“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

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Hi, this is Pitcharan from India, a first generation catholic born to formerly Hindu parents who had embraced chrsitianity before their marriage, as a family; i.e. alongwith their parents (my grandparents - paternal and maternal).

I have seen many of your posts and impressed with your updates of scriptural history and deep interest and quest for unadulterated truth.

Despite a good catholic upbringing I did wander into atheism between the ages of 17 and 27 and gradually returned between the ages of 27 and 39. Now there is no looking or going back.

My this post addressed to you, is for two reasons:
  1. An urge to share my learnings on canonicity and inspired scriptures.
  2. To respond to your lament in one of your posts that no catholic ever came forward to bear witness to you.
Now coming to purpose 1., I am happy to share that I struggled with this for nearly 7 years between 1996 and 2003 and was rewarded with inspired explanations that enabled me to
  • come to terms with prima facie unacceptable contents of the bible.
  • find meaning in apparently ridiculous devotional practices
  • continue receiving explanantions and purpose of some of the most difficult and complex bibilical texts
Coming to purpose 2., I bear witness to these miraculaous events that I have personally expereiencd.
a) My parents’ families were led to Jesus through Marian devotion which is very popular among most hindus and muslims in India.

b) When I was 13 years old, a Hindu neighbour of ours became demon possessed one day and her loud cries and strange utternaces in several alien languages shunned the entire neighbourhood. She was an elderly woman with children and grandchildren who occupied the upstairs house. Her sons and daughters firstly engaged their own hindu exorcist (called Ojhas in India), who tried several things and failed to even slightly improve her condition. The family then hired a muslim exorcist (called Babas in India) through their close muslim friend. He too sincerely tried but failed to achieve any result. The desparate family approached us for help and my father told me to go and inform our parish priest (late Rev. Fr. AJ Adaikalam). He unassumingly but readily responded by ariving on a bicycle. At the very outset he said in a ‘matter of fact’ manner that he will drive out the demon in 5 minutes and we should not be perturbed by the temporary after effect of his hands shaking for a while. He proved his own words to the amazement of everyone and left humbly after politely refusing all rewards offered.

c) I have personally witnessed instant healing of a nagging psychological problem of a hindu colleague after drinking a glass of water from a popular miraculous spring near my present locality (Nagamangalam in Krishnagiri district of Tamilnadu) which is gradually turning into another Lourdes.
 
Pitcharan said:
Hi, this is Pitcharan from India, a first generation catholic born to formerly Hindu parents who had embraced chrsitianity before their marriage, as a family; i.e. alongwith their parents (my grandparents - paternal and maternal).

I have seen many of your posts and impressed with your updates of scriptural history and deep interest and quest for unadulterated truth.

Despite a good catholic upbringing I did wander into atheism between the ages of 17 and 27 and gradually returned between the ages of 27 and 39. Now there is no looking or going back.

My this post addressed to you, is for two reasons:
  1. An urge to share my learnings on canonicity and inspired scriptures.
  2. To respond to your lament in one of your posts that no catholic ever came forward to bear witness to you.
Now coming to purpose 1., I am happy to share that I struggled with this for nearly 7 years between 1996 and 2003 and was rewarded with inspired explanations that enabled me to
  • come to terms with prima facie unacceptable contents of the bible.
  • find meaning in apparently ridiculous devotional practices
  • continue receiving explanantions and purpose of some of the most difficult and complex bibilical texts
Coming to purpose 2., I bear witness to these miraculaous events that I have personally expereiencd.
a) My parents’ families were led to Jesus through Marian devotion which is very popular among most hindus and muslims in India.

b) When I was 13 years old, a Hindu neighbour of ours became demon possessed one day and her loud cries and strange utternaces in several alien languages shunned the entire neighbourhood. She was an elderly woman with children and grandchildren who occupied the upstairs house. Her sons and daughters firstly engaged their own hindu exorcist (called Ojhas in India), who tried several things and failed to even slightly improve her condition. The family then hired a muslim exorcist (called Babas in India) through their close muslim friend. He too sincerely tried but failed to achieve any result. The desparate family approached us for help and my father told me to go and inform our parish priest (late Rev. Fr. AJ Adaikalam). He unassumingly but readily responded by ariving on a bicycle. At the very outset he said in a ‘matter of fact’ manner that he will drive out the demon in 5 minutes and we should not be perturbed by the temporary after effect of his hands shaking for a while. He proved his own words to the amazement of everyone and left humbly after politely refusing all rewards offered.

c) I have personally witnessed instant healing of a nagging psychological problem of a hindu colleague after drinking a glass of water from a popular miraculous spring near my present locality (Nagamangalam in Krishnagiri district of Tamilnadu) which is gradually turning into another Lourdes.
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Thank you so much for this personal witness, Pitcharan. I have been reading your posts, and wondering how you came into the faith. 👍
 
Pat_De said:
The Catholic position concerning the DC’s is correct just as the Orthodox position concerning the DC’s is correct; only they differ because they are correct in the sight of Catholic and Orthodox men/women even if the books don’t exactly match. The Jews don’t recognize them for good reason and neither do anyone who believes the Word of God contains no error and is preserved from error. We might as well throw in the JW’s; they believe they have it right and the others do not and all three have one thing in common, they have traditions that don’t pass the scrutiny of Scripture and yet all 3 make the claim they do; so who is the right; especially between the Catholics and Orthodox? Perhaps sticking to what is known as Truth, the Holy Scriptures is more than enough revelation to bring people into the Kingdom, which in the end is what counts.
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**Well, there you go again referring the the Scriptures as the only Truth when the Scriptures themselves tell us that the CHURCH is the Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
Hmmmm . . . what “truth” do you believe?
 
Pat_De said:
He and the other Elders could walk circles around you just from memory and heart knowledge of Scripture as he has with Father Manning on Larry King several times.

But you made a blanket and very uncharitable; actually very hateful claim that he is a bold face liar.

I don’t think you will have to worry much about seeing him in the next life unless something radical occurs. Considering that more than half of his congregation have come out of Catholicism; he must have some magic words or voo-doo religion, but the truth of the matter is that he faithfully preaches and actually teaches the word of God very faithfully and is obedient to the truth of what he preaches and God has always used men like him, Calvin and Luther to do great things. So he is either being blessed by God or under the influence of Satan, but given the history of Grace Community Church and its humble beginnings and its Christ centered focus and the millions upon millions of lives that have been changed in a positive way; I’d say God is the influence; what do you think? God has a tendency to bless those that are faithful to reading, studying and being obedient to His word and especially of the ones called by God and the fruit of the ministries bear witness to this truth.

The fact that that man really gets under your skin tells me I need to listen more to him…LOL Who are some other Protestant preacher-teachers that really get under you skin to the point of hatred?

Perhaps I should reread the things “RightlyDivide” has written since you seem to have some serious dislike toward him/her; tells me he/she must be touching on the truth nerve that pains you so much. The Bible, in fact Jesus, said the truth will divide and this thread is certainly proof of that, which is why I am done with it…plus I need rest from my surgery.
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Pat - the ONLY thing that the Bible refers to as the Truth other than Jesus (John 14:6) - is the Church (1 Tim. 3:15). Jesus says that He and the Church are ONE - indivisible (Acts 9:4-5).

**The sad fact is that John MacAruthur IS a liar of the worst sort because he uses his lies to further splinter the Body of Christ.

I have a tape of his where he claims that:
- The Vatican has the largest collection of pornography in the world.
- That the confessional is where they recruit nuns by breaking them down psychologically.
- That we worship Mary.
- That we believe that the priest pulls Jesus down from heaven during the consecration before communion.**

**The transcript of that tape on his website is heavily edited to cover up much of his lies. **It is a homogenized, watered-down version of the filth he spews on the tape.

I would respect him more if he were a mere bank robber - but he is much worse. ALL liars get under my skin because they pervert the truth and waive it in the face of the ignorant. John MacArthur is the very sort of person that Jesus warned about when he said, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves" (Matt. 7:15).

All he and his “Elders” are adept at is twisting the Scriptures to their own destruuction (2 Pet. 3:16). The fact that he has “converted” many uneducated or poorly-catechized Catholics is no big surprise. There is nothing more dangerous that ignorant Catholics.
 
Pat_De said:
Ask your Eastern Orthodox friends the same question…LOL God gave us the only truth and that is in His Word. How one rightly divides that truth is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit isn’t guiding most that claim Him; just as the Scripture teaches.
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**I would tell them what I’ve always told them:
Jesus gave us only ONE Church (Matt. 16:15-19) and ONE authority (Matt. 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).
He prayed fervently for the ONE of that ONE Church (John 17).

To my Protestant brothers and sisters, I would add:
He didn’t give is tens of thousands of constantly-splintering, bickering “truths”. . .
 
Rightlydivide said:
Next is the Festal letter often cited as the first direct evidence of the NT canon (whether I agree or not is immaterial for this conversation. It is from the year 367 AD
Now we turn to Cyril, a bishop in Jerusalem, writing around the year 350 AD

Next we have Gregory of Nazianzus prior to 400 AD
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All this displays is an abject ignorance of history and the Church.

I have already discussed how some of the Fathers had different ideas of what should be in the canon of Scripture. Each Father you quoted does not make up the Church or its binding Authority. The fact is that many letters and epistles were considered canonical by some such as the Letter of Clement, the Epistles of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.

**It was the CHURCH who overrode ALL of the individual lists and proclaimed the canon of Scripture. **This is why St. Augustine was moved to say, "I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me."
Study Church history - then come back with a response . . . :rolleyes:
 
jericho777 said:
This verse truly speaks to OSAS because those whose names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will worship the beast and be damned to hell. While those whose names are in Lamb’s Book of Life are predestined to heaven. 👍
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WRONG.
Rev. 3:5 says explicitly that any of those names in the Book of Life CAN be blotted out.

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13).
NO eternal assurance . . .
 
1beleevr said:
So, if the scriptures don’t specifically say that you are representing Christ’s eternal sacrifice before God, then it is your interpretation of Holy Scripture to fit your agenda; sort of like John 20:20-23 justifying going to confession! The verses all use the past tense of slay; slain means died, murdered, etc, so you don’t have to keep killing Him over and over again!😛
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Now, THERE’S an excercise in ignorance.
John 3:16 says that “…God so loved the world”. * This is a past-tense statement. Does he hate us now??*

John goes on to say, "…that he sent his only begotten son…"
If Jesus was "begotten (past-tense) - does that mean that he is NOT eternal??

Go back and really READ your Bible injstead of twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Pet 3:16). 👍
 
elvisman said:
All this displays is an abject ignorance of history and the Church.

I have already discussed how some of the Fathers had different ideas of what should be in the canon of Scripture. Each Father you quoted does not make up the Church or its binding Authority. The fact is that many letters and epistles were considered canonical by some such as the Letter of Clement, the Epistles of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.

It was the CHURCH who overrode ALL of the individual lists and proclaimed the canon of Scripture. This is why St. Augustine was moved to say, "I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me."
Study Church history - then come back with a response . . . :rolleyes:
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Yes. Actually you are right. Your church did proclaim your OT around the year 400 AD in various local councils. Your canon, not mine, not the Eastern Orthodox, not the Oriental Orthodox but yes…yours.
 
Rightlydivide said:
Yes. Actually you are right. Your church did proclaim your OT around the year 400 AD in various local councils. Your canon, not mine, not the Eastern Orthodox, not the Oriental Orthodox but yes…yours.
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Yup - we simply took the OT that Jesus used and compiled the NT because we remembered what Jesus said:

*John 16:12-15 "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. *
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 👍
 
1beleevr said:
So, if the scriptures don’t specifically say that you are representing Christ’s eternal sacrifice before God, then it is your interpretation of Holy Scripture to fit your agenda;
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JL: The mass is the wedding supper of the Lamb. What did Christ finish on the cross, Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17 Christ our High Priest had to enter the Holy of Holies with his blood, to make atonement, just as the OT High Priest entered the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice, to make atonement. Christ entered once into the true tabernacle not made by hands, were he ever lives, the Lamb of God once slain, who takes away the sins of the world as our one mediator, interceding for us. Bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING on the cross, this IS my body, this IS my blood. Bringing to remembance, showing HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD, as a Lamb slain, before the Father and MAKING PRESENT in Mass to his people, the Church, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. His body and shed blood present on our altars.

[Ex 25:30 And **you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, the Lamb of God, who will stand in the midst of the throne bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father.

[Rv 5:6 …**in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating, [1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.]. Christ our propitiation for sins before after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice.

CONTINUED:
 
[Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great among THE GENTILES; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. [That PURE OFFER=sacrifice, this IS my body, this IS my blood, is our Eucharistic Lord, Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifces were supposed to be clean, without spot, only Christ is PURE. The prophecy of Malachi says, Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places. The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure. ]

Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne …stood a Lamb as it had been slain …Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. … Hb 7:24 … this man … continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. …Hb 8:1…We have such an high priest…set on the right hand of Majesty… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore it is OF NECESSITY that this man have somewhat also TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 …serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things … … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry … MEDIATOR OF a better COVENANT.]

Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, now TO APPEAR in the PRESENCE of God FOR US:]

Christ is not sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance before the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.

The fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass in the paradise of God=Church. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE

[Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; **BUT THE HEAVENLY things themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these.] Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:] BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered. The body and SHED BLOOD, without which there is NO REMMISSION, is on our altars.

By the way Chirst is NOT pulled down FROM heaven, but HEAVEN and EARTH are united and the kingdom is present. Heaven and earth united in worship, just as we see the 24 elders worshiping before the Lamb as though salin.

[Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and TO an innumerable company of ANGELS, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and TO the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, and TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

As Catholics we come TO Heavenly Jerusalem, TO angels, TO God, TO spirits of just men, TO Jesus TO the blood. Through the one mediatorship of Jesus, we COME united in worship or thru individual prayer. The veil of the temple has been removed we have access to the Holy of Holies and ALL who are there.
 
elvisman said:
Yup - we simply took the OT that Jesus used and compiled the NT because we remembered what Jesus said:

**John 16:12-15 ***"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. *
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 👍
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No. You did not. The OT canon of Christ was the OT canon we currently use. The early church until around the year 400 AD used the same canon as we do-for the most part. There were a few exceptions to be sure. However, the very earliest lists match our canon.
 
You have to remember how doctrinally messed up the early church was. In Rome, Galatia, and especially the churches in Revelation we learn about all the errors when people abandoned the true teachings of Christ. Of course it got much worse over time. Thats why it is so important to trust the inspired Bible to find out what he taught. This is much preferable to speculative myths with hundreds of years of development (if that is the proper word).
 
Rightlydivide said:
No. You did not. The OT canon of Christ was the OT canon we currently use. The early church until around the year 400 AD used the same canon as we do-for the most part. There were a few exceptions to be sure. However, the very earliest lists match our canon.
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WRONG.
I have already proven that Jesus and the Apostels studied from and quoted the Deuterocanonicals. I suppplied at least 2 NT references to them that nobody in 3 threads has been able to refute. There are at least 100 references in all but some have multiple sources that Protestants reject.**

Like I’ve said on multiple occasions - the onus is on YOU to prove the Catholic Church wrong because objections to the canon came during the Protestant Revolt some 1200 years later.
 
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