“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[guanophore]

As I said Jesus never quoted or mentioned those books. Also there is no NT reference to them either while the NT is replete with quotes from all the other OT books. Why would that be?

Your lack of information, perhaps?

It dosen’t matter who uses them it as you say “Protestants chose to follow the Jewish OT canon”. I trust the Holy Spirit in inspiring the Jews as to which books He wanted in the bible.

It is amazing that you would have more confidence in a group of men who rejected Christ than you would the group to whom He gave His HS, and promied them that He would guide them into all truth.

 

[Pitcharan]

Excuse me sir but Judas allowed Satan to enter him not God. And the act of calvary would have happened with or without the betrayal of Judas. I have a phrase that I teach in my Orthodox Church and it is this. The only power the devil has is the power you give him. …!

I can cite 3 examples which contradict the favourite phrase you teach:

• In the book of Job we learn that God allows Satan to tempt and torment Job.
• Jesus was also subject to this kind of ordeal by God. (Matt 4 & Mk 1)
• Jesus told Peter, that Satan had sought God’s permission to sift Peter like wheat.(Lk22:31)

 

[guanophore]

Any specific scripture, where Jesus quoted from these six"books?"

Here is a list of some of the references.

Lack of quotes contained in the NT, do not necessarily indicate lack of inspiration. Books not quoted in the NT are also considered expired. So are books not quoted by Christ in the NT.

it is a factor, but not the only one.

 

[MartinJordan]

I can cite 3 examples which contradict the favourite phrase you teach:

• In the book of Job we learn that God allows Satan to tempt and torment Job.
• Jesus was also subject to this kind of ordeal by God. (Matt 4 & Mk 1)
• Jesus told Peter, that Satan had sought God’s permission to sift Peter like wheat.(Lk22:31)

Just a technicality;Satan sought God’s permission to sift not only Peter but the rest of the Apostles - (the you in Luke 22:31 is plural)

 

[Pitcharan]

Just a technicality;Satan sought God’s permission to sift not only Peter but the rest of the Apostles - (the you in Luke 22:31 is plural)

Thank you Martin. There would have been better understanding and clarity, if only english language was as versatile and rich as Hebrew, Armaic or Urdu.

 

[DavidKays]

I can cite 3 examples which contradict the favourite phrase you teach:

• In the book of Job we learn that God allows Satan to tempt and torment Job.
• Jesus was also subject to this kind of ordeal by God. (Matt 4 & Mk 1)
• Jesus told Peter, that Satan had sought God’s permission to sift Peter like wheat.(Lk22:31)

I know what you mean Pitcharan and thank you for bringing it up however you misunderstand what my points refer to. It is one thing to be attacked by the devil and it is another to be tempted. When I use that phrase which is beginning to be more popular I am referring to the opportunities when the devil tempts you. If you give into the temptation then you have entered into his power. Did you understand now what I mean. As long as you resist the temptation then you are not into his power. Do you get it? Your references even though they represent certain activities of the devil really do not contradict my phrase but actually supports it. Let me explain. When the devil was given permission to go beyond his usual temptations in a person for instance in this person Job, we see that Job in all of this does not sin. Therefore Job has resisted all the attempts of the evil one for Job to blaspheme God and therefore Job is not in his power. If Job had sinned yes he will be in the devil’s power. For you to give permission to be in the devil’s power you must then with the temptation fall into sin. That is how the phrase makes sense. The only power the devil has is the power you give him. That is the only way the devil has got you is when you fall into sin by giving into the temptation. Do you understand now! Job resisted the devil par excellence! Job was never in the devil’s power because he did not sin. The devil’s power can also be translated been his slave. You like to sin then you become his slave. Same thing. That is what I am teaching when I use this phrase. Jesus also resisted all attempts from the devil. Therefore He is not in his power for Jesus did not sin. However in Peter’s case we see an exception. The devil got to Peter when Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Peter sinned yet when Peter saw the face of Jesus immediately after his denial he remembered the words of Jesus when Jesus warned him he will deny 3X that he ever knew Him. After the eye contact Peter began to weep and he wept bitterly. The Lord Jesus forgave him immediately. Whatever the devil did to Peter has now been defeated. Peter did sin but he quickly recognised his failure and the devil lost whatever gain he got when Peter denied His Lord. Same thing with St.Maria Faustina when she wrote the Diary the devil screamed in front of her " we are losing everything! she is writing everything! " and at another time he said to her, " Oh! if I only had power over you! ". What is the power the devil is referring to? Your willingness to fall when you are tempted! As long as you resist his temptations you will never be in his power. So you have the capacity within yourself to say no to the devil. And you can say yes. Say no and you are not in his power. Say yes and you are in his power. Look at Eve. She said yes and look what happened. So yes your verses from the Bible are great choices but you had misunderstand the points that I was addressing. I hope I have clarified them up and if not please let me know and I will try again. Good to hear from you! God Bless!

 

[Pitcharan]

… For you to give permission to be in the devil’s power you must then with the temptation fall into sin. That is how the phrase makes sense. … I hope I have clarified them up and if not please let me know and I will try again. Good to hear from you! God Bless!

Thank you David for the clarification. Yes I agree and stand corrected.

Here is the proof of clarity

***What you meant was empowering the Devil by our succumbing to his seduction.

What I understood was permitting Devil to tempt a human being.***

 

[DavidKays]

Yeah you got it now. It is good to ask questions for this always determines what the truth may be. It is when we stop asking we get into trouble. God Bless!

 

[elvisman]

Elvis; you deny God’s total sovereignty in salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that man would never chase after God unless God first reveals Himself and He is 100% sovereign over all creation, which includes both you and I. The Bible also teaches human responsibility; so both are therefore true.

Your definition of ‘faith alone’ is no faith alone at all; it is Jesus plus “meritorious works” (i.e. sacraments) which earn Gods saving grace contrary to all biblical teaching. It is why you deny the perseverance of the saints because you believe that performing some externals makes God obligated to impute/impart saving grace. This is why grace is no longer grace, according to the words of Paul as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Since I do not deny that the Bible teaches both doctrines whilest you partially understand one and deny the other altogehter - speaks for itself.

I will say this one last time because I grow weary of repeating myself.
**You - and other adherents to Calvinism simply do not understand what it means to be reborn (initial salvation) vs final salvation or Redemption vs final salvation. You think that because God’s grace you are saved forever when you are reborn and can never fall away. You therefore deny the very Scriptures that you claim to be our final Authority. **

**God’s grace gives us the MEANS to believe and to endure in faith. However - we must COOPERATE with his grace in order to faithfully endure.
**
**Paul tells us in Rom. 8:28, **"We know that in everything God works for good with (sunergei eis agathon) those who love him, who are called according to his purpose."
This illustrates a COOPERATION with God **- a synergism between the will of God and the will of man.

In 2 Corinthians 6:1, he says, "Working together with (sunergountes) him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain" .
Again, we see the will of God working together with the will of man.**

The following passages speak to those who were INITIALLY saved (they had a full, experiential knowledge of God) and fell away. They speak to the importance of faithful endurance:
******Matt. ****10:22, **Matt. **7:19-23, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Romans 11:22, ****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Pet. 2:20-22, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****1 John 3:10, ****1 John 5:13, ********1 John 2:24, **1 Tim. 4:1,

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Finally, Rev. 3:5 says in no uncertain terms:
"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."
This is about people who were initially saved and LOST it. You cannot blot out a name was never there in the FIRST place.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Your lack of information, perhaps?

It is amazing that you would have more confidence in a group of men who rejected Christ than you would the group to whom He gave His HS, and promied them that He would guide them into all truth.

No. Not a lack of information. Listen, before we pick these apart one by one, do you personally support this list and can say you support these “references” as actually being references?

 

[guanophore]

No. Not a lack of information. Listen, before we pick these apart one by one, do you personally support this list and can say you support these “references” as actually being references?

It is as good a place to start as any. What, in your opinion, constitutes a “reference”?

I will personally support the list for the sake of discussion.

If you did not read my post above, I will also start by stipulating that I think the OSAS position can be well defended by Scripture. So, “let’s roll”?

 

[Rightlydivide]

It is as good a place to start as any. What, in your opinion, constitutes a “reference”?

I will personally support the list for the sake of discussion.

If you did not read my post above, I will also start by stipulating that I think the OSAS position can be well defended by Scripture. So, “let’s roll”?

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Wisdom 11:5-7

For by the things through which their foes were punished they in their need were benefited.
Instead of a spring, when the perennial river was troubled with impure blood
as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants, You gave them abundant water in an unhoped-for way,

Do you believe in this context it is a prophecy? Why or why not?

Thanks

 

[elvisman]

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Wisdom 11:5-7

Do you believe in this context it is a prophecy? Why or why not?

Thanks

It’s been about a week now since Iissued my Scriptural challenge to you - which you have dodged relentlessly:

---

Show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.
AND
Explain the Heb 11:35 reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

---

Can you do this or do you still refuse?

 

[Pat_De]

Hi! I must say this onced saved always saved is a very interesting topic. Personally I do not think this way. It seems to me more of a protestant ideal because they do bring up the topic " are you saved? “. I do not see salvation as being talked about here. Salvation is not a moment decision but a ongoing process. If I was asked that question by a protestant " are you saved?”, I will answer him by saying " I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." In the movie " War and Peace " the Russian general told his officer not to lose hope just because we will lose this battle. We may lose this battle but there will be others and we may win them. In the final analysis it is the final battle that really matters." This is the real truth for our Faith. Not so all those battles in between our birth to death but the final battle. This is when it really matters. Those who are dying can relate to this. This is why the Lord Jesus started the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy. He knew that the final battle is the most important one. And many do not prepare themselves for their final moments. God has given us a great tool so that we can prepare ourselves for that final battle and not only ourselves but by praying the Chaplet for others especially the dying we can help them also to prepare for that final moment. I do not consider " onced saved " really important to me. What is important for me is my relationship with God. Meaning this that I do not longer fear Him but I now love Him. You want this more than anything else in the world. To love God. Fall in love with Him. Argue with Him! Praise Him! Tell Him off just like Job! Question Him! Actually He likes that the most. When you question Him. I do not mean about knowledge but to question His motives. Thank Him! Understand Him! Ask Him why! Throw your fist at Him if He seems He is not listening! Understand His motives! He doesn’t mind you telling Him off. At least you are being honest with Him. Just as a wife can show her feelings to her husband so the Lord is willing to understand you. Do not be scared to reveal your true feelings. He wants the truth from you! Be like Job and do not hide your feelings. When the PM of Italy was assasinated in the 1960’s after many attempts from the Pope to intercede for him failed the PM was buried at a funeral with the Holy Father presiding. In astonishment the Pope chastise God in front of millions of viewers. He got after God. The result of this from the Pope began a change of the Red Brigade that killed the PM. Within a year the band of people disbanded and they all confessed their wrong doing. Sometimes getting after God can do alot of good. Remind Him of His duty. Tell Him about how much you love Him! Tell Him how much you are grateful! Tell Him everything! He is your husband! Argue with Him just like any wife who argues with her husband and man you are going to see how much this guy ( I mean God ) loves you! He ain’t going to give you up. You might want to give Him up but not so He will towards you. Listen! You want the best husband in the world then look to God. You can fall in love with Him and as the scriptures says " Seek first the kingdom of God ( fall in love with Him first ) and His righteousness and all these other things will be yours as well! God Bless!

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or just some of them? When was this accomplished? What does being saved mean; what are you saved from? So if Jesus paid for all of your sins and you are saved from the penalty of sin, then when is a person actually saved?

There is only one true biblical answer to the question; if you believe that Jesus paid for all of your sins, then the moment those sins were forgiven is the moment one first truly believes (this leaves out the other topic of predestination). If you believe that Jesus only paid for part of your sins, then you blaspheme the work and the name of Jesus according to Scripture.

We still are left with saved, being saved and will be saved; the resolution is rather simple because we still must live and battle the flesh in this life as Christians are aliens in this world so we are continually battling the new creation against the old sinful flesh, but being conformed (sanctified) to the image of Christ and in the end when we shed our sinful nature completely we will then be fully redeemed because when we see Him as He is we will be like Him.

Another way to think of it is we, as humans, are both mortal and immortal; mortal in this life where we fight the battle of the flesh against the spirit and immortal when we die and are present with the Lord. The battle has already been one by Jesus Christ, we are in Him and as such we are new creations with old fleshy bodies and the battle continues, but He who is in the Christian is stronger and greater, than the one who battles the Christian. The real Christian will persevere for this very reason; the ones who are not real will not persevere because they have no supernatural power within themselves.

 

[Pat_De]

if being a sinner keeps us out of heaven, few of us are going to make.

So thanks be it to Jesus Who died so that sin may be forgiven. over and over and over again.

There is no end to this mercy as long as we remain faithful in our belief.

unless

you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit

Scripture says it is the one unforgivable sin.

Luke 13:23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The Lord’s answer is yes!!! Only a few but not because of what you stated.

 

[elvisman]

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or just some of them? When was this accomplished? What does being saved mean; what are you saved from? So if Jesus paid for all of your sins and you are saved from the penalty of sin, then when is a person actually saved?

There is only one true biblical answer to the question; if you believe that Jesus paid for all of your sins, then the moment those sins were forgiven is the moment one first truly believes (this leaves out the other topic of predestination). If you believe that Jesus only paid for part of your sins, then you blaspheme the work and the name of Jesus according to Scripture.

We still are left with saved, being saved and will be saved; the resolution is rather simple because we still must live and battle the flesh in this life as Christians are aliens in this world so we are continually battling the new creation against the old sinful flesh, but being conformed (sanctified) to the image of Christ and in the end when we shed our sinful nature completely we will then be fully redeemed because when we see Him as He is we will be like Him.

Another way to think of it is we, as humans, are both mortal and immortal; mortal in this life where we fight the battle of the flesh against the spirit and immortal when we die and are present with the Lord. The battle has already been one by Jesus Christ, we are in Him and as such we are new creations with old fleshy bodies and the battle continues, but He who is in the Christian is stronger and greater, than the one who battles the Christian. The real Christian will persevere for this very reason; the ones who are not real will not persevere because they have no supernatural power within themselves.

Sorry Pat, but you are still having difficulties differentiating REDEMPTION from SALVATION.
**The entire world - EVERYBODY has been redeemed (paid for/tetelestai) by the work of Christ on the cross. **

On the other hand - only those who have accepted God’s grace and have cooperated with it by remaining faithful to the end will be SAVED (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13).

As for your definition of "Real Christians" - you’re wrong again. The Bible says over and over again that you CAN fall away after having had not simply a knowledge (gnosis) of Christ - but a FULL, correct and experiential knowledge (epignosis) of him.

**You cannot simply toss out the verses that disagree with your position (**Matt. 7:21, ****Matt. 24:13, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****1 John 5:13, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-22, ****Romans 11:20-22, Revelation 3:5).

 

[Pat_De]

Does anyone who believes in OSAS unconditionally care to challenge Galatians 5:16-21?
God Bless! Jerry Kelso

OSAS is really the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the question is where does this doctrine originate or is it written in the bible?

Romans 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You see from Scripture; it is God who freely gives a saint perseverance. A Creator creates for his own good pleasure and for His own good use and this is no different with man; we are created for His pleasure to display His glory, His wrath, His justice, His mercies, patience His love …His His His His and more His. HE is always in control and He is everywhere and can do as He wishes and does with His creation; some vessels for destruction and some for mercy as He tells Moses i will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

As far as Galatians Paul is comparing those led by the Spirit (Christians) to those not led by the Spirit (non-Christians). This is common in Pauls’s writings.

 

[elvisman]

OSAS is really the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the question is where does this doctrine originate or is it written in the bible

**Are you ever going to respond to my post #389?

 

[Rightlydivide]

It’s been about a week now since Iissued my Scriptural challenge to you - which you have dodged relentlessly:

---

Show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.
AND
**Explain the Heb 11:35 **reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

---

Can you do this or do you still refuse?

I answered the one about Hebrews, let me go back and look if I answered the other one

 

[elvisman]

I answered the one about Hebrews, let me go back and look if I answered the other one

I don’t remember you ever answering the Hebrews/Maccabees reference. I remember you dancing around the issue but not answering it.
Can you give me the post# where you explained that it was a reference to a non-Deuterocanonical book?