“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[jericho777]

It’s fair because God loves us and allows us to choose. We’re not cats and dogs at the humane society - we are people made in God’s image and given the gift of free will. We are allowed to reject God and it’s obvious that it is done a lot.

We are given the same chance at salvation. Some of us are more blessed and that is God’s choice. Some of us have a harder time at life but we can still attain salvation. We can all attain salvation if we want to.

The phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” can be easily misunderstood to mean that God hated Esau - one of His own creations. But:

The literal rendering, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul’s statement. In Semitic usage “hate” means to love less; cf Luke 14:26 with Matthew 10:37. Israel’s unbelief reflects the mystery of the*** divine election*** that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Matthew 3:9; John 8:39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point.

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm
[bolding is added]

I’m confused first you say PEOPLE choose to go to hell now in your quote you say “it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes.” It seems it is God who elects people to salvation.

Also there is no person so evil that they are beyond God’s grace or ability to be saved.
RE:
“Satan worshipers? Sinners whose sins are so atrocious that I can’t even mention them here? Lots of people don’t freely give themselves to God! If they did, why aren’t they doing it right now? Why are people being murdered? Why are people suffering extreme emotional and physical pain while others sit and enjoy the show?”

 

[Pitcharan]

…
I’m confused first you say PEOPLE choose to go to hell now in your quote you say “it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes.” It seems it is God who elects people to salvation.

Also there is no person so evil that they are beyond God’s grace or ability to be saved.
RE:
“Satan worshipers? Sinners whose sins are so atrocious that I can’t even mention them here? Lots of people don’t freely give themselves to God! If they did, why aren’t they doing it right now? Why are people being murdered? Why are people suffering extreme emotional and physical pain while others sit and enjoy the show?”

I am making a humble attempt to clear your confusion and for clarity sake using bullet points:

• Predestination is not without reason or basis. Only that we are incapable of comprehending God’s reason and also have no right to demand God’s explanation
• If we are convinced that God’s ways are perfectly just, then why these doubts.
• Who are we to decide that no on is unworthy of God’s mercy
• Read Daniel. He is disturbed after seeing a vision of the damned only to be told: “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”

 

[jlhargus]

Mark

 

[jericho777]

I am sure that Calvin will not be concerned that we find his theology arrogant. We also find the fact that he felt it necessary to replace the Teaching of the Apostles with his own ideas arrogant. It is not an insult, just a statement of fact. It would be equally arrogant for any of us to do it. It is not personal.

Why is it you have to open your post with a justification of insults. I have not opened my posts this way. It seems when you run out of ideas that’s when the vitriol surfaces.

I object to the notion that it is “normal for us to fall into sin”. Once we are delivered from sin, we don’t have to return to it. God wants us to live a life without sin, and he has given us the power of the HS to uphold us.

Sin is not the goal for the believer righteousness is. However at some point in time we will.

I think most of those who have been influenced by Calvin confound God’s love with His salvation. God loves us so much, He will love us as He lets us walk right through the gates of hell.

He has not allowed me to make many bad decisions I wanted to make. But sometimes He does.

I also note that this “golden chain of salvation” you cite above is in the past tense, and refers to those whose salvation has already been completed. It is misapplied to the saints still on earth.

We were predestined before the foundations of the world. Although we have not seen it ,from God’s perspective it is already completed.

 

[jericho777]

I am making a humble attempt to clear your confusion and for clarity sake using bullet points:

• Predestination is not without reason or basis. Only that we are incapable of comprehending God’s reason and also have no right to demand God’s explanation
• If we are convinced that God’s ways are perfectly just, then why these doubts.
• Who are we to decide that no on is unworthy of God’s mercy
• Read Daniel. He is disturbed after seeing a vision of the damned only to be told: “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”

Littlesoldier is making the claim that there are some who are beyond salvation because they are too evil.

I believe no one is beyond Gods grace to be saved.

 

[jericho777]

Dear Jericho,
I am only the clay and will not dare to question what kind of pot has God made of me.

That is not the issue in the above case. God did not delbrately create Esau to be flesh inclined and Jacob to have His Spirit lead him. He only foreknew their ways.

Jacob, means deceiver (literally leg puller). I’ve read Genesis fully; I know Jacob was no saint. But I can’t help being in awe of his ability to realise the presence of God and spontaneously worship. This is what the land of Israel failed to do when the long awaited Messiah came to them.

Esau walked according to the flesh of his own choice; he could easily part with his birthright when he faced hunger pangs. That only shows how weak he had become. He disobeyed and saddened his father by marrying a Canaanite woman, in spite of being warned of being led astray. Again an example of his weak flesh.

*“That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit.” *

Hi Pitcharan
God is saying the basis for His choice between Jacob and Esau was not based on their future actions. It is His prerogative beyond any action they would make to choose Jacob for salvation and not Esau.

The difference you see between Jacob and Esau is the Holy Spirit working in the life of Jacob as you said. He had a new nature enabling him to serve God. Esau was walking in his old nature (no Holy Spirit)and therefore incapable of salvation. Unless God gives His Holy Spirit we are lost.

You say “I am only the clay and will not dare to question what kind of pot has God made of me.” Which tells me you believe it is God who decides who you are to be. But then you deny God’s sovereignty by saying Esau chose not to be saved.

 

[guanophore]

No I don’t and I’m not protesting anything. I want to restore back to the first century. That’s the starting point for me.

I appreciate that you want purity in the Church.

However, the small mustard seed that was planted in the first century has now grown into a large mustard tree. You can’t put it back into a seed.

By embracing heresies such as Calvanism, by definition you are protesting against Catholicism. You may not realize or intend this, but that is the result. You see, if you have it in you head that you need to “restore back to the first century”, you must first assume that what Christ committed to the Church in the first century was lost. This assumption is the foundation for all the Protesatant denominations today.

Calvin is a known an easy reference point. He used Augustine, who used Paul. I don't study or plan to study the reformation. I know little about its history. I think the position of irresistible grace makes great biblical sense.

Well then I urge you strongly, Jer, to engage in these studies. Your goal of finding the purity of the Church as it was in the 1st century will not be met by starting with innovative doctrines that were invented by men 1600 years after Christ. Study it, know the history, and continue to study the doctrine and history all the way back to the early Fathers of the Church. If you do this, you will find the purity you seek.

As far as repentance goes it is something we are commanded to do by God. The Holy Spirit convicts us and brings us into repentance.

Yes, but the idea that it is not necesary to repent from sins was quite shocking to me. This particular Calvanist, a preacher of a very large congregation, taught both there and here that the only repentance was from unbelief, to belief. It was a real eye opener for me, because I had never heard this before, and it seemed like such a drastic departure from the Apostolic faith, I never fathomed it!

 

[guanophore]

So essentially you do not believe Josephus when he says all Jews used the same canon but you interpret his statement about the law has excluding any other books in the canon by the Saducees?
Or perhaps I should ask what primary source do the scholars you believe use to ascertain this belief in what the Saducees had as a canon?
Thanks

This information informs my understanding about Josephus. He must therefore be talking about all the Jews of Palestine, or all the Jews of the diaspora, or all the Jews with whom He was acquainted. This is part of the task of textual criticism. One must understand what is written in the light of it’s context. This statment of Josephus is part of the historical context that must be reconciled with other facts that we also have.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan
God is saying the basis for His choice between Jacob and Esau was not based on their future actions. It is His prerogative beyond any action they would make to choose Jacob for salvation and not Esau.

The difference you see between Jacob and Esau is the Holy Spirit working in the life of Jacob as you said. He had a new nature enabling him to serve God. Esau was walking in his old nature (no Holy Spirit)and therefore incapable of salvation. Unless God gives His Holy Spirit we are lost.

You say “I am only the clay and will not dare to question what kind of pot has God made of me.” Which tells me you believe it is God who decides who you are to be. But then you deny God’s sovereignty by saying Esau chose not to be saved.

Dear Jericho,
How is God’s sovereignity denied by Esau going according to the flesh. Did I not clearly state earlier that I am convinced that God is perfectly just. I never said or implied that a sovereign God will arbitarily prefix who should be led by His Spirit and who should be enslaved by the flesh. Foreknowledge and predestination are two different things. Predestination is election by the perfectly just God who is outside time and decides by foreknowledge. who will enter His kingdom. No one dare question or demand explanation or basis for His election.

The comaprison of clay and potter, is only to stress “how dare we question God’s just nature”. The book of Job will clarify best.

 

[guanophore]

Why is it you have to open your post with a justification of insults. I have not opened my posts this way. It seems when you run out of ideas that’s when the vitriol surfaces.

I apologize if I have offended you Jer. But from my point of view, arrogance is one of the most basic attitudes of mankind. Adam and Eve fell into hubris in the Garden, and humanity has been doing it ever since. There is nothing about Calvin that is any more prone to arrogance than the rest of humanity. For me, observing, noticing and naming this is not an “insult”. Why take offense? I mean why be any more offended by his arrogance than you would be your own, or mine? It is the nature of our being to be arrogant.

Sin is not the goal for the believer righteousness is. However at some point in time we will.

One of the most serious departures from the Aposotlic faith is that the saved person has to sin. This is simply a lie from the pit. We are redeemed from sin by His grace. We no longer are slaves to sin, and we do not have to sin.

We were predestined before the foundations of the world. Although we have not seen it ,from God’s perspective it is already completed.

If we could see it, we would probabaly all have that purity you are looking for in the 1st cent. church.

Littlesoldier is making the claim that there are some who are beyond salvation because they are too evil.

I believe no one is beyond Gods grace to be saved.

No, I don’t think so. Some are beyond salvation because they have already made their choice, and it has been sealed for eternity. There is a gulf between hell and the rest of existence, so that no one can go there and return.

 Unless God gives His Holy Spirit we are lost.

This is so true. Interestingly, Calvin taught that this happened before a person could will it, where the Apostles taught that a person could choose.

 

[Rightlydivide]

This information informs my understanding about Josephus. He must therefore be talking about all the Jews of Palestine, or all the Jews of the diaspora, or all the Jews with whom He was acquainted. This is part of the task of textual criticism. One must understand what is written in the light of it’s context. This statment of Josephus is part of the historical context that must be reconciled with other facts that we also have.

Do we have any other facts about the Sadducees and their canon outside of Josephus that speaks directly to this view of a smaller canon?

 

[jericho777]

I appreciate that you want purity in the Church.

However, the small mustard seed that was planted in the first century has now grown into a large mustard tree. You can’t put it back into a seed.

By embracing heresies such as Calvanism, by definition you are protesting against Catholicism. You may not realize or intend this, but that is the result. You see, if you have it in you head that you need to “restore back to the first century”, you must first assume that what Christ committed to the Church in the first century was lost. This assumption is the foundation for all the Protesatant denominations today.

Well then I urge you strongly, Jer, to engage in these studies. Your goal of finding the purity of the Church as it was in the 1st century will not be met by starting with innovative doctrines that were invented by men 1600 years after Christ. Study it, know the history, and continue to study the doctrine and history all the way back to the early Fathers of the Church. If you do this, you will find the purity you seek.

Yes, but the idea that it is not necesary to repent from sins was quite shocking to me. This particular Calvanist, a preacher of a very large congregation, taught both there and here that the only repentance was from unbelief, to belief. It was a real eye opener for me, because I had never heard this before, and it seemed like such a drastic departure from the Apostolic faith, I never fathomed it!

When I read scripture it leads me to a different place than the cc. For sure Christ’s church is global just not only in Rome.

As I said my goal is to return to the faith of the first century. I’m not content to take any churches word for it catholic or protestant. There are many who say the catholic churches actions have put them at odds with the Word of God hence you are now protestant by your actions.

It would be arrogant to think God is bound more to an organization than He is to the truth of His Word. Remember He cast aside Israel’s religious leadership because they were corrupt. He is always looking for a faithful remnant.

Jesus paid the price on the cross for our sins past, present and future. Yet scripture still tells us we need to repent period. I have never heard that taught before either. It reminds me of a former co worker who when he went to get married in the cc. The priest told him that he needed to have sex with his future wife to see if they were compatible. He had no idea that it was unbiblical.

 

[elvisman]

Why does Rom 9 state
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Why is it fair that some reject God and are lost? Why dosen’t He save them all? How come we are not all given the same chance at salvation?

God REDEEMED the world by the work on the cross because he wills the salvation of ALL and wants them to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). However, he doesn’t force his will on all.

SALVATION comes when we accept and cooperate with that grace of redemption and endure to the end, doing the Father’s will (Matt. 7:21 24:13, John 3:16).

Whereas God may predestine some for his will (to be saved) like John the Baptist, Moses or Jacob - he DOESN’T create anybody for eternal damnation.

 

[elvisman]

Littlesoldier is making the claim that there are some who are beyond salvation because they are too evil.

I believe no one is beyond Gods grace to be saved.

If you’re a Calvinist you don’t . . .

 

[wwolverine]

While I am not one to say that once you are saved, you have a license to sin, but I do wonder about all of God’s amazing servants who sinned after being “saved”. Are they going to Heaven? When you and your wife fight, or she lies, or otherwise sin, are you willing to forgive her, or do you tell her to pack her bags, and hit the door? After knowing Christ like I do, I can’t imagine that anyone who claims to be in Christ, deliberately going on a sin spree This would be totally contradictory to Jesus’s teaching. We know that according to 1John 1:9, that God forgives our sins, if we confess them! Let me ask this question; actually two questions: There are catholic inmates in our prison, many doing life terms. Are they going to Heaven? And if your son/daughter killed someone, and went to prison, do you disown them; are they Hell bound?

What could be the significances of these?

1. Adam and Eve sin, just once they disobey, and what happens?
2. Ten commandments, if you break one, you have broken all?

 

[jericho777]

If you’re a Calvinist you don’t . . .

Why are you more interested in labels than the word of God?

Picharan believes there is no one that is beyond Gods grace that He cannot save. I believe the same thing also. Please stop telling me what I believe and focus more on what the word of God says. Thank you.

 

[jericho777]

God REDEEMED the world by the work on the cross because he wills the salvation of ALL and wants them to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). However, he doesn’t force his will on all.

**SALVATION **comes when we accept and cooperate with that grace of redemption and endure to the end, doing the Father’s will (Matt. 7:21 24:13, John 3:16).

Whereas God may predestine some for his will (to be saved) like John the Baptist, Moses or Jacob - he DOESN’T create anybody for eternal damnation.

If Christ redeemed the world on the cross it must be limited because only a few go to heaven. We are forced to have our old will it is not our choice.

You cannot come to Him unless He calls you. I totally rely on Him to save me. If my salvation is based on my will then I will be lost.

If He can elect some to salvation the default is they are elected to be lost. Pharoh the anti christ and Judas do come to mind.

 

[jerry_kelso]

My dear Jerry, I still doubt if you read my posts completely. I will try again to present my beliefs clearly:

1. A saved person falling into sin again is a normal thing. He/she will keep falling only to rise again a stronger person.
2. The apparent no. of chances, in my opinion are not chances. It is part of the process called salvation which is working on a saved (predestined) person. It is a process by which he/she is divinised to enable co-existence with God in heaven.
3. The process may be completed on earth or may extend after death unto purgatory NOT hell.

Now, coming to the Israelites who perished in the desert of Sin, never say they were damned. The bible never said or implied so.

If you are willing to accept it, then I can point out, where the bible says that they were NOT damned.

But I remember an earlier occasion whren you sought a bibilical proof, but remained unbelieving even after I provided it.

Yours in the Lord Jesus Christ
Pitcharan

Pitcharan: I’ve read your posts and I addressed one of your scriptural proofs.

1. If a saved person falling into sin is normal you don’t much believe in the power of God to hellp in overcoming sin…
2. King Saul, Annaias and Sapphira, and Demas didn’t grow stronger in God from their experience.
3. Those who go to hell are sinners and there is only one recorded judgement for sinners and that is called the Great White Throne judgement. For Christians they go to Heaven and the only judgement is the judgement of the believers which concerns their works not their soul.
4. The example of the Israelites died because of disobeience to God which was a result of sin under the covenant of Mosaic law under a blessing and cursing system.
   5.If you’re gonna’ try and prove purgatory you’re gonna’ have to give solid scriptures and more logical reasoning instead of giving conjecture to try cast doubt on solid scriptures and logical reasoning that I’ve given.
   God Bless Jerry Kelso

 

[guanophore]

If Christ redeemed the world on the cross it must be limited because only a few go to heaven. We are forced to have our old will it is not our choice.

Well, the atonement is not limited. Just the number of people who avail themselves of it.

What does that mean "we are forced to have our “old will”?

You cannot come to Him unless He calls you.

Well, He calls everyone! But we agree, not everyone answers the call.

I totally rely on Him to save me. If my salvation is based on my will then I will be lost.

If He can elect some to salvation the default is they are elected to be lost. Pharoh the anti christ and Judas do come to mind.

Salvation is not based upon human will, but God’s grace. We don’t rely on ourselves to be saved, just because He allows us to choose.

When I read scripture it leads me to a different place than the cc.

Have you considered what might cause this?

Have you considered that you never understood the Catholic faith before you left? You have made some statements here that indicate you were not well catechized.

As I said my goal is to return to the faith of the first century.

Can I ask why this is? I am curious why you would think that the Church should not grow.

I’m not content to take any churches word for it catholic or protestant. There are many who say the catholic churches actions have put them at odds with the Word of God hence you are now protestant by your actions.

I am not sure what you mean by this. The Church is infallibe, and therefore, cannot err.

It would be arrogant to think God is bound more to an organization than He is to the truth of His Word.

Yes, it would. It would also be arrogant to assume that the two cannot co-exist comfortably. the Church founded by Christ has organization, structure, and authority.

Remember He cast aside Israel’s religious leadership because they were corrupt. He is always looking for a faithful remnant.

Yes, but He did not fail in His promises to Israel, and He has not failed in His promises to His Church. In order for your assumptions to be valid, He would have had to leave her orphaned, and fail to lead her into “all Truth” as He promised.

 

[elvisman]

Why are you more interested in labels than the word of God?

Picharan believes there is no one that is beyond Gods grace that He cannot save. I believe the same thing also. Please stop telling me what I believe and focus more on what the word of God says. Thank you.

Hey - I didn’t invent the word Calvinism - nor did I invent it’s false doctrines.
If you’tre not a Calvinist of if you don’t adhere to OSAS - I apologize.

However, if the opposite is true - blame the “Reformers” - not me.