He uses that threat as a way to keep us on the straight and narrow. I can’t remember the name of the heresy or anything else about it except that I think that during the Second Coming everyone will be let out of hell and allowed to enter heaven.

 

[CARV]

But Pitcharan, God has given us the gift of free will.

Has he? I am not aware of ever being forced to believe God so I guess I freely choose to believe and try to be good. But the idea of free will really doesn’t sync will with Romans 9. Some people were made to be glorified and some people were made so their destruction could glorify God. Romans 9 can can be a tough pill to swallow.

Would a loving God force me to love Him? Can a loving God force me to love Him? Will He force me to be in heaven with Him if I don’t want to be there? Lucifer used to love God and then decided not to serve Him anymore. Being forced to be eternally with one that one hates is the ultimate punishment. In His love, God gave Lucifer what he wanted - a place away from heaven.

I don’t view it as being “forced” to love him. I was attracted to my wife. I sought her out and I won her heart. Now we are married for going on 7 years. I don’t look at it as forcing her but I loved her and she couldn’t resist my charm.

Gods loves His chosen. He sends His grace to them. They will taste of His goodness I will love Him too. Nobody is so evil as to not be overwhelmed at the All-goodness of God and freely give themselves to Him.

If I choose to sin, if I choose to turn away from God after I have accepted Him as my Savior, isn’t that my decision to make? Wouldn’t a loving God allow me to use that gift of free will to make that decision? Or would He tell me that I have no choice; I must love Him? You know, God does not force people to love Him. That would be fake love and a lie. To love God we must love Him with our hearts, with our minds, and with our souls, based on free will, given to us from Him.

If you have children, imagine for a moment that your child freely wants to choose to abuse drugs. Wouldn’t you do everthing in your power to stop them? God doesn’t even have to use force. He can simply touch the soul with His grace. Do you believe that a person can be so evil that they can resist His love? How is such a God All-Good or All-Powerful? He can’t even save His own.

There are plenty of people around who worship Satan with all their hearts, with all their minds, and with all their souls and they want to serve him in hell. I know this is very sad but it does exist. Does God stop this? No, because of the gift of free will. Does He know if these people will go to hell? Yes, because He is omniscient. Does it mean they are predestined? No, because they made the choice, not God. Does it mean they are saved? No, because they have the gift of free will which allows them to turn their backs on God, no matter how badly this makes God (and us) feel. Even if they once accepted God as their Savior they are always free to change their minds.

If you don’t accept this do you also deny that there are people in hell right now? If God “never fails in His effort” why are there all these people in hell?

Simply put, I don’t believe in a God that can fail…period. If He wanted the damned to be saved, He would have saved them. A God that would allow His own children to be lost doesn’t square with the Bible orn common sense. That is not All-loving. Who in thier right mind would say "I loved my son so much that I let him be tortered to death by his own choice rather than to intervene by persuading him to change his ways’’?

 

[Sunlight90]

“Once Saved Always Saved” or “eternal security” is one doctrine that some Protestants believe in that I disagree with heavily. I personally feel that the Bible and Sacred Tradition is quite clear on the fact that we are not saved simply by responding to an altar call and that we are then free to live life as we want and not worry about losing our salvation. I am not saying that all those who believe in “once saved always saved” believe this either but I am certain that some do. I know that some people use this doctrine to justify living a sinful lifestyle. I do not see that as right.

 

[Pitcharan]

But Pitcharan, God has given us the gift of free will. And everything God does is in love; ergo, His gift of free will is given in love.

Would a loving God force me to love Him? Can a loving God force me to love Him? Will He force me to be in heaven with Him if I don’t want to be there? Lucifer used to love God and then decided not to serve Him anymore. Being forced to be eternally with one that one hates is the ultimate punishment. In His love, God gave Lucifer what he wanted - a place away from heaven.

If I choose to sin, if I choose to turn away from God after I have accepted Him as my Savior, isn’t that my decision to make? Wouldn’t a loving God allow me to use that gift of free will to make that decision? Or would He tell me that I have no choice; I must love Him? You know, God does not force people to love Him. That would be fake love and a lie. To love God we must love Him with our hearts, with our minds, and with our souls, based on free will, given to us from Him.

There are plenty of people around who worship Satan with all their hearts, with all their minds, and with all their souls and they want to serve him in hell. I know this is very sad but it does exist. Does God stop this? No, because of the gift of free will. Does He know if these people will go to hell? Yes, because He is omniscient. Does it mean they are predestined? No, because they made the choice, not God. Does it mean they are saved? No, because they have the gift of free will which allows them to turn their backs on God, no matter how badly this makes God (and us) feel. Even if they once accepted God as their Savior they are always free to change their minds.

If you don’t accept this do you also deny that there are people in hell right now? If God “never fails in His effort” why are there all these people in hell?

My dear Little Soldier, u have not read my posts properly and u r raising queries on things I never said or implied. Let me refresh u point by point and dispel all misconceptions:

1. 
   *]The debate is about people who are saved and hence belong to God
   *]It is not at all about those who do not belong to God and hell boundl.
   *]A saved child of God is specifically targeted by Satan with impressive illusions
   *]He / she can be ensnared again; it doesn’t mean he/she is hell bound by free choice but rather a victim of deception
   *]God will do everything that is fair under the rules of this battle and redeem His child
   *]If Satan can decieve Eve into believing that she would become like God if she ate the forbidden fruit, then God is fair in making a whale swallow Jonah to show where he is really heading. It is not corecion
   *]The children who keep falling can delay their salvation and suffer longer even unto purgatory
   *]They can never be lost forever; that is predestination
   
   Blessed is he/she whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
   Blessed is the man/woman whose sin the LORD does not count against him/her and in whose spirit is no deceit. (Ps 32:1-2)
   
   Let us recollect what we were debating about:
   1. Jimmy said that OSAS is a Calvin doctrine popular among Protestants.
   2. It is unacceptable to catholics as it renders all teachings meaningless and the very quest for salvation futile.
   I offer an explanation, which I believe should be acceptable to Calvinists, Protestants, Western catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. It is:already posted on this thread on another branch. Please check out this link and let me know your views too
   forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…05719#poststop

 

[Pitcharan]

…
I believe there’s a heresy where a priest taught that hell is sort of an illusion and God doesn’t really mean people will be there forever but He uses that threat as a way to keep us on the straight and narrow. I can’t remember the name of the heresy or anything else about it except that I think that during the Second Coming everyone will be let out of hell and allowed to enter heaven.

Please read Apocalpse. It is the first hell (ie. purgatory) not the second hell (lake of fire).

A priest may teach something incorrect :

1. because he is ignorant OR
2. because he is in error after being blinded by his own spiritual pride as where many pharisees, OR
3. because he treats this a trivial matter and speaks whatever he feels like OR
4. he is a heretic and an agent of Satan misleading simple people.

We cannot judge by appearances. We need the help of the HS.

 

[Pitcharan]

Pitcharan: I tried to get on your post but it would never go for some reason, so, I decide to read the post before me.

1. All your examples of second chances are all conjecture. The only way that you are right is in your presupposition that if God gives second chances on earth before he dies then he must give second chance in hell after he dies. There is no implication about a second chance in hell after you die.
2. There are many who are given 2nd, 3rd, and more chances for the Holy Spirit is always pursuing his children but, God’s spirit will not always strive with man.
3. The children of Israel was God’s chosen nation and God said he would fulfill his covenant promises to Israel which are eternal. However, this did not help Israel; like those in the wilderness who sinned and fell in one day,numbering 23,000 for committing fornication.
   Pitcharan, let me ask you a question. If you go to hell and get a second chance to get out and go to heaven then, if you go to heaven and you didn’t do very many works will you get a 2nd chance to perform better works and will you be judged again for your works? Give scriptural proof! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

My dear Jerry, I still doubt if you read my posts completely. I will try again to present my beliefs clearly:

1. A saved person falling into sin again is a normal thing. He/she will keep falling only to rise again a stronger person.
2. The apparent no. of chances, in my opinion are not chances. It is part of the process called salvation which is working on a saved (predestined) person. It is a process by which he/she is divinised to enable co-existence with God in heaven.
3. The process may be completed on earth or may extend after death unto purgatory NOT hell.

Now, coming to the Israelites who perished in the desert of Sin, never say they were damned. The bible never said or implied so.

If you are willing to accept it, then I can point out, where the bible says that they were NOT damned.

But I remember an earlier occasion whren you sought a bibilical proof, but remained unbelieving even after I provided it.

Yours in the Lord Jesus Christ
Pitcharan

 

[jericho777]

I don’t view it as being “forced” to love him. I was attracted to my wife. I sought her out and I won her heart. Now we are married for going on 7 years. I don’t look at it as forcing her but I loved her and she couldn’t resist my charm.

Gods loves His chosen. He sends His grace to them. They will taste of His goodness I will love Him too. Nobody is so evil as to not be overwhelmed at the All-goodness of God and freely give themselves to Him.

Very well put this is a perfect picture of irresistable grace. He gives us the grace to love Him.

 

[elvisman]

When we were in the world how did we live? Where we not bound by our sin nature to commit sin?

Now that we are Christ’s His nature compells us to follow His will.

Look at the difference between Peter and Judas. Peter was wrought by guilt and repented by grace. Judas had a horrible end to destruction.

God brings those He loves to the need of repentance then follows through with the grace to forgive. Do you see sinners come to the need for repentance unless they are called by God to do so?

**The arrogance of Calvinism implies that we come to Christ once to be forgiven and need not ask for forgiveness again. **
We are sinners - even when we are in Christ. We don’t stop sinning - we cooperate with his grace and try not to sin, but we are flawed humans.

**Paul understood this well when he said: **
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

Like I said - Paul understood this well - too bad Calvinists don’t . . .

 

[Nicea325]

Next, this is my primary source. Please directly address it

Quote:
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times;

I’ll ask you again,where does the above refer to a FIXED canon? If it is a ‘fixed’ canon,then it is strange we have no empirical evidence outside your quote.So you mean the above is the ONLY proof of a FIXED canon? You see and read 22 books and you believe it is proof a canon existed.

Josephus is a primary source. You can disagree with what this means, and I would like to see what that looks like, but in good conscience how can you say I do not provide a primary source when I do.
Josephus states the Jews do not have a multitude of books among them. Josephus states that they do not contradict or disagree with one another.

Well I got news for you? The very same primary sources you think PROVES a canon existed is used by those who also believe no fixed canon was set prior to Christ. Sorry,but I am on the side many scholars because no primary source we possess is CONCLUSIVE proving a canon existed prior to Christ. And why? Because it is not conclusive nor do they make strong references to a fixed canon already in existence or recently being ratified. More important,if a canon was already in place,then one must ask why Jesus or the Apostles or NT writers never bother to mention it?

Finally, you did not answer my question about Paul and the OT.

Ask it again. BTW: Are you aware of some of the NT writers and St.Paul quoting/using Apocyphal writings?