“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[guanophore]

How Calvin of you;

Calvin did not jettison ALL of the Apostolic Teaching.

Just enough to create “a different gospel”.

  How very traditional of you!!  Unfortunately the church provides no examples nor does the Catholic church.  If this was such an important doctrine, then it must be plastered all over Scripture and tradition, but it is not.  Why? I wonder?

This is actually what Heb. 6 is about, those who recieved the gospel, were cleansed by God, then spurned Him. Their fate is like that of Ananias and Sapphira.

 No, that is a Catholic teaching; the apostles taught that when one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit (apart from water), this is the moment one is saved from the due penalty of sin.

The Apostles never separated the HS from the Water to which Christ joined it. This separation came by way of those who abandoned the Apsotolic faith centuries later. In the Scripture, one will never find the phrase “baptism apart from water”.

You will have to confer with your mortal sin believing friends on that one.

Mortal sins are covered by His blood sacrifice. Do you not believe in mortal sins either?

You better look at the rhetoric question in Mark's version of the Parable of the Seeds; those questions Jesus asks are for you.  Only one of the soils or hearts was prepared by God and is supernatural soil without imperfections and it is the only heart that both produces fruit and perseveres, none of the others do because none of the others were or ever were Christians.  A very simple Parable to understand, but read what Jesus said about it in Mark 4, especially pay attention to Mark 4:13.

So, how is it the word of God sprouted and grew in the other two cases? Can you explain what it was that sprouted and grew? How is it that the Word of God can sprout and grow when one is not a Christian?

 

[elvisman]

You will know one day who understood and who did not.

I know now.
You know why? Because I listened to the "Pillar and Foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) - Christ’s only Church. The same Church he identified his very self with in Acts 9:4-5.

You, on the 0ther hand, chose to listen to flawed, sinful men and follow the legacy of constantly splintering, constantly changing “truths” . . .

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat De
You will know one day who understood and who did not.

I know now.
You know why? Because I listened to the "Pillar and Foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) - Christ’s only Church. The same Church he identified his very self with in Acts 9:4-5.

You, on the 0ther hand, chose to listen to flawed, sinful men and follow the legacy of constantly splintering, constantly changing “truths” . . .

Sad,but very true elvisman. The old cliche: The truth hurts the most where it counts.

 

[1beleevr]

Do you honestly believe God had to ask Satan permission for what happened to Job??? That is not only ludicrous - it’s* heresy*!

As for what God ordains or "preordains" - that is up to him. This nonsense that he causes some to sin is simply ignorance on your part. You are trying to apply your limited understanding of linguistics and modern culture on anthropomorphistic language. * Sorry *about the big word - I know I promised you I’d try to keep those down to 3 syllables . . .

As for the Al Gore reference - I was trying to "dumb-down" a point so that you could understand. You seem to have a difficult time with linguistics ans multi-syllabic words . . .

Finally - your comment about the colors I use once again proves my point that when somebody is losing the debate and running out of things to say - they alwa**ys refer to my use of colors . . .

Boy, it’s so true; Jericho777 has you pegged! I didn’t say that God had to ask permission from Satan, it’s the other way around! And I think that you "dumbed down the point, using Al Gore for your own understanding! I know the references to Judas have taken us a bit off topic, but people tend to use Judas(usually catholics) when citing incidences of falling away I know that you don’t believe that Judas was OSAS, but do you believe Jesus’s words of John 6:70-71? "Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?“71 He was talking about Judas, Son of Simon Iscariot. For Judas, even though he was one of the twelve disciples, he was going to betray Him.” In some Bibles, Jesus calls Judas, a “son of perdition,” a word meaning,"loss of one’s soul, and the joys of Heaven. So, do you not believe that Jesus knew that Judas was dirty? That he had a dark heart? And what if Jesus had “outed”(exposed) Judas too soon? How would that have changed the crucifixion scenario? Would they need a different betrayer?Yes, Judas went out with the other eleven, but was he really “saved?” Why would Jesus call him a devil? What was the crime/sin which supposedly kept him from glory? Was it greed, betrayal, or perhaps accessoty to murder? Was he beyond salvation and or redemption(Matthew 19:26) It may have even been his suicide. People probably discount the return of the silver, and his statement that he had betrayed innocent blood, but God knows what happened! And I was not malicious about your colors; it is a cute way to shout! Nor, was I losing, or have I lost the argument!

 

[1beleevr]

Your entire answer is based on your failure to understand - even the slightest bit - what eternity means. BUT, it brings up an interesting, if not hypocritical point on your part and the part of most Protestants. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS said that we re-poresent Christ in the Mass as the eternal Sacrifice before the Father (1 Pet. 1:19-20, Rev. 13:8) to the rejection of most Protestants. Now - you’re using that same argument (and verse) to debunk what Scripture itself says about the blotting out of names in the Book of Life…

As I already showed you, Rom. 8:28 and 2 Cor. 6:1 BOTH speak of working WITH God (cooperating) - not being sentenced to heaven against our will.,

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AND - as I stated before (and you pridefully reject),** Rev. 3:5** says plainly that he will not blot out names in the Book of Life those who overcome - who endure. Your failure to understand that you cannot blot out a name was never there in the FIRST place is your folly.**

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The scriptures you mentioned(1Peter 1:19-20, Rev 13:8), do not talk bout “eternal sacrifice,” by Christ before the Father This would trump Hebrews 10: 10-14, which says that He made ONE sacrifice for all time!!! Hebrews 10:11 sounds more like what cathoics do at mass!

 

[1beleevr]

That’s what I thought - and that’s why I told MariaG:
He’ll simply formulate a new way of dancing around the issue . . .

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To your credit - some people simply run and hide. At least you were crafty enough to formulate up this line of "non-answer" answers.
Ignorance must really be bliss . . .

So, is ignorance blis for you, as well?

 

[1beleevr]

Excuse me sir but Judas allowed Satan to enter him not God. And the act of calvary would have happened with or without the betrayal of Judas. I have a phrase that I teach in my Orthodox Church and it is this. The only power the devil has is the power you give him. Whether Judas as you say was saved from the beginning I really do not know. Salvation is not only occurring throughout your life but in the end what really matters is your relationship before the Lord before you died. To get Jesus to Calvary. It is interesting how protestants and catholics debate about this. How about an Orthodox perspective. From the Church Fathers of the Eastern Church specificaly St.John Chrysostom we see this. Instead of looking at the sinfulness of men this Church Father saw the crucification in this manner. The crucifixation was not so much to show the sinfulness of men and the love of God but to reveal or expose the Evil One. Why did the devil attack Jesus? Why did the devil through Judas had over Jesus to the Pharisees? The Saint said the attack from the devil were to serve no purpose because he the devil will have been defeated. The only pleasure the devil had may be was to see Jesus suffer. But the crucifixation was necessary says the saint because it revealed or precisely exposed the Evil One. Because evil can disguise itself as good it was necessary for God to sacrifice His Son to show us this. Look at Judas says the saint. He was passionate at first yet all the while evil thoughts creeped into his soul. He looked pretty good and later when evil thoughts began to seeped in he decided to destroy Jesus. This is why God allowed His Son to die. To show how evil can operate in the world. There is alot more from this saint and please take the time to read him. God Bless!

In John 6:70, Jesus states," Have I not chosen the twelve of you, and one is a devil?" who was He talking about? Jesus, as God, knew that Judas’s heart was dirty, and that it would be easier for Satan to enter him, to complete the betrayal! I know that Calvary would have happened without Judas; so why have him then? Remember Job; a faithful servant, whom Satan asked God if he could torment? Satan cannot do anything without God knowing it! Thanks for the suggestion to read, perhaps you too should heed your own advice! In His service, Amen!

 

[elvisman]

The scriptures you mentioned(1Peter 1:19-20, Rev 13:8), do not talk bout “eternal sacrifice,” by Christ before the Father This would trump Hebrews 10: 10-14, which says that He made ONE sacrifice for all time!!! Hebrews 10:11 sounds more like what cathoics do at mass!

They have everything to do with Christ’s eternal sacrifice.
Again – you fail to understand even an inkling of the concept of the reality of ETERNITY of Heaven. In Heaven, there is no past or future – there is only the eternal now (2 Pet. 3:8, Rev 21:23). Jesus is present in Heaven – in ETERNITY – as a slain Lamb.

**Your frustration with the Catholic position is that you just don’t see the reality of the Scriptures. **
In short - you just don’t get it . . .

1 Pet. 1:19-20
***“…but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb. ***
He was known before the foundation of the world but revealed in the final time for you, who through him believe in God who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”

Rev. 5:6
“Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.”

Rev. 13:8
“All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.”

 

[elvisman]

So, is ignorance blis for you, as well?

**I might be - if I were ignorant. Too bad for you - I’m not.

**Unlike you and some others - I don’t invent the things I am saying. I’m simply parroting the same teachings of the Church for 2000 years.

You (and others) have chosen to follow in the footsteps of your original rebellious, prideful Protestant Fathers by your constant splintering, bickering sects . . .

You can’t have 30,000 different versions of "truth" - there is only ONE (1 Tim. 3:15).
Sorry, pal.

 

[MariaG]

Oh no. It was not post-Christ, there is no proof of your view. My stance has more patristic support and naturally biblical support.

What do you believe my position to be before you assert that it is wrong? If you are basing that upon Elvisman’s incorrect view of my position, it is understandable. I have never said a council set the OT canon.
Thank you

As your post that I originally quoted states, you seem to believe the Jewish canon was set before Christ.

I then stated the two views that are most common, and why they are wrong, but am still interested in when you believe the canon was set and the support for your view.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[Pat_De]

The concept of perseversance as you use it originated with John Calvin during the Reformation, 1600 years after the Apostles taught a different concept of perseversance.

I can see, though where you find scriptural support for the Calvanistic view. It is not the first time that the Holy Scriptures have been twisted to support something that theApsotles did not believe or teach. It has been going on since the Scriptures were penned.

It is easy to find for good reason and is nothing new like that of many doctrines taught by other churches.

It is interesting that you would choose this verse to post, since Calvin, in the course of inventing his doctrines, departed from the unity of mind, accord, and voice that existed in the Apostolic Succession.

Or the Catholic church strayed like Israel did and broke any “so-called” unity that was remotely visible; the true unity has yet to be revealed. The reason for that verse is because it is crystal clear as to the teaching of the perseverance of the saints and from Whom it comes from. Catholics have a distorted view on unity due to a lack of understanding what kind of unity the Bible generally speaks in terms of, which is not the visible, but the invisible that Jesus so clearly talks about in John 17. Visible unity is always spoken in the local sense and never a national sense like that of Israel.

We have no disagreement with this. Our disagreement is with the newly invented MEANING of perseverance defined by Calvin.

What is this newly invented claim you make and cannot support?

He is in control, and from that complete sovereignty, He has decided to give His creatures a choice about whether they want to remain with Him for eternity.

Yes and no; the Bible teaches both and how God works this out is not understandable to the human, which is why we walk by faith - knowing God is Holy , Just and good!!

Why did God love the elect? How many chased after God? How many were righteous? Who removes the veil of blindness? Who is overweight in it all? At the same time who is responsible for rejecting the Son of God and His Gospel? You see it is both.

No, Pat. the letter is written to the Christians.

[1] Paul an apostle – not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead –
[2] and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
[3] Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
[4] who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father;
[5] to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[6] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel –

He is writing to those for whom Jesus gave His life to deliver them from evil. He is writing to those who had received the gospel from him. He includes them with himself, and the brethren who are with him by saying “us”.

It is quite possible for someone to become a Christian and not be led by the Spirit. If this were not true, there would not be so many reference to believers falling prey to the flesh.

2] Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
[3] Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
[4] Did you experience so many things in vain? – if it really is in vain.
[5] Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

He is writing to those who received the Spirit (so they must be Christians). They experienced many things including the supply of the Spirit, miracles, and hearing with faith. These are the marks of believers, not unbelievers.

[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

ARe you suggesting it is possible to “put on Christ” or be baptized into Him if one is not a believer?

Wrong again; the letter is written to a geographical area in which Paul knows it will be read to all sorts of people, which will include the saved, unsaved and yet to be saved. Notice starting in verse 3 Paul makes a general statement as is common to His writings and is stating a fact and magnifying God, a small doxology, if you will and he could also be speaking about those in verse 2 “all the brethren who are with me”. He could have both in mind. Nevertheless verse 22 is the key to the entire section and it also nullifies the tradition of men and shows that salvation comes by faith in Christ alone.

To answer the specific part regarding verses 25 to the end; again without verse 22 the rest has no meaning to those who do not believe based on faith and believe based on law; those will perish. If you read carefully you will see the conditionals and Paul uses these because Paul does not know everyone who will hear or read this letter. Those that have put on Christ and immersed into Christ are Christ’s; given to Him by the Father as John 17 clearly states.

 

[Pat_De]

…So that sin MAY be forgiven…it didn’t mean automatically forgiven. A person has to lay aside their pride and seek that forgiveness. you must be willing to be be naked, in a sense, for no amount of baggage or wealth, or self provided excuses will work. For He knew you sinned before your formation.

The narrow gate (or needle gate)(eye of a needle that a camel goes through) was the only gate by which you could enter into Jerusalem at night. A person had to leave everything outside(by necessity) so as to show that you were not armed or dangerous. They would have had to unload their camel for it to squeeze in. The baggage stayed out until light.

Few are willing to be that unshielded. Few are willing to squeeze through. They will stay outside the gate in the dangerous dark. They want to enter into Jerusalem though a wider gate during the day without all the pressure. Some eventually live though the night, having not been killed or robbed, but many refuse what was offered (the narrow gate) too many times or even one time and they are carted off by Satan.

No one is forced to stay in Jerusalem. You come and go. Through either gates. But one night you turn away from the needle gate because you think you don’t need the safety or want the safety of jerusalem . Satan has promised you pleasure in a far country that you never have to leave and you can do all you want to do. Only you must take a vow never to listen to the holy Spirit again. And a person does it.

I have no idea what point, if any, you are making so I cannot comment other than this comment. Mixing in the Camel gate was interesting though.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jimmy B was here first,But I have a question as I understand most Baptist believe in once saved always save,But what do other dencomination believe

 

[DavidKays]

In John 6:70, Jesus states," Have I not chosen the twelve of you, and one is a devil?" who was He talking about? Jesus, as God, knew that Judas’s heart was dirty, and that it would be easier for Satan to enter him, to complete the betrayal! I know that Calvary would have happened without Judas; so why have him then? Remember Job; a faithful servant, whom Satan asked God if he could torment? Satan cannot do anything without God knowing it! Thanks for the suggestion to read, perhaps you too should heed your own advice! In His service, Amen!

I don’t think you understand sir about the devil. He cannot force anyone to do anything unless you give him permission to do so. Jesus knew Judas 's heart was in the wrong direction. He was not condemning Judas but trying to help him. Jesus never and I repeat never condemns anyone. If He did so then He will be against the reason why He was sent. If you noticed the timing of Jesus words, He said them before the betrayal so that Judas may pay attention to Him. God is interested in the salvation of people so His words were a warning to Judas not a condemnation. Just like Cain when he was tempted to kill his brother the Lord said to Cain " sin is crouching at the door: its desire is for you, but you must master it." I see from these posts that many of you are Protestants. I did not try to say anything to upset you sir but you have a very disinterest in the truth. I know that protestants interpret the scriptures without a guide so please before you tell me what to do try to understand that I do not have a clue what you are talking about. I follow the teachings of my Church who follows the teachings of her Saints. I know the scriptures. I know them because I follow the teachings of my Church. May be by having Judas elected as an Apostle we can see how evil operates in the world. The fact is we have many Judas in the Church today. Sadly they come and sadly they go. Jesus probably payed more attention to Judas because of his condition. Jesus wanted redemption for Judas too. If the devil entered him please understand what that means. That does not mean that the devil entered his body which so many interpret that is. What it means is that whatever thought the devil put in the mind of Judas, he will now carry it out. This is what the phrase " and the devil entered him " means. If the devil put a thought for me to take the 50 dollars in my mother’s purse and I carry it out and take the money then this does not mean that the devil is in me or entered me. It means his thought entered my mind and listening to it I decide to carry it out. Same with Judas. But stealing 50 dollars is not as bad as betraying Jesus. The sin was great. Not greater than God’s Mercy. God can still forgive him. But Judas decided his sin could not be forgiven. The fact is there is no sin God will refuse to forgive. The only sin is the so called unforgivable sin which in reality is not a sin but a complete refusal of God’s Mercy. So it is not God who refuses to forgive it is you who refuses to be forgiven to accept the forgiveness of God. This refusal can also be put in your mind by the devil who will say to you that you are damned, you are worthless, you are no good. By listening again to his lies you will believe him and thus condemn yourself. Try to understand that I am Orthodox and you are Protestant and you have a different way at looking at the scriptures than what the Eastern Church has. Our approach must come in line to what the Church teaches and to what our Saints have said. I am not trying to belittle you. I am trying to give what my Church is saying. God Bless!

 

[DavidKays]

It is what caused the great schism and both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic make similar claims as to succession and who is the head; but so do the JW’s. This shows that the only truth is found in the word of God and not by traditions made by man. It is also why your Bibles are both inspired but contain different books and canons were completely closed at different times.

As far as your spiritual growth; Gods says that comes from reading His word (John 17:17, Psalm 19 and Psalm 119) and as far as your spiritual service and worship, God says it is your body and the way you live the Christian life in obedience or as a slave of Christ as the instruction are written in the Protestant Bible (Romans 12:1).

That is correct for you. You are right about yourself. However what you have said is not correct for me or for the Orthodox or for the Catholics. We will never accept protestant teachings. For us many of your teachings are heresy. In fact many of your teachings we can trace back to the olden days back to the early Church when we had to struggle what you Protestants are struggling now with. We too had our heretical teachings and struggled to correct them. So please anything you guys say I have already rehashed it centuries ago. My Church has already been through them. We in fact look at you as babies of the faith and if you check the history of the Catholic and Orthodox Church you will soon find out that we had gone through the same teachings you guys are going through now yet we had the fortune to have Saints to help us through it and to correct the Church. God Bless!

 

[Pat_De]

I was being facetious. You NEVER answered the challenge. You simply danced around it and changed the subject and I’m not letting you off the hook:

Show me an OT reference to Eph. 6:13-17 (the armour of God) OTHER than the Deuterocanonicals - specifically, Wis. 5:17-20.
AND
Explain the Heb 11:35 reference to the martyrdom of the mother and her sons from 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

The REAL reason you’re dodging this subject is because you have to come to the realization that the Catholic position is correct. By choosing to remain living in falsehood because you refuse to admit the Church is right is the sin of Spritual Pride.

The Catholic position concerning the DC’s is correct just as the Orthodox position concerning the DC’s is correct; only they differ because they are correct in the sight of Catholic and Orthodox men/women even if the books don’t exactly match. The Jews don’t recognize them for good reason and neither do anyone who believes the Word of God contains no error and is preserved from error. We might as well throw in the JW’s; they believe they have it right and the others do not and all three have one thing in common, they have traditions that don’t pass the scrutiny of Scripture and yet all 3 make the claim they do; so who is the right; especially between the Catholics and Orthodox? Perhaps sticking to what is known as Truth, the Holy Scriptures is more than enough revelation to bring people into the Kingdom, which in the end is what counts.

 

[Pat_De]

Pat De: your view is calvanist and is built on God’s full sovereignty even though they only believe God is sovereign in the act of salvation and persevering but not in their daily life. The TULIP has been disproved long time ago.
God has right to show mercy to those who deserve mercy and to those who deserve destruction but it’s because he gave them opportunity to repent. (Romans 9:22).
Galatians 5:19 is talking about non-believers.

It is speaking of the characteristics that identify non-believers; a llitttle different than you statement.

However, vs. 16 is the context of Christians and the the condition is found in the word, if. If the christian walks in the spirit he won’t fulfill the things of the flesh. Obviously, if the christian does the things of the flesh and apostatizes he won’t inherit the kingdom of God.

You do not know what you are reading; Paul states that those who practice, make it a habit, the list are not Christians or “people who will not inherit the Kingdom”, which are non-Christians. There is no indication that there are some who move in and out of such practices, thus implying they were Christians and now they are not, but you will never convince people who believe they must work to earn and to maintain their salvation thus nullifying God’s grace and Jesus finished work on the cross. It is what the Bible describes as “people having a form of godliness but their hearts are from from Him”. What you claim is is akin to saying there will be Christians in hell; that is not even funny and you won’t find a single example in Scripture to support your position beause you are in error.

Ephesians 5:5-8 states that whoremongers, unclean people, coveteous men, and idolaters have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Paul warned the christians not to be decieved for these things bring wrath to sinners and they should not be partakers with them lest they end up with the same judgment.

Now you impose on the text to fit your error; no where does Paul say you will become like them…he just warns them not to “hang around” such people.

These scriptures show their is a possibility for a person to be saved and then lose their salvation. This is a fact that cannot be disputed and this is why all scriptures that appear to prove OSAS unconditionally are taken out of context. God Bless! Jerry kelso

LOL You have much to learn and understand concerning the Word of God and I wish you the best as you travel down the “heavy rapids” you are flowing on.

You cannot disprove that which comes from God and the Truth of TULIP is in the written word; so just because you said it is disproved has no bearing on the Truth. Truth is truth because it is true for you and for me whether we existed or not.

 

[Pat_De]

You think that a link to a site run by a Professor at John Mac Arthur’s Masters Seminary will clarify things??

I have read volumes of MacArthur’s articles and heard tapes of sermions concerning the Catholic Church and he is a bald-face liar.

He and the other Elders could walk circles around you just from memory and heart knowledge of Scripture as he has with Father Manning on Larry King several times.

But you made a blanket and very uncharitable; actually very hateful claim that he is a bold face liar.

I don’t think you will have to worry much about seeing him in the next life unless something radical occurs. Considering that more than half of his congregation have come out of Catholicism; he must have some magic words or voo-doo religion, but the truth of the matter is that he faithfully preaches and actually teaches the word of God very faithfully and is obedient to the truth of what he preaches and God has always used men like him, Calvin and Luther to do great things. So he is either being blessed by God or under the influence of Satan, but given the history of Grace Community Church and its humble beginnings and its Christ centered focus and the millions upon millions of lives that have been changed in a positive way; I’d say God is the influence; what do you think? God has a tendency to bless those that are faithful to reading, studying and being obedient to His word and especially of the ones called by God and the fruit of the ministries bear witness to this truth.

The fact that that man really gets under your skin tells me I need to listen more to him…LOL Who are some other Protestant preacher-teachers that really get under you skin to the point of hatred?

Perhaps I should reread the things “RightlyDivide” has written since you seem to have some serious dislike toward him/her; tells me he/she must be touching on the truth nerve that pains you so much. The Bible, in fact Jesus, said the truth will divide and this thread is certainly proof of that, which is why I am done with it…plus I need rest from my surgery.

 

[Pat_De]

You need to deal with the content of it. Which part in particular do you disagree with?

He won’t answer the question; he’ll just add some distraction because he does not being confronted with having to deal with real truth - so expect nothing.

 

[Pat_De]

Pat, you seem to have a number of misunderstandings about the Catholic faith. The fullest sign of baptism is considered to be immersion. If it is not possible to immerse, then pouring is used. Infants are not baptized by “sprinkling”. Sprinkling is used during the liturgical year to remind us of our baptismal vows.

The concept of “limbo” was a theological speculation, not a doctrine of the faith. The doctrines have not changed, and cannot change. They were delivered “once for all to the saints”. This is called the Deposit of Faith. This same principle, of not being allowed to change the doctrine, is what prevents us from accepting Calvin’s views.

There are several errors here. First of all, God is not bound by the commandments He gives to us. He can save whoever he wants, however He likes. He commanded us to get baptized. Baptism is the means by which His grace is poured out in our hearts. He is not “obligated” in any way to confer His grace upon us.

It appears that you have not made a distinction between holy works (ergo hagios) and works of the flesh. Holy works are those that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Baptism is one of these. When we have done all that He has commanded, we say “we are unworthy servants, and have only done that which is our duty”. He does not owe us any “wage”.

No, Pat, it is not. It appears that you do not understand the basic sacramental principle. yes, of course we prepare to receive His grace. Do you remember how the household of Cornelius prepared to receive His grace? Do you think God “owed” the house of Cornelius salvation?

No, the expectation is that because of the preparation and then the “performance”; then God is expected to impart some of His saving Grace in other words you do your part and He will do His part; it is a works -based salvation that Jesus did not preach.

I am glad that you have finally been able to understand and accept God’s grace. It was one of the things I had trouble with also. I thought that I was supposed to work “on” my salvation, instead of work “out” my salvation. there is a world of difference. In working "on’, there is a sense that we have to achieve some state of righteousness in order to get to heaven. In working “out” there is a recognition that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. We are made to fulfill the works of righteousness that He has predestined for us from the beginning of time. The grace in which we are sealed at baptism is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

What a great blessing! And His commandments are not burdensome…

Yes, this is true. the more we are in His Word, the more our intentions will be brought into conformity with His intentions. We move away from selfishness toward selflessness.

I went through most of it; and notice your answers; yes, but no…yes, but no, then you must get technical with semantics such as sprinkling; I was sprinkled as an infant by a Catholic priest so i was told. It is funny reading your posts; you are like a hybrid Catholic or hybrid Protestant - sometimes you seem to be playing in the Catholic court and other times in the Protestant court, which tells me you don’t fully believe either one of them completely. What a rough place to be in my opinion. CAF must be a good place for you to “feel good”; so I’m happy you have found a place to spend your time and energy.