“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[phoenixrrt62]

once saved, always saved?

Yeah.I have a problem with that.

So, if this were the case, even though I question the existence of a god, I am saved? Once upon a time, when I was a teen, I prayed to god to be saved, in the presence of other Christians. Obviously I’ve lapsed BIG time since then…
Do I consider myself still ‘saved’?
NO. That would be like a slap in the face to devout Christans who take faith seriously, yeah?

That’s like saying that b/c I was baptized catholic, I am catholic. That would be ludicrous at best.
I don’t consider myself catholic any more than I consider myself Jewish.

 

[Nicea325]

“Once Saved Always Saved” or “eternal security” is one doctrine that some Protestants believe in that I disagree with heavily. I personally feel that the Bible and Sacred Tradition is quite clear on the fact that we are not saved simply by responding to an altar call and that we are then free to live life as we want and not worry about losing our salvation. I am not saying that all those who believe in “once saved always saved” believe this either but I am certain that some do. I know that some people use this doctrine to justify living a sinful lifestyle. I do not see that as right.

I agree with you 100%! The whole notion one is saved by merely accepting Jesus is rather weak and arrogant.

 

[jericho777]

The arrogance of Calvinism implies that we come to Christ once to be forgiven and need not ask for forgiveness again.
**We are sinners - **even when we are in Christ. We don’t stop sinning - we cooperate with his grace and try not to sin, but we are flawed humans.

Paul understood this well when he said:
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

Like I said - Paul understood this well - too bad Calvinists don’t . . .

Why do you have to open your post with an insult we are just trying to have a civil conversation.

It is God who gives the grace to follow Him. You are very correct that we continue to sin but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and brings us to repentence.

Paul also says this And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[DavidKays]

I know that Judas submitted to Satan’s will, much like we do, even after being saved But prove to me that Judas was not a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary! Yes he sinned, just like he others, but if not Judas, it would have been someone else. Please reread the part about the Jews not being able to execute anyone, and then tell me how they were going to accomplish this. Judas was the one; God allowed Satan to enter him!

Excuse me sir but Judas allowed Satan to enter him not God. And the act of calvary would have happened with or without the betrayal of Judas. I have a phrase that I teach in my Orthodox Church and it is this. The only power the devil has is the power you give him. Whether Judas as you say was saved from the beginning I really do not know. Salvation is not only occurring throughout your life but in the end what really matters is your relationship before the Lord before you died. To get Jesus to Calvary. It is interesting how protestants and catholics debate about this. How about an Orthodox perspective. From the Church Fathers of the Eastern Church specificaly St.John Chrysostom we see this. Instead of looking at the sinfulness of men this Church Father saw the crucification in this manner. The crucifixation was not so much to show the sinfulness of men and the love of God but to reveal or expose the Evil One. Why did the devil attack Jesus? Why did the devil through Judas had over Jesus to the Pharisees? The Saint said the attack from the devil were to serve no purpose because he the devil will have been defeated. The only pleasure the devil had may be was to see Jesus suffer. But the crucifixation was necessary says the saint because it revealed or precisely exposed the Evil One. Because evil can disguise itself as good it was necessary for God to sacrifice His Son to show us this. Look at Judas says the saint. He was passionate at first yet all the while evil thoughts creeped into his soul. He looked pretty good and later when evil thoughts began to seeped in he decided to destroy Jesus. This is why God allowed His Son to die. To show how evil can operate in the world. There is alot more from this saint and please take the time to read him. God Bless!

 

[elvisman]

Why do you have to open your post with an insult we are just trying to have a civil conversation.

It is God who gives the grace to follow Him. You are very correct that we continue to sin but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and brings us to repentence.

Paul also says this And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Again - and I have pointed this out ad nauseam:
What Paul means by “predestined” here referes to the timelessness of eternity. Whereas, he KNOWS what we all chose - God doesn’t MAKE us do what he wants. In Calvin’s arrogance, he perverted this idea into the doctrine of irresistable grace and predestination.

**God doesn’t predestine ANYBODY for hell - not ONE, single person. 1 Tim. 2:4 emphatically states that God wills the salvation of ALL and that they come to a knowledge of the truth. Some of us will choose to reject his grace and others will accept it and cooperate with it to endure to the end (Matt. 24:13).

 

[Rightlydivide]

Next, this is my primary source. Please directly address it

I’ll ask you again,where does the above refer to a FIXED canon? If it is a ‘fixed’ canon,then it is strange we have no empirical evidence outside your quote.So you mean the above is the ONLY proof of a FIXED canon? You see and read 22 books and you believe it is proof a canon existed.

Well I got news for you? The very same primary sources you think PROVES a canon existed is used by those who also believe no fixed canon was set prior to Christ. Sorry,but I am on the side many scholars because no primary source we possess is CONCLUSIVE proving a canon existed prior to Christ. And why? Because it is not conclusive nor do they make strong references to a fixed canon already in existence or recently being ratified. More important,if a canon was already in place,then one must ask why Jesus or the Apostles or NT writers never bother to mention it?

Ask it again. BTW: Are you aware of some of the NT writers and St.Paul quoting/using Apocyphal writings?

Did Paul believe the OT canon was open or something to figure out? Lets do look at what the Bible says.
The quote says that their is not disagreement between the Jews. That is what the quote means.

 

[jericho777]

Again - and I have pointed this out ad nauseam:
What Paul means by "predestined" here referes to the timelessness of eternity. Whereas, he KNOWS what we all chose - God doesn’t MAKE us do what he wants. In Calvin’s arrogance, he perverted this idea into the doctrine of irresistable grace and predestination.

God doesn’t predestine ANYBODY for hell - not ONE, single person. 1 Tim. 2:4 emphatically states that God wills the salvation of ALL and that they come to a knowledge of the truth. Some of us will choose to *reject *his grace and others will accept it and cooperate with it to endure to the end (Matt. 24:13).

Why does Rom 9 state
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Why is it fair that some reject God and are lost? Why dosen’t He save them all? How come we are not all given the same chance at salvation?

 

[Pitcharan]

Why does Rom 9 state
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Why is it fair that some reject God and are lost? Why dosen’t He save them all? How come we are not all given the same chance at salvation?

Dear Jericho,
your above referred “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”, merely explains that God who is outside time, foreknew that Esau will not seek God but go according to the flesh. This is confirmed when Esau sells his birthright as firstborn in exchange for “lentil soup”. He and Jacob were given the same chance for salvation. While Jacob was led by the Spirirt, Esau went according to his flesh. Many find fault with Rebecca for the trick played on Issac. Even if she had not played the trick, the fact remains the Esau had sold his birthright to Jacob and hence had no right to claim the father’s blessing.

 

[guanophore]

Very well put this is a perfect picture of irresistable grace. He gives us the grace to love Him.

You said on another thread that you don’t consider yourself Protestant, or protesting anything, so I just want to let you know that this Calvinistic idea of “irresistable grace” comes from Calvin, and is most definitely a protest of the Catholic faith.

The arrogance of Calvinism implies that we come to Christ once to be forgiven and need not ask for forgiveness again.
**We are sinners - **even when we are in Christ. We don’t stop sinning - we cooperate with his grace and try not to sin, but we are flawed humans.

Paul understood this well when he said:
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

Like I said - Paul understood this well - too bad Calvinists don’t . . .

Actually, I have had Calvanists on CAF tell me that we NEVER come to God for forgiveness. He decides who He will save, saves them, and they repent (turn from unbelief to belief) and that there is no repentance from sins (unnecessary) and no need to ask for that which was laready provided on the cross.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you have to open your post with an insult we are just trying to have a civil conversation.

I am sure that Calvin will not be concerned that we find his theology arrogant. We also find the fact that he felt it necessary to replace the Teaching of the Apostles with his own ideas arrogant. It is not an insult, just a statement of fact. It would be equally arrogant for any of us to do it. It is not personal.

It is God who gives the grace to follow Him. You are very correct that we continue to sin but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and brings us to repentence.

I object to the notion that it is “normal for us to fall into sin”. Once we are delivered from sin, we don’t have to return to it. God wants us to live a life without sin, and he has given us the power of the HS to uphold us.

Paul also says this And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

I think most of those who have been influenced by Calvin confound God’s love with His salvation. God loves us so much, He will love us as He lets us walk right through the gates of hell.

I also note that this “golden chain of salvation” you cite above is in the past tense, and refers to those whose salvation has already been completed. It is misapplied to the saints still on earth.

 

[guanophore]

Why does Rom 9 state
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Why is it fair that some reject God and are lost? Why dosen’t He save them all? How come we are not all given the same chance at salvation?

Everyone has the same chance at salvation. Some do not want it. God knows which ones those will be in advance.

 

[guanophore]

Did Paul believe the OT canon was open or something to figure out? Lets do look at what the Bible says.
The quote says that their is not disagreement between the Jews. That is what the quote means.

Paul, like Jesus and the other Apostles used the Alexandrian Septuagint. Some of the Jews (Saducees) used only the first five books of Moses (Torah). The Pharisees accepted the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms. there were also “the writings” (wisdom books).

There was arguement over which books were inspired. Two hundred years after the death of Christ, the Palestinian Jews closed a canon that left out books that made reference to Jesus,and had been adopted by the Christian Church.

 

[CARV]

Everyone has the same chance at salvation. Some do not want it. God knows which ones those will be in advance.

By the above passage one must conclude that Esau didn’t “have the same chance at salvation” as his brother. The passage clearly states that salvation doesn’t “depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy”. It does matter what man chooses or doesn’t choose or whether or not God’s sees those choices in advance. Man’s effort or desire doesn’t figure into the equation. Only God’s merciciful election. This is the plain understnding of the text, no matter how scary it seems to us. This is why Paul answer many people’s objections in advance…

Romans 9:19

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Pitcharan]

By the above passage one must conclude that Esau didn’t “have the same chance at salvation” as his brother. The passage clearly states that salvation doesn’t “depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy”. It does matter what man chooses or doesn’t choose or whether or not God’s sees those choices in advance. Man’s effort or desire doesn’t figure into the equation. Only God’s merciciful election. This is the plain understnding of the text, no matter how scary it seems to us. This is why Paul answer many people’s objections in advance…

Romans 9:19

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I thank and praise God for the gift of you. May your tribe increase!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Has he? I am not aware of ever being forced to believe God so I guess I freely choose to believe and try to be good. But the idea of free will really doesn’t sync will with Romans 9. Some people were made to be glorified and some people were made so their destruction could glorify God. Romans 9 can can be a tough pill to swallow.

Did you? There is a type of love called altruism. Does it exist? Absolutely. Romans 9 can be misunderstood and often is.

I don’t view it as being “forced” to love him. I was attracted to my wife. I sought her out and I won her heart. Now we are married for going on 7 years. I don’t look at it as forcing her but I loved her and she couldn’t resist my charm.

There’s a big difference between choosing to love a person and choosing to love God.

Gods loves His chosen. He sends His grace to them. They will taste of His goodness I will love Him too. Nobody is so evil as to not be overwhelmed at the All-goodness of God and freely give themselves to Him.

Satan worshipers? Sinners whose sins are so atrocious that I can’t even mention them here? Lots of people don’t freely give themselves to God! If they did, why aren’t they doing it right now? Why are people being murdered? Why are people suffering extreme emotional and physical pain while others sit and enjoy the show? Why is man the only animal that kills for fun?

Why are people going to hell right now, this very minute? Why didn’t they give themselves to God? If nobody is so evil as to not be overwhelmed at the All-goodness of God why are there people in hell?

If you have children, imagine for a moment that your child freely wants to choose to abuse drugs. Wouldn’t you do everthing in your power to stop them? God doesn’t even have to use force. He can simply touch the soul with His grace. Do you believe that a person can be so evil that they can resist His love? How is such a God All-Good or All-Powerful? He can’t even save His own.

I’m sorry but I would prefer not to answer any questions about children for personal reasons.

Simply put, I don’t believe in a God that can fail…period. If He wanted the damned to be saved, He would have saved them. A God that would allow His own children to be lost doesn’t square with the Bible orn common sense. That is not All-loving.

THEN WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE IN HELL? I keep asking this question and nobody answers! Are you saying that God WANTS his children to suffer everlasting torment and pain in hell? If He truly loves His children, why doesn’t He take them to heaven, have a good sit-down with them and clear things up? Why are there people who willingly sin so atrociously that they go to hell? Where is God to help them? Why doesn’t He show His goodness, love, and mercy to them so they won’t fail? Because they do fail, you know. They fail and they sin and they die and they have chosen to go as far away from God as possible. They don’t want to be with God and it is just that they be in hell.

A truly loving God gives us a gift of free will. That is the only way our “love” cannot be forced. Forced “love” is not love at all. It is fear or it is helplessness. Does God want a group of slaves here on earth or does He want people who choose Him freely? A truly loving God gives us the ability to make the choice. And this isn’t a trick. He doesn’t turn around at the end and say “Just kiddin’! I wouldn’t send you to hell!” We make the choice. The only way to love is to honestly choose to love, knowing we have the option of choosing to hate and knowing that God will respect our choice no matter what it may be.

Who in thier right mind would say "I loved my son so much that I let him be tortered to death by his own choice rather than to intervene by persuading him to change his ways’’?

God the Father let Jesus be tortured to death by His own choice rather than intervening to save Him. It was God the Father’s choice, too. He let His own Son be scourged, beaten, spat upon, cursed, laughed at, mocked, have a cross made of thorns pressed down on his head, forced to drag a heavy cross on a shoulder which was most likely already dislocated, let Him fall three times then try to get back up, let heavy nails be hammered through his carpal tunnels and feet and then let Him suffocate to death, slowly over three hours, ripped, torn, and bleeding, in literal agony, until He could not take another minute more and died.

Does that sound like a loving Father to you? We as humans can’t understand the immensity of the love God has for us. He loves us so much He is willing to let us go, if that is our wish.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Why does Rom 9 state
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Why is it fair that some reject God and are lost? Why dosen’t He save them all? How come we are not all given the same chance at salvation?

It’s fair because God loves us and allows us to choose. We’re not cats and dogs at the humane society - we are people made in God’s image and given the gift of free will. We are allowed to reject God and it’s obvious that it is done a lot.

We are given the same chance at salvation. Some of us are more blessed and that is God’s choice. Some of us have a harder time at life but we can still attain salvation. We can all attain salvation if we want to.

The phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” can be easily misunderstood to mean that God hated Esau - one of His own creations. But:

The literal rendering, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul’s statement. In Semitic usage “hate” means to love less; cf Luke 14:26 with Matthew 10:37. Israel’s unbelief reflects the mystery of the divine election that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Matthew 3:9; John 8:39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point.

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm
[bolding is added]

 

[jericho777]

Dear Jericho,
your above referred “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”, merely explains that God who is outside time, foreknew that Esau will not seek God but go according to the flesh. This is confirmed when Esau sells his birthright as firstborn in exchange for “lentil soup”. He and Jacob were given the same chance for salvation. While Jacob was led by the Spirirt, Esau went according to his flesh. Many find fault with Rebecca for the trick played on Issac. Even if she had not played the trick, the fact remains the Esau had sold his birthright to Jacob and hence had no right to claim the father’s blessing.

Hi Pitcharan

Says BEFORE they had done good or bad in order that God’s purpose in election might stand. God is saying it is not about what they would do but it was God who chooses according to His purpose of election.

How was it that God gave Jacob the Spirit but did not give it to Esau. Jacobs name even means supplanter, one who accomplishes through trickery or deceit. Surely he was not chosen on anything he had done. Just read about him and you will see what a character he was.

 

[jericho777]

You said on another thread that you don’t consider yourself Protestant, or protesting anything, so I just want to let you know that this Calvinistic idea of “irresistable grace” comes from Calvin, and is most definitely a protest of the Catholic faith.

Actually, I have had Calvanists on CAF tell me that we NEVER come to God for forgiveness. He decides who He will save, saves them, and they repent (turn from unbelief to belief) and that there is no repentance from sins (unnecessary) and no need to ask for that which was laready provided on the cross.

No I don’t and I’m not protesting anything. I want to restore back to the first century. That’s the starting point for me.

Calvin is a known an easy reference point. He used Augustine, who used Paul. I don’t study or plan to study the reformation. I know little about its history. I think the position of irresistible grace makes great biblical sense.

As far as repentance goes it is something we are commanded to do by God. The Holy Spirit convicts us and brings us into repentance.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Paul, like Jesus and the other Apostles used the Alexandrian Septuagint. Some of the Jews (Saducees) used only the first five books of Moses (Torah). The Pharisees accepted the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms. there were also “the writings” (wisdom books).

There was arguement over which books were inspired. Two hundred years after the death of Christ, the Palestinian Jews closed a canon that left out books that made reference to Jesus,and had been adopted by the Christian Church.

So essentially you do not believe Josephus when he says all Jews used the same canon but you interpret his statement about the law has excluding any other books in the canon by the Saducees?
Or perhaps I should ask what primary source do the scholars you believe use to ascertain this belief in what the Saducees had as a canon?
Thanks

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan

Says BEFORE they had done good or bad in order that God’s purpose in election might stand. God is saying it is not about what they would do but it was God who chooses according to His purpose of election.

How was it that God gave Jacob the Spirit but did not give it to Esau. Jacobs name even means supplanter, one who accomplishes through trickery or deceit. Surely he was not chosen on anything he had done. Just read about him and you will see what a character he was.

Dear Jericho,
I am only the clay and will not dare to question what kind of pot has God made of me.

That is not the issue in the above case. God did not delbrately create Esau to be flesh inclined and Jacob to have His Spirit lead him. He only foreknew their ways.

Jacob, means deceiver (literally leg puller). I’ve read Genesis fully; I know Jacob was no saint. But I can’t help being in awe of his ability to realise the presence of God and spontaneously worship. This is what the land of Israel failed to do when the long awaited Messiah came to them.

Esau walked according to the flesh of his own choice; he could easily part with his birthright when he faced hunger pangs. That only shows how weak he had become. He disobeyed and saddened his father by marrying a Canaanite woman, in spite of being warned of being led astray. Again an example of his weak flesh.

*“That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit.” *