“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[elvisman]

If Christ redeemed the world on the cross it must be limited because only a few go to heaven. We are forced to have our old will it is not our choice.

You cannot come to Him unless He calls you. I totally rely on Him to save me. If my salvation is based on my will then I will be lost.

If He can elect some to salvation the default is they are elected to be lost. Pharoh the anti christ and Judas do come to mind.

You can’t take 1 Tim. 2:4 and claim it is a lie, which is what you’re doing. God wills the salvation of ALL.

Unfortunately, you’re still having a problem understanding REDEMPTION vs SALVATION. Redemption gives us the opportunity to be saved. Without cooperation with the grace that Redemption supplies us with - we cannot be saved. The whole reason Jesus told us to go out into the world and teach all nations (Matt. 28:19-20) was to spread the good news of our Redemption in the finished work of Christ. This is how they come to a knowledge of him and choose whether or not they want to accept this free gift.

Remember - it’s NOT a gift if you have no choice in the mater. God’s gift of grace DEMANDS free will.

---

Pharoah, anti-christ and Judas all made their choices NOT to accept this gift.

 

[Pat_De]

The Holy Spirit is the one who endows us with wisdom, enabling some of us to interpret Scripture. So if you believe you are guided by the Holy Spirit and interpret Scripture, and I believe I am guided by the Holy Spirit and interpret the same Scripture passage differently, whose interpretation is correct?

We both firmly believe we are being guided by the Holy Spirit. How do we decide whose interpretation is correct?

That is an easy question; I am correct. I put the necessary time and effort into it and still am never satisfied.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi! I must say this onced saved always saved is a very interesting topic. Personally I do not think this way. It seems to me more of a protestant ideal because they do bring up the topic " are you saved? “. I do not see salvation as being talked about here. Salvation is not a moment decision but a ongoing process. If I was asked that question by a protestant " are you saved?”, I will answer him by saying " I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." In the movie " War and Peace " the Russian general told his officer not to lose hope just because we will lose this battle. We may lose this battle but there will be others and we may win them. In the final analysis it is the final battle that really matters." This is the real truth for our Faith. Not so all those battles in between our birth to death but the final battle. This is when it really matters. Those who are dying can relate to this. This is why the Lord Jesus started the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy. He knew that the final battle is the most important one. And many do not prepare themselves for their final moments. God has given us a great tool so that we can prepare ourselves for that final battle and not only ourselves but by praying the Chaplet for others especially the dying we can help them also to prepare for that final moment. I do not consider " onced saved " really important to me. What is important for me is my relationship with God. Meaning this that I do not longer fear Him but I now love Him. You want this more than anything else in the world. To love God. Fall in love with Him. Argue with Him! Praise Him! Tell Him off just like Job! Question Him! Actually He likes that the most. When you question Him. I do not mean about knowledge but to question His motives. Thank Him! Understand Him! Ask Him why! Throw your fist at Him if He seems He is not listening! Understand His motives! He doesn’t mind you telling Him off. At least you are being honest with Him. Just as a wife can show her feelings to her husband so the Lord is willing to understand you. Do not be scared to reveal your true feelings. He wants the truth from you! Be like Job and do not hide your feelings. When the PM of Italy was assasinated in the 1960’s after many attempts from the Pope to intercede for him failed the PM was buried at a funeral with the Holy Father presiding. In astonishment the Pope chastise God in front of millions of viewers. He got after God. The result of this from the Pope began a change of the Red Brigade that killed the PM. Within a year the band of people disbanded and they all confessed their wrong doing. Sometimes getting after God can do alot of good. Remind Him of His duty. Tell Him about how much you love Him! Tell Him how much you are grateful! Tell Him everything! He is your husband! Argue with Him just like any wife who argues with her husband and man you are going to see how much this guy ( I mean God ) loves you! He ain’t going to give you up. You might want to give Him up but not so He will towards you. Listen! You want the best husband in the world then look to God. You can fall in love with Him and as the scriptures says " Seek first the kingdom of God ( fall in love with Him first ) and His righteousness and all these other things will be yours as well! God Bless!

 

[Doxiemom]

if being a sinner keeps us out of heaven, few of us are going to make.

So thanks be it to Jesus Who died so that sin may be forgiven. over and over and over again.

There is no end to this mercy as long as we remain faithful in our belief.

unless

you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit

Scripture says it is the one unforgivable sin.

 

[Doxiemom]

Hi! I must say this onced saved always saved is a very interesting topic. Personally I do not think this way. It seems to me more of a protestant ideal because they do bring up the topic " are you saved? “. I do not see salvation as being talked about here. Salvation is not a moment decision but a ongoing process. If I was asked that question by a protestant " are you saved?”, I will answer him by saying " I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." In the movie " War and Peace " the Russian general told his officer not to lose hope just because we will lose this battle. We may lose this battle but there will be others and we may win them. In the final analysis it is the final battle that really matters." This is the real truth for our Faith. Not so all those battles in between our birth to death but the final battle. This is when it really matters. Those who are dying can relate to this. This is why the Lord Jesus started the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy. He knew that the final battle is the most important one. And many do not prepare themselves for their final moments. God has given us a great tool so that we can prepare ourselves for that final battle and not only ourselves but by praying the Chaplet for others especially the dying we can help them also to prepare for that final moment. I do not consider " onced saved " really important to me. What is important for me is my relationship with God. Meaning this that I do not longer fear Him but I now love Him. You want this more than anything else in the world. To love God. Fall in love with Him. Argue with Him! Praise Him! Tell Him off just like Job! Question Him! Actually He likes that the most. When you question Him. I do not mean about knowledge but to question His motives. Thank Him! Understand Him! Ask Him why! Throw your fist at Him if He seems He is not listening! Understand His motives! He doesn’t mind you telling Him off. At least you are being honest with Him. Just as a wife can show her feelings to her husband so the Lord is willing to understand you. Do not be scared to reveal your true feelings. He wants the truth from you! Be like Job and do not hide your feelings. When the PM of Italy was assasinated in the 1960’s after many attempts from the Pope to intercede for him failed the PM was buried at a funeral with the Holy Father presiding. In astonishment the Pope chastise God in front of millions of viewers. He got after God. The result of this from the Pope began a change of the Red Brigade that killed the PM. Within a year the band of people disbanded and they all confessed their wrong doing. Sometimes getting after God can do alot of good. Remind Him of His duty. Tell Him about how much you love Him! Tell Him how much you are grateful! Tell Him everything! He is your husband! Argue with Him just like any wife who argues with her husband and man you are going to see how much this guy ( I mean God ) loves you! He ain’t going to give you up. You might want to give Him up but not so He will towards you. Listen! You want the best husband in the world then look to God. You can fall in love with Him and as the scriptures says " Seek first the kingdom of God ( fall in love with Him first ) and His righteousness and all these other things will be yours as well! God Bless!

it is interesting that you use the word"process". I liken the concept of being born again as real as the process of birth. Some babies are born quickly, others after much labour.

 

[jerry_kelso]

Does anyone who believes in OSAS unconditionally care to challenge Galatians 5:16-21?
God Bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[Pat_De]

What you fail to understand is that we are saved by God’s grace alone - BUT we must cooperate with that grace inorder to be saved **(Luke 13:24, Mt. 25:31-46). **It is not any work of ours - but a cooperation with the grace of redemption won for us on the cross.

The Calvinist position is that we have no choice in the matter. God will save us whether we want it or not. THAT is heresy, friend.

Elvis; you deny God’s total sovereignty in salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that man would never chase after God unless God first reveals Himself and He is 100% sovereign over all creation, which includes both you and I. The Bible also teaches human responsibility; so both are therefore true.

Your definition of ‘faith alone’ is no faith alone at all; it is Jesus plus “meritorious works” (i.e. sacraments) which earn Gods saving grace contrary to all biblical teaching. It is why you deny the perseverance of the saints because you believe that performing some externals makes God obligated to impute/impart saving grace. This is why grace is no longer grace, according to the words of Paul as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Since I do not deny that the Bible teaches both doctrines whilest you partially understand one and deny the other altogehter - speaks for itself.

 

[Pitcharan]

Littlesoldier is making the claim that there are some who are beyond salvation because they are too evil.

I believe no one is beyond Gods grace to be saved.

Hi Jericho! sorry for missing this branch of the thread yesterday. Now coming to LittleSoldier’s and your opposie views concerning evil humans, I can only say this much:

• No one can judge accurately. Read the “parable of the weeds”
• But yes, there are some who are damned.
• One example is Judas Iscariot, who was a “son of perdition”.
• Our Lord Himself said that it would have been better for him if he had not been born at all.
• Our Lord also said "judge not and you shall not be judged
• In the parable of the weeds, the angels are told by God the Father, not to remove the weeds as they may end up removing the wheat plants
• They are told to let both weeds and wheat to grow till harvest time (judgement day)
• In judaism too it was believed that judgement (also vengence) was God’s sole prerogative.

What causes damnation is important to know, but not who are the damned.

 

[Pat_De]

What’s funny is the complaint about the colors I use.
I have noted time and again how those who are losing the debate usually - if not always - allude to the colors being annoying.

That being said - your answer is utter hogwash. You’re actually implying that Wisdom might have been written AFTER Hebrews? That’s the most ludicrous claim you’ve made yet.

I was speaking about Hebrews and Maccabees when I issued the challenge: Explain the Heb 11:35 reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

The challenge I issued about Wisdom was in comarison to Ephesians:
**Show me an OT reference to **Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.

As for Mark and Isaiah - READ my definition of “polyvalent references” a few posts back.
It’s getting annoying having to repeat myself . . .

I would not use the term annoying; more of a distraction when trying to respond because you have to search & sort the correct place to divide your quotes. Really just a waste of other peoples time, but you most likely already know or/and have been told that. I would take the high and charitable/considerate road, but that is me. I believe adding color at appropriate times to stress a point is okay, but you take it to a high degree. Your posts & your choice…right.

 

[guanophore]

Elvis; you deny God's total sovereignty in salvation.  The Bible clearly teaches that man would never chase after God unless God first reveals Himself and He is 100% sovereign over all creation, which includes both you and I.  The Bible also teaches human responsibility; so both are therefore true.

This is Catholic. The Latin Rite calls it “prevenient” or "calling.drawing"grace. He has fashioned us with the desire to seek him.

 Your definition of 'faith alone' is no faith alone at all; it is Jesus plus "meritorious works" (i.e. sacraments) which earn Gods saving grace contrary to all biblical teaching.

I am not sure if it will take the thread off topic, but I am really interested in how you are defining “meritorious works” and the source of your definition.

I am also confused why you would equate these with sacraments. Sacraments are a means of God’s grace, and we cannot “merit” His grace.

Imagine that God’s grace pours down like water. In the sacraments, we stand under the waterfall, so that we can be in the best spot to get the grace.

I guess if you consider moving under the waterfall a 'work" then we must place ourselves in a position/disposition to receive His grace. We are certainly rewarded for getting under the spout where the glory comes out! To that extent, it might be considered a meritorious work, or an effort on our part that is met with grace and blessing.

Do you remember the man and the pool who said he wanted to be healed?

It is why you deny the perseverance of the saints because you believe that performing some externals makes God obligated to impute/impart saving grace. This is why grace is no longer grace, according to the words of Paul as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Pat, had you considered finding out what we believe, instead of telling us what you think we believe?

Had you considered that what you may have been taught, or used to believe, is not the same as what the Catholic Church teaches?

Of course we believe in the perseverance of the saints! We just believe it differently.

God is not obligated to do anything for us. He makes provisions by which we can receive his grace, and we can choose to avail ourselves of them.

While you are thinking about the man at the pool who said he wanted to be healed, I want to ask you another similar question. Do you remember the blind man that Jesus put mud on his eyes? Jesus told him to go wash in the pool. Was that a meritorious work?

Upon washing, do you think the man could have an expectation that he should be healed because he washed in the pool, as he was commanded? Was Jesus obligated to heal him?

Since I do not deny that the Bible teaches both doctrines whilest you partially understand one and deny the other altogehter - speaks for itself.

what seems to speak is your level of hostility

 

[Pat_De]

Please excuse me; I came into this discussion rather late. Are you referring to examples as described in the Bible only or examples on which the Bible is silent? If you’re referring to all examples you really don’t know.

There is no predestination as God gave us free will. There is a big difference in knowing what will happen and in causing what will happen. I don’t see predestination ALL OVER the NT and I don’t feel that I gravely err on the “very obvious” teaching of the NT. If it’s very obvious, why doesn’t everyone see it?

Possibly because it isn’t there?

When you begin to read the bible (NT) and pat attention, then you will see predestination or election all over.

If you like short reads and to the point and accurate, then this LINK will help you in you understanding.

May He bless you in the reading and comprehension of His word.

 

[Pat_De]

I agree.

Back to the OP:

In the case of OSAS I’ve asked the following question before and always received the answer “yes”:

Suppose a man sinned rather horribly and then one day asked for Jesus to come into his life. He felt the presence of Jesus and fell to his knees in supplication and joy. He accepted Christ as his Savior and began to live a life of good.

Ten years go by. The man has reverted back to his life of horrible sin. He has been sinning for over seven years now; horrible awful sins. While in the midst of one of his sins he is killed. Does he goes to heaven?

Your thoughts?

If he was a Christian, then yes if he was not then no…not a difficult question. The question should be was this person a Christian?

 

[Pat_De]

Unfortunately Pat and others are having a rather difficult time understanding the anthropomorphic language of Scripture - especially when it comes to the concept of eternity.

"God predestines" usually means “God knows”. Since heaven is out of time, he doesn’t know “beforehand” - he KNOWS - period. That is what most of predestination means, but Calvin not only misunderstood this - he HAD to reject the Catholic position.
Spiritual pride somes at a high cost . . .

LOL

 

[guanophore]

"Pat De:

“Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”

I think it is difficult to have this discussion because we have different concepts of salvation.

In this context, I think it is more appropriate to say taht we move in and out of a state of grace with God. When I was among my separated brethren, this was called “right relationship” with God.

The Apostles taught that it was possible to be reconciled to God, enter a right relationship with Him, then damage or sever that relationship.

Sin separates the non-Christian from God; the Christian has had all of their sins nailed to the cross as the Bible teaches.

This might be one of the most salient differences between the Apostolic Teaching and Reformed Theology. The Apostles taught that the nature of sin does not change “this side of the cross”, and that sin continues to separate us from God. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, but not everyone receives the gift of redemption that He purchased for us. Some, after accepting it, and becoming partakers of His divine nature, later turn from Him, severing themselves from His covering grace.

Current sin will lead the Christian astray and out of His grace and we will miss blessing

We are in agreement on this point. Except that Catholics believe that without His grace, there is no salvation, and if one dies in such a state of sin, separated and astray from Him, the eternal penalty of death will be paid.

and the Good Shepherd will bring back that sheep that strays too far.  If you are a parent, then you should understated the concept.

Yes, it is much like parenting. As you know, however, love is not equivalent to salvation. A parent can continue to love a child who will choose to go astray to their own destruction. What would have happened to the prodigal if he had not chosen to return? He would still have been his father’s son, but what benefit is that if he dies in a pigstye, separated from his inheritance?

 

[Pat_De]

Yes, God does use godly men and women. He promised the Holy Spirit would lead aand guide His Church. Do you really think no one read the bible or learned those same teaching written down from the men who the Holy Spirit inspired to speak them until Calvin and Luther? Who disagree with each other? Did the Holy Spirit guide them to separate truths?

Do you really think I am going to consider you a scholar on the historical matters of this or deny the clear teaching of Scripture for your sake? The church defined in the bible is not the church defined by the catechism of your church. The Holy Spirit leads His church as individuals that collectively make up His church. All you have to do is look at how the Bible defines the church and compare it to how the catechism defines the church and you will not find it synonymous.

 

[guanophore]

 If you do not see predestination ALL OVER the NT, then you gravely error on the very obvious teaching of the NT.  There is not one example of a person having, then lost salvation.

I wonder about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts.

however, I think it is a poor linguistic construction. One cannot “lose” what one does not yet posess. There are some aspects of salvation that are complete, some that are in process, and some that are not completed until we leave this life. For that reason, to speak of them all as past tense is misleading, or to say that one “loses” that which has not yet been attained is also misleading.

Phil.3
[10] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
[11] that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
[12] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
[13] Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
[14] I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[15] Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you.
[16] Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Clearly the Apostle here speaks of his resurrection in a conditional manner (“if possible”)

He knows that he has not yet obtained it, but presses on. He has not attained, but strives forward, pressing on. This is a good description of the perseverance of a saint.

He could be separated from His heavenly inheritance, and that might be considered “losing salvation”, but since it has not yet been attained, it can’t really be lost. It might be more appropriate to say that he might fail to be united to the treasure that is kept for him in heaven.

Denying the truth in the correct understanding of the perseverance of the saints is an issue with those that are chuck full of pride because in essence they are saying they have merit before God, that God owes them based on some act or performance when it comes to salvation; it is the person that knows it is all of God that gives up on "self'.  Why do you think Jesus said "deny yourself",,,& follow Me?

You surely can see the difference here

I am sure that there are some who have pride and are focused on earning their way to heaven. However, this is not necessarily the cause for rejecting the Calvanistic idea of perseverance.

Even a persons actions with regard to salvation are based upon grace, so there is no room for boasting. “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” is followed immediately by “for God is at work in you…”

We are in agreement, though that we must deny ourselves and follow him. Most of us find this quite a bit of “work”.

 

[guanophore]

If a person says Hebrews 6 is a Christian and they deny the faith, then the rest of the passage says there no longer remains a way of salvation - that is it you are cooked - pun intended.

Do you mean to say thatk, if the person described in Heb. 6 is a Christian?

It would mean that once you were saved, then you turned away and are now lost, then there is no coming back. I have heard this referred to as once your lost after being saved, then you are lost forever.

I can see how one could read it this way, but that is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. One is only permanently lost if one fails to come to repentance. Christ does not cease to be the redemption for such people. There is always hope that someone who has rejected him might come to their senses, and return.

It is not taught in Scripture and no one, including the saved can snatch oneself out of the hand of God;

No, but we can jump out.

He will treat you as He did Jonah as he tried to run from God and man was he chastened by god, you an run but you can't hide and all children do this to their father from time to time and the fathers do discipline their children to bring them back in line and likewise God does the same with His children just as God teaches in His Word.

He will, but some of them will not come back. Look at the rich young ruler that walked away. Jesus was sad, because looking upon him, He loved him. Yet, in His love, He allows us to walk away.

So you may be a Christian and not believe in the once God has you that is it camp, but you will believe it and be thankful if you are a Christian. If you are not a Christian, then pray for forgiveness and ask God to remove the blindness.

I had a really hard time understanding this one. Is English not your first language?

   If you say it is a non-Christian, which it is, then the passage speaks of an apostate which is a person that has all the knowledge and participated with the life of believers, and never in their heart truly believed and the greatest example is Judas Iscariot.

This is an erronoeous interpretation because of the term “apostate”. Certainly there are persons in the congregation that fit your description here, but they are not apostates. They are those who are choked out by the weeds or wither under persecution. An Apostate is one who has fallen away. One cannot fall away from that to which they were never clinging.

 Can someone argue that He was once saved , then lost?

I would not, but that is because I dont’ believe our salvation is completed in this life, and I follow the Apostle Paul, who does not presume that he has already attained it.

 

[guanophore]

Rather than looking at what men said of Calvin, perhaps learning more about what achieved by God’s grace and how he taught Scripture and how God used that faithfulness and obedience to His glory by comparing what Calvin said against what the Bible teaches.

This will not be possible, Pat, because the Bible does not “teach”. People teach. when people read the bible and draw conclusions, they are actually acting as their own teacher. Most of them believe they are taught by the HS.

All of us interpret the Scripture differently based upon our education and experiences (or lack thereof). We approach it with preconceived notions.

That is a shame and a death wish since what Calvin taught God used to lift many souls. Calvin did not invent anything he was just a brilliant expositor of Scripture because he was gifted by God and in his obedience to the Word;

Calvin invented an entire doctrine of the faith, writing volumes to contain his inventions. He was quite prolific and thorough. I am sure that his writings have lifted many souls, as I am one of them. I learned a lot, I can tell you! God is able to write straight with crooked lines.

I am also sure that he was very sincere in his efforts, and did strive to obey the Word as best he understood it.

God used him in a mighty way to articulate and rightly divide the Word of Truth just as he did Luther and others.

Well, certainly a great deal of dividing has resulted from their work.

To reject what Calvin brilliantly articulated is to reject the direct teaching of God which is a rejection of the Word of God, which is why I state it is a death wish,

You seem quite passionate about your faith, and clearly you believe there is no distincton between the ideas of Calvin, and the Word of God. I can understand why you would conclude that rejecting it is a death wish.

but you can only study what Calvin taught and thoroughly compare it to the Bible and drawl your own conclusion and perhaps you have done that???

yes. I do not consider Calvin’s writings to be equivalent with the Word of God, so by rejecting them, I do not have a death wish.

 

[guanophore]

I know that Judas submitted to Satan’s will, much like we do, even after being saved

No, it is not like what happens to us. Once we are sealed, Satan can no longer “enter into” us the way he did with Judas. We may fall into temptation, but where the HS is dwelling, satan cannot enter in that way.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus never referred to Macabees because it was not considered scripture by the Jews. When eternity is referenced in the NT it is clear there are only two destinations after death. No middle ground. 2 Chor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

It is true that there were various sects of Jews that accepted different groups of Scriptures. Jesus and the Apostles used the Alexandrian Septuagint, as evidence by their expressions (quotes).

If Jesus did not consider Macabees inspired by God, then it seems unlikely that He would have participated in, and supported the feast that was initiated at that time, described in the book. Since He journeyed to the TEmple for the feast, and never preached against it while he was there, He was endorsing the validity of it. I think this is one of the strongest supports of the Deuterocanonical books.

On the contrary, it is clear that there are a number of states after death. I will agree that our end is one or the other, but the righteous Jews who were held in what they called “Abrahams Bosom” were in either heaven or hell. Same for those in “prison” to whom Christ preached after His death. These represent some other state besides heaven and hell.