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Pat_De
Guest
The context was he knew where he was going; implication is he knows he will be in heaven. That is a sin in Catholic circles. 2092 is the works based salvation in writing.
- Status
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Pat_De
Guest
**Philippians 1:3-6 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. **
“Until the day of Jesus Christ” always refers to the day we are fully redeemed; taken out of time and placed into eternity.
** 14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.” **
**Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, **
God is the one who chooses who will be reconciled to Himself; He desires all men to come to the saving knowledge, but has chosen the ones that will according to His purpose. Yes the paradox is taught that man chooses to reject Christ and God chooses who will enter into His rest. Humans cannot reconcile this, so in their humanness they deny the obvious passages and accept that which seems fair to their emotions, but God in His sovereignty has worked it out in a fair and equitable manner that we cannot comprehend.
Many will hear the gospel, but only a few will be able to understand it or be allowed to understand it.
**Lu 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. **
God made the choice; not man.
There is no more a definitive passage in all of Scripture to this FACT:
**In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, [NOW COMES IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF REDEMPTION OF MANKIND] to the praise of His glory. **
J
jlhargus
Guest
Pat De: I can say i have faith in a rock and turn away and never visit a rock again just as easily as I can say i have faith in Jesus, then walk away from Jesus. Was that faith genuine? No An apostate is one who makes an outward claim of “faith” in something or someone, then turns around and walks away or in some cases begin their own faith. The faith is not real which is why John wrote the following for people just like you to get a handle on the concept:
**1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ** They went away from us and proved they were not of us (Christians)
JL: Try again, that’s not going to fly, you’ll have to do better than that. If they were only pretending to believe, then they could NEVER be APOSTATE as they NEVER possessed ANYTHING to APOSTATIZE from. Nor could they EVER be RENEWED had they never been NEWED first (BORN AGAIN).
No a HYPOCRITE is one who makes an outward claim of “faith” in something or someone, then turns around and walks away or in some cases begin their own faith. The faith is not real which is why John wrote the following for people just like you to get a handle on the concept:
**1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ** They went away from us and proved they were not of us (Christians)
I think you corner yourself, believing a tradition of men made a doctrine of God, to nullify the Word of God. Ask yourself, how can one be an apostate if they never possessed what they apostatized from? Did Paul ever write letters to the Church of UNBELIEVERS? Aren’t all Paul’s letters addressed to BELIEVERS? Did those UNBELIEVERS preserve and give, to the Church of BELIEVERS, the letter to the Hebrews? How could we trust a letter preserved by UNBELIEVERS?
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]
Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Jews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance, taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, as long as they remain obstinate.
If OSAS, why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other sacrifice or name under heaven by which men can be saved.
2Pt2:20 For if after they have ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. 21 For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Sources: RSV, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Commentary and Notes by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Douay-Rheims Bible, footnotes, Loreto Publications. NAB, The Catholic Answer Bible footnotes, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division. And a Protestant source, David Guzik’s Commentaries on the Bible, on line @ studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006
**1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ** They went away from us and proved they were not of us (Christians)
JL: Try again, that’s not going to fly, you’ll have to do better than that. If they were only pretending to believe, then they could NEVER be APOSTATE as they NEVER possessed ANYTHING to APOSTATIZE from. Nor could they EVER be RENEWED had they never been NEWED first (BORN AGAIN).
No a HYPOCRITE is one who makes an outward claim of “faith” in something or someone, then turns around and walks away or in some cases begin their own faith. The faith is not real which is why John wrote the following for people just like you to get a handle on the concept:
**1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ** They went away from us and proved they were not of us (Christians)
I think you corner yourself, believing a tradition of men made a doctrine of God, to nullify the Word of God. Ask yourself, how can one be an apostate if they never possessed what they apostatized from? Did Paul ever write letters to the Church of UNBELIEVERS? Aren’t all Paul’s letters addressed to BELIEVERS? Did those UNBELIEVERS preserve and give, to the Church of BELIEVERS, the letter to the Hebrews? How could we trust a letter preserved by UNBELIEVERS?
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]
Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Jews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance, taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, as long as they remain obstinate.
If OSAS, why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other sacrifice or name under heaven by which men can be saved.
2Pt2:20 For if after they have ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. 21 For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Sources: RSV, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Commentary and Notes by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Douay-Rheims Bible, footnotes, Loreto Publications. NAB, The Catholic Answer Bible footnotes, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division. And a Protestant source, David Guzik’s Commentaries on the Bible, on line @ studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006
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Pat_De
Guest
, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.] With your theory, Peter should have said, since you now believe you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and now saved from the due penalty of sin. If you want, you can be baptized as a sign of that already accomplished event, but it’s not necessary. Yet Peter said, REPENT, BE BAPTIZED, FOR REMISSION OF SINS, RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.
Pat De: Paul knew he was saved the minute he regained his sight; so if you truly want to follow the apostle Paul as your mentor, then you should hold onto the things which he wrote.
JL: Yet his sins were not washed away and he did not receive the Holy Spirit till he was baptized. Where does scripture tell us, “Paul knew he was saved the minute he regained his sight”?
Act9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO? And THE LORD SAID unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and IT SHALL BE TOLD THEE WHAT THOU MUST DO
Acts9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, AND be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and HE RECEIVED SIGHT forthwith, AND arose, and WAS BAPTIZED.
[Acts22:12 And one **Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 AND now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]
Paul received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized, as Peter said, REPENT, BE BAPTIZED, FOR REMISSION OF SINS, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. I could go on, but this is off topic. If you want to discuss baptism, purgatory, Tradition or any other topic start another line and let me know.
Pat De: Salvation is both complete and incomplete in this life as Scripture teaches and from who’s perspective you are viewing it from. God determined before the foundation of the world who would be in heaven to glorify Him yet we are saved, being saved and will be saved.
JL: I am not sure if I understand you correctly here. I know, God KNEW who would freely CHOOSE and accept salvation before the foundation of the world and who would reject salvation. Yet you seem to imply God determined whom HE would save and whom HE would condemn to hell without either the saved or unsaved having an oportunity to CHOSE, to accept or reject God’s grace. Am I understanding you correctly?
Please learn to use quotes like everyone else if you expect a response. If you do not know how to, then just ask someone.
The paradox of free will is taught in Scripture, man makes a choice to reject the gospel and is damned and God chooses according to the kind intentions and of His will. Both are taught and both are to be accepted, but none of it can be reconciled by the human mind. I will assure you that those in heaven and those in hell will all agree He was fair and just.
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Pat_De
Guest
Because you do not understand the Biblical understanding of apostate does not make me wrong; but it does make you wrong because I do understand the meaning and the example is accurate. What makes one an apostate is that they turn from what they professed to believe, not from what they genuinely believed because if they genuinely believed they would not turn away from it - get it!!
There are two kinds of faith, genuine faith and a false or professing faith. If you understood the Parable of the soils, then you would understand the difference and much more as Jesus implies in Mark’s account of that particular parable.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Please show me don’t just make statements, as though I should just accept whatever you say?
J
jlhargus
Guest
Pat De: Because you do not understand the Biblical understanding of apostate does not make me wrong; but it does make you wrong because I do understand the meaning and the example is accurate. What makes one an apostate is that they turn from what they professed to believe, not from what they genuinely believed because if they genuinely believed they would not turn away from it - get it!!
There are two kinds of faith, genuine faith and a false or professing faith. If you understood the Parable of the soils, then you would understand the difference and much more as Jesus implies in Mark’s account of that particular parable.
JL: Show me don’t just make useless statements.
Ask yourself, how can one be an apostate if they never possessed what they apostatized from? Did Paul ever write letters to the Church of UNBELIEVERS? Aren’t all Paul’s letters addressed to BELIEVERS? Did those UNBELIEVERS preserve and give, to the Church of BELIEVERS, the letter to the Hebrews? How could we trust a letter preserved by UNBELIEVERS?
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]
Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Jews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance, taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, as long as they remain obstinate.
If OSAS, why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other sacrifice or name under heaven by which men can be saved.
2Pt2:20 For if after they have ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. 21 For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
There are two kinds of faith, genuine faith and a false or professing faith. If you understood the Parable of the soils, then you would understand the difference and much more as Jesus implies in Mark’s account of that particular parable.
JL: Show me don’t just make useless statements.
Ask yourself, how can one be an apostate if they never possessed what they apostatized from? Did Paul ever write letters to the Church of UNBELIEVERS? Aren’t all Paul’s letters addressed to BELIEVERS? Did those UNBELIEVERS preserve and give, to the Church of BELIEVERS, the letter to the Hebrews? How could we trust a letter preserved by UNBELIEVERS?
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]
Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns believers, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those once Christian Jews, who left the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, returning and placing their faith in animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance, taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. They are separated from Christ and his people, by choice and crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, as long as they remain obstinate.
If OSAS, why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can’t happen? How can non-believers, fall away from something they don’t have? Could non-believers be RESTORED to something they haven’t first possessed? The point is when a believer falls away from Christ, they will not find salvation in anyone other than Christ, it is impossible, as there is no other sacrifice or name under heaven by which men can be saved.
2Pt2:20 For if after they have ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. 21 For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Pat_De
Guest
All you need to do is read the past 3-5 posts of mine and it is there or pick up your Bible and read through Romans 8 about 8 times until it sinks in.
Anyway; I am out of here and done with this thread because it is a dead thread!!
G
guanophore
Guest
And these characteristics also identify Christians who are walking in the flesh, and not the Spirit.
On the contrary, we KNOW that we are reading a Catholic letter, written to a Catholic comminity,and we know that there is nothing in it thPaul states that is not consistent with the Catholic faith.
Not all Christians will inherit the Kingdom Pat. Only those that obey His commandments will do so.
No, once a person is baptized, they have an indelible seal of the HS. The Apostles called it “the circumcision made without hands”. It is permanent, which means, if a person becomes a Christian, then falls away from the faith, their last state is worse than their first. It would have been better for them never to have known the way of salvation.
I agree. This is a Pelagian position, which is a heresy defeated by the Church in the second century. If you are under some misapprehension that this is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, then you are not well educated in the Catholic faith. Perhaps this is what you understood when you were claiming to be Catholic? If so , then you have unwittingly embraced a heresy, which is probably a result of poor catechesis.
There will be apostates in hell. Those are Christians that have fallen away from the faith. You are right, it is not funny at all. I also agree that scripture supports apostates and disobedient persons go to hell. This applies to persons who are baptized Christians as well as those who are not.
And why would “hanging around” them be a problem?
1Cor.5
[9] I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
[11] But rather I wrote to you not to associate with[SIGN] any one who bears the name of brother [/SIGN]if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber – not even to eat with such a one.
Now, I know you will say “oh, he was never really a “brother”, but only was bearing the name of one”. But this immoral person is a member of the church - one of the baptized
12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
[13] God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”
What Paul speaks of here (excommunication) does not apply to “outsiders” but only to those who are members of the household of faith.
However, Paul makes the same point again in Eph.
Eph.5
[1] Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
[3] But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints.
[4] Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving.
[5] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
[7] Therefore do not associate with them,
[8] for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
[9] (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true),
[10] and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
[11] Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
[12] For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret;
[13] but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.
[14] Therefore it is said, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead,
and Christ shall give you light.”
[SIGN][15] Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
[16] making the most of the time, because the days are evil.
[17] Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. [/SIGN]
All this spiritual direction would be useless if it were not possible for christians to fall into such sins.
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, we all have much to learn. It is curious, though, that you would make this observation about us with such a mocking tone. It reveals the attitude of your heart.
Personally, I am not one for using the Holy SCriptures as “proof texts”. I don’t think it befits that nature of scripture, which was not written to be extracted verse by verse and used to derive doctrine. But what Calvin spawned is no more “of God” than using scripture to justify slavery and other sins. It just means that he was able to weave scripture into his ideas in a way that pursuades many people. We see the same thing with the Mormins and the JW.
I am glad we are in agreement on this point.
Catholics accept Jesus promise that he would lead the Church into all Truth. This is why we trust that what the Apostles committed to the Church is preserved infallibly by His HS.
Indeed they have good skills in quoting scripture. Even Satan has shown he can do this. Such a skill is not necessarily la testimony of having Truth.
I don’t know him personally so I am not sure if he misrepresents the Catholic faith the way you seem to do, out of ignorance, or if he really is deliberately attempting to decieve by his words. Either way you look at it, it is pandering lies. If he is the source, then he is the liar. If, like you maybe, he is just passing on lies that were passed on to him, then he is spreading misinformation . Both are wrong actions, tho one is more wrong than the other.
I used to be one of those Catholics, so I can personally testify that my itching ears were certainly wanting to be scratched. I was hungry for Truth, and I felt I was not getting in in my Catholic catechism. It may be that all of these people are equally uneducated in the faith. This is one of the reasons that heresy is so serious. It is able to capture those who are weak in their faith, and snare them.
I am willing to concede that he is doing what he believes is right in the eyes of God,a nd that he is faithful to the Truth as he understands it. I think the vast majority of my passionate separated brethren are in the same condition. They stand in the tradition of Apollos.
Yes, just as he used Judas to accmoplish His Divine plan. God is certainly able to draw straight with crooked lines.
I think that what the CC teaches is true, and that God uses ecclesial communities such as this to draw people to himself. Those who stand in the tradition of Apollos are very much treasured by God.
G
guanophore
Guest
Indeed He does.
I can’t think of any, buth when I hear them preach things that contradict the Apostolic faith, and disparate the One Church founded by Christ, it is painful, and saddens me.
You seem to be doing quite a bit of dividing all by yourself.
Yes, there are some that were wolves among sheep from the beginning, that is true. HOwever, apostasy is something else. It might help you to look at the meaning of the word, since you are not using it according to its meaning:
(apo, from, and stasis, station, standing, or position).
The word itself in its etymological sense, signifies the desertion of a post, the giving up of a state of life; he who voluntarily embraces a definite state of life cannot leave it, therefore, without becoming an apostate.
You see, one must have a hold of something in order to let go of it, and fall away. That is why such language is used in Hebrews.
[4] For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
[5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
[6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
V. 5 is clear that they have already been restored once to right relationship with God through repentance. They have had the remission of sins. The reference of tasting of the heavenly gift is a reference to Eucharist, which is reserved for members of the Church. Being a partaker of the HS. means baptized into Christ. At that time, the Word of God of the NT was not written, so partakers recieved His aposotlic message through the kerygma.
When Jesus was crucified the first time, many of these people were still dead in their sins, and did not have personal culpability for his death. Now that they have been enlightened, tasted, and are partakers, if they deny Him , they crucify Him afresh.
I don’t think you ever answer my question about how one could be a 'partaker" of the HS, without being a Christian. I am very interested to hear about this.
J
jerry_kelso
Guest
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Pat de: you can use your out of context scriptures all day and that is what they’ll still be and you d till won’t be able to reconcile them with all the scriptures on the subject. Judas had time to change his mind but he didn’t. Pharoah had 10 chances and still didn’t listen. God endures with the wicked and when enough is enough when they are hardened past the point of no return the he is righteous in his judgement to not have mercy on them. The reason you want to look up the scriptures on irresistable grace and predestination is because there is none. When you are wrong just admit it or wait til you get more solid evidence.
I believe you can be eternally secure through what grace produces in a christian’s life but it doiesn’t mean that you can’t change your mind. Many christians fall into sin all the time and some are restored like the fornicator in Corinthians, some don’t like Annias and Sapphira or Demas who loved the world and then others were not chrisitans at all like in 1 john. But to stereotype every single person in this sense is to say those peoplel have no common sense to know that they were ever saved and against God’s character of judging righteously.
A mans will not be judged by what apostle he followed or because he followed what he thoughty made sense. He will be judged whether he lived a life sowing to the flesh which reaps corruption or a life to the spirit which reaps life everlasting. This was spoken directly to christians but it also speaks to nonbelievers as well God Bless Jerry Kelso
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guanophore
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So, you are saying that the seeds thrown on the ground by the sower sprouted because they were trying to take advantage of something? What was that?
It is interesting that your rendering of this parable, and of Jesus, are so different.
Matt. 13 [18] “Hear then the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
[20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
[21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
[22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
Jesus says that one hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. now, Calvanism and the TULIP teach that this is not possible for the reprobate, because of depravity. Calvanism teaches that we are unable to respond toward God in any way positive until we are regenerated by His Word. So, the difficulty with this passage is that, according to Calvanism, this person was regenerated, so that he could respond with joy. That leaves a need to disqualify his regeneration.
In the next case, we see again one who “hears the word” but is choked out by cares of this world, and is not fruitful. Now, we know that the branch cannot bear any fruit unless it is attached to the vine, so the expectation that this seed should bear fruit only makes sense if the person had been connected to the source of life. It shows that it is possible to be connnected to life, and then have the life choked out.
There is nothing here in His explanation about “true” or 'false" faith. Such a notion is a modern extrabiblical innovation designed to dispatch the Apsotolic Teachings such as this, so that the scriptures can be shaped by Calvasnistic thought.
This is a good example of reading present day events and thinking back into scripture, also known as eisegesis. When Jesus explained this parable, there was no “Sunday Church” or “helping out here or there” (it was all or nothing for the Kingdom) There was also no basketball or televised church. I think perhaps you have mischaracterized this part of the parable.
however, it is true that those who have sprouted can be choked out by such things. It does not mean this preacher 'false faith", but that his faith, or his practice of it, was imperfect. I am glad you were scandalized by this. It is a good sign.
This is a false statement, Pat, and demonstrates that we are not ready to move on. What you have stated here, that God provides the perseverance, is Catholic. It is reflected in the Scriptures because the NT was written by Catholics. We participate with God in our perseverance, as we work out what is at work in us.
If you are unable to accept what the CC actually teaches, and insist on embracing the lies to which you hold so dearly about the Catholic faith, then there is really not much more we can say on this.
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guanophore
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I would prefer to believe that God drew you here to correct some of your misunderstandings about the Catholic faith. Would that be so bad?
I am not sure what this means. I came here to learn, and am still learning every day. I don’t post on any other boards.
Every little bit helps, but why would you support a Catholic ministry? You are not allowed to evangelize here, so wouldn’t that be a waste of money from your perspective? since you believe true Christians need to “come out of Catholicism” it seems counterproductive to support a ministry that is trying to educate misled Catholics such as yourself so that they do not embrace the heresies that you have.
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guanophore
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Truer words could not be said.
How is that? I think you have misuderstood this term as well.I’m glad for you, but that is the sin of presumption…
Every day at Mass, as a matter of fact.
It was Jesus that placed His Body and Blood into the elements of bread and wine. He offered the once for all blood sacrifice on the cross, and it is through His Body and Blood that we participate in this sacrifice, through which we have forgiveness by the shedding of His blood.
Jesus and the Apostles used the Alexandrian Septuagint, but at this time He was speaking to Palestinian Pharisees, who accepted as Scripture the books of Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets, and the “writings” which included proverbs and historical books. They were not drawn together into a recognized canon, and different groups used different collections.
This is great Pat! It is also one of the main reasons I am here at CAF. So, can you cite the early fathers on the vicar of Christ, for my enrichment?
Also, I would like the date and circumstance when and where “it went form being the HS to the Pope”. Any historical references would be helpful to me on this point.
It sounds very much like our Mormon evangelists who propose a “great apostasy” in the early church, but I have never been able to get any documentation about where and when this actually occurred.
It is interesting you should direct me to do this, because this was actually one of my earliest confusions. As it turned out, I was asking this question beceause I had been contaminated by the heresy of Sola Scriptura. You see, the whole Truth was never committed to Scripture, and Scripture was never intended to hold all of it. The fullness of grace and Truth is in Christ, who cannot be confined to scripture. And that is why we do not try to extract Truth from the pages of the writings. On the contrary, having recieved the Truth as He committted it to the Church once for all, we can see it REFLECTED in the Scripture, but the Scripture is not the Source of it. Jesus is the Source.
There has always been a catechism. It was recently updated, and there are now more literate people than ever before. But one book that could hold 2000 years of history would be too big to turn the pages.
Perhaps you did not do this when you were Catholic? Or, perhaps you did, and were unable to find the answers you needed?
It would be an error to assume that everyone experiences the Catholic faith in the same way you do.
I am sorry to hear that you have become worn out before you could accept that what you believe are falsehoods about the Catholic faith. Perhaps, if you were to admit that what you believe about CC is wrong, it would force you to question the other teachings you have recieved, and the whole garment would begin to unravel?
It does not have to have a subforum. If there were one on Sacred Tradition, that would be the place.
I think you would like to “prove” using scripture that CC is wrong. I fear that you are proving wrong only a strawman, though, like you do in this thread. If you cannot accept what the CC really teaches, then you will only be doing battle with your imagination. There isn’t a subforum for that either.
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guanophore
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No, not for us. Catholcism is not a "bible christian"faith. Our faith does not come from scripture as that of modern evangelicals. Our faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The doctrine of the eternal sacrifice and of confession are reflected in the NT because they were given to the Church by Christ, who is the Source of our faith.So, if the scriptures don’t specifically say that you are representing Christ’s eternal sacrifice before God, then it is your interpretation of Holy Scripture to fit your agenda; sort of like John 20:20-23 justifying going to confession! The verses all use the past tense of slay; slain means died, murdered, etc, so you don’t have to keep killing Him over and over again!
There is need for Catholics to twist scripture to fit, since all of it is Catholic.
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guanophore
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I can certainly understand why it would seem that way from the point of view from which you read it.This verse truly speaks to OSAS because those whose names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will worship the beast and be damned to hell. While those whose names are in Lamb’s Book of Life are predestined to heaven.
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Springkeeper
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Pat de (if you’re still out there), I’m certainly not the apologetics giant Guanophore (or others are) but I used to listen to John MacArthur a lot and while we were stationed in Miramar I wanted to attend his church but we had committed to Shadow Mountain (David Jeremiah). I listened to his “Brick-by-Brick” CD set at least 5 times and read dozens of his articles on the web as well as some of his books. He is an excellent speaker and can quote the Bible exceedingly well. On the face of it Calvinism has a certain logic to it and it helped me to get past the whole notion of “carnal Christians” but I had to leave behind that theology when I just could not get past the idea that love must be a choice of free will or it is not truly love at all. BTW, my fellow Baptists cringe when I tell them their belief in OSAS is based on Calvinism (a belief they abhore). I pray that your recovery from surgery goes well and that you will be fully healed.
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guanophore
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I am pretty sure this means “former Catholic”, however, it is clear that she never understood the Catholic faith before she chose to abandon her birthright for a bowl of stew.
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guanophore
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Not a bit! In fact, the CC calls this an act of hope and faith.
This is exactly what we do that enables us to believe that the Church is infallible in leading us to heaven!
We trust in His promises, take Him at His Word, believe that He did what He said He would. We know Him as the author and finisher of our faith, the founder of the Church, His One Body, into which He has purchased our membership with His blood.
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