“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[cazayoux]

We should also add this from the Gospel of John, chapter 15

[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

A Christian is a branch, but a branch that can be cast forth and thrown into the fire and burned.
This shows that a Christian that doesn’t ‘bear much fruit’ or ‘abide in Him’ (both action words … work) can be separated from Christ.

michel

 

[estesbob]

The bible is perhaps clearest on the topis of salvation than that of anyother topic. Paul is know as the great Aposatle. The great grace teacher, Paul NEVER taught that you can loose your salvation. In fact he made it painfully clear that there is nothing that can seperate you from the love of hte Father. The key word being seperate and nothing. Paul corrected everyone on works whne they tried to complicate grace. The first apostacy of the church was that of trying to combine works and grace. Grace can in no way be tied to your works nor can works lose salvation. The prodical son always remained a son and always remained with the father though his sin seperated him from the fellowship of the father.
The is no private interpretation of scripture but individually interpreting scripture as the Holy spirit leads you is obvious If you cannot intrepret then why read the Word. OR can you honmestly say you are not interpreting anything when you read??? The answer is obvious and the argument is silly.

If the spirit leads us individually to the answers why does everybody come up with different answers.?

 

[Jimmy_B]

If the spirit leads us individually to the answers why does everybody come up with different answers.?

Good Question…

we’re waiting…

anybody? …

anybody?..

“If the spirit leads us individually to the answers why does everybody come up with different answers.?”

Since this is apparently a Protestant belief in “personal interpretation of the Bible’, then this one should be easy for Protestants to answer…right?

Thank you for your post.

Peace

 

[backfrmthebrink]

Many people do come up with different answers to some questions. That should not be meant to decide that there are many answers. There is absolute truth. I believe there is a way to measure that truth. Does it hold up to a correct understanding of the Word of God. Pauls tells us to "rightly divide the Word of God. Are we doing this? Prayer, Holy Spirit interpretation, Proverbs 2 teaches us how to study the Word of God. We must seek after it as if it were silver. Without being saved however it is all lost. There can be no understanding of scripture. So a question is are you saved? Therre are also those things scripturally that God has been curiously quiet about. Those things many people form opinions on but it is just that opinions. I suspect it is because we cannot really know them. Things like self will, free will and how Gods soverignity works when we are an elect. The difference between Israel and the Church also has aspects that we cannot understand in Gods plan of salvation.
I have not run into those things which I believe the Spirit has lead me to ever comming in conflict with scripture contradiction, or the studies of theology proper.
Salvation is a point in all of this. We are saved because God chose us to be saved and the Holy Spirit reveled the truth of the Gospel to us. We recognized it because of the Holy Spirit ans we accepted Christ Jesus as our savior because the Holy Spirit lead us to that truth.
Another question in this is does the Holy Spirit operate within an apostate envrionment? person? or family? I don’t know but I have witnessed very little if any evidence that he does. I have however witnessed the Holy Spirit working individually within people of apostate groups. God did not elect a “catholic church” He elected individuals who made up His church and these people have come from all areas of life. some have come from the catholics as well but that does not support the doctrine of the catholic church. it supports the renewal of the individual within that church via the Holy Spirit. There is no redemption within the catholic church it is an apostate church and warned of in Revelation as the great whore. There is only rredemption in Christ Jesus. So another and final question is can one be saved and remain in the catholic church?

 

[estesbob]

Many people do come up with different answers to some questions. That should not be meant to decide that there are many answers. ?

Well if it doesn’t mean that what exactly does it mean? Who is version of the true should I accept ? The Jehovah’s Witness version? The Mormon version? The Lutheran version? The Baptist version? The Seventh-day Adventists version? The church of Christ version? Episcopalian version?

Your version?

You and I differ on what is necessary for salvation. How do we resolve that? You and I differ on the nature of the Eucharist. How do we resolve that? You and I differ on the necessity of confession. How do we resolve that? You and I differ on the status of Mary. How do we resolve that?

 

[backfrmthebrink]

Every single one of those differences are easily resolved. What does God’s Word say about any of those. SWhow me one just one verse where it even suggests that we have another mediator to God or another way to God. Show me one place where it tells us we are not saved by believing on Christ AS OUR SAVIOR. Show me one proof of transubstantiation. Study the actual history of the church you have put your faith in because it is not the Church of the Bible. Are you willing to risk your salvation by a pope who tells you that the Bible can be altered, added to, changed or that it is a book you are not meant to read? What did you think the significance of the torn curtain was? God left YOU His Word not the Pope. If you missed it your intentions will not matter because the truth is there to see. What does your heart really say on these matters?

 

[estesbob]

Every single one of those differences are easily resolved. What does God’s Word say about any of those. SWhow me one just one verse where it even suggests that we have another mediator to God or another way to God. Show me one place where it tells us we are not saved by believing on Christ AS OUR SAVIOR. Show me one proof of transubstantiation. Study the actual history of the church you have put your faith in because it is not the Church of the Bible. Are you willing to risk your salvation by a pope who tells you that the Bible can be altered, added to, changed or that it is a book you are not meant to read? What did you think the significance of the torn curtain was? God left YOU His Word not the Pope. If you missed it your intentions will not matter because the truth is there to see. What does your heart really say on these matters?

If every one of those differences can be easily resolved then do so…

Please tell me how one can prove a negative.

Should I risk my salvation by listening to you who deems to interpret scripture for me but has no apparent qualifications to do so?

Please show me where the Church altered Scripture.

By what authority do you presume to interpret scripture about the torn curtain or any other verses for the rest of us?

If the truth is there to see why do you and I have different versions of the truth? Why in fact are there at least 30,000 different versions of the truth out there?

 

[backfrmthebrink]

First you have no idea what my qualifications are. I am a Theologian. I claim to not interpret scripture for anyone. You seem to believe in a universalisim. There is one truth. Just one. Many ideas. I will say this there is not one bit of truth in the catholic doctrin regarding Mary, Priests, confession infant baptisim, transubstantiation, saints, and others. Call no one on earth “Father”. Mary rejoicing because she needed a savior, Mary’s other children in scripture. The mis interpretation of Greek petra and petros. Peter was not the rock that Christ built His church on Christ was the rock. Just read scxripture for yourself and you decide for yourself not the Pope.
BTW John 15 is great. There is indeed a seperation from the Father in our sins but Paul addresses this in 1 cor 3:13 I believe. Paul teaches that it is our works that are tested and burned not us and that we still are saved. study these things carefully. There is no condemnation for believers. NOT ONE. It is our works. big difference.

 

[backfrmthebrink]

BTW we are saved for works not by them. Working out our salvation is what you are doing right now because you really don’t know and that should frighten you. Paul says know it. work it out. be sure. YOU CAN!

 

[estesbob]

First you have no idea what my qualifications are. I am a Theologian. I claim to not interpret scripture for anyone. You seem to believe in a universalisim. There is one truth. Just one. Many ideas. I will say this there is not one bit of truth in the catholic doctrin regarding Mary, Priests, confession infant baptisim, transubstantiation, saints, and others. Call no one on earth “Father”. Mary rejoicing because she needed a savior, Mary’s other children in scripture. The mis interpretation of Greek petra and petros. Peter was not the rock that Christ built His church on Christ was the rock. Just read scxripture for yourself and you decide for yourself not the Pope.
BTW John 15 is great. There is indeed a seperation from the Father in our sins but Paul addresses this in 1 cor 3:13 I believe. Paul teaches that it is our works that are tested and burned not us and that we still are saved. study these things carefully. There is no condemnation for believers. NOT ONE. It is our works. big difference.

I would appreciate it if you would quit parroting the standard Protestant talking points and address the questions I asked you. I spent four years in the seminary and have a minor and theology myself and I would never presume to believe I could interpret scripture for you or anybody else.Yet above once more you start quoting scripture to me and asking me to accept your personal interpretation of it.

I gave you a whole list of differences that I say we cannot resolve and use say we can. I am waiting for you to do so.

 

[estesbob]

BTW we are saved for works not by them. Working out our salvation is what you are doing right now because you really don’t know and that should frighten you. Paul says know it. work it out. be sure. YOU CAN!

We disagree on that. How do we resolve that? Why should I accept your interpretation of what Paul meant?

 

[distracted]

Iis it not your personal interpretation that the Catholic Church is the true church, or that the Magesterium is the interpretive authority?

No, that is not a matter of opinion… It happens to be historical and True… If you study history of the Catholic Church, you will see it goes all theway to Christ… No other church can claim that…

. Most people don’t believe in personal interpetation, but correct interpretation.

if that were true, everyone would find his way to the Catholic Church…

/For the most part, the Bible means what it says, and says what it means.

see, you are already mostly Catholic…

The only time it doesn’t do this is when it makes use of Jewish idioms and makes statements in a cultural context. There is no need for a Magesterium to interpret, just a little homework.

Huh? what?? no comprendo.

The vast majority of differences from Catholics and Protestants come from the assumptions that each brings to Biblical interpretation. For Catholics, it’s deference to the Magesterium. For Protestants, it’s deference to the philosophies of either Calvin or Luther, (sola scriptura, sola fide). Simply making an observation here, not agreeing or disagreeing with any of these.

and this is a good thing?? You are comparing Luther or Calvin to a Magesterium (of a Church that was around 1500 + years before either one??)… Hmmm…

 

[backfrmthebrink]

fUNNY HOW i HAVEW GIVEN YOU ONLY SCRIPTURE. sCRIPTURE A CHILD COULD UNDERSTAND BUT YOU REFUSE TO HEAR IT. This is making me question a few things about you place with God right now and there is no point in continuing. I have only Gods word not the catholic church. That has been good enough for me why not you.

 

[distracted]

fUNNY HOW i HAVEW GIVEN YOU ONLY SCRIPTURE. sCRIPTURE A CHILD COULD UNDERSTAND BUT YOU REFUSE TO HEAR IT. This is making me question a few things about you place with God right now and there is no point in continuing. I have only Gods word not the catholic church. That has been good enough for me why not you.

The best answer to your question is, in my opinion, this:

You have to know what the Catholic religion is (fully) before you can get an answer to this seemingly rhetorical question… (which, as you can see, i am not taking rhetorically)… You can protest to the contrary all you want - that you know the Faith - but i know, from waht you say here, that you don’t…

 

[estesbob]

fUNNY HOW i HAVEW GIVEN YOU ONLY SCRIPTURE. sCRIPTURE A CHILD COULD UNDERSTAND BUT YOU REFUSE TO HEAR IT. This is making me question a few things about you place with God right now and there is no point in continuing. I have only Gods word not the catholic church. That has been good enough for me why not you.

I take it you can not reconcile the differences I listed.

You did not give me Gods word-you gave me you personal interpreation of what Gods word is. Why should I or anyone else accept your interpretation especially given there are so many thousands of different interpreations of Gods word-all reading the same Scripture and all claiming to be led by the Spirit?

 

[Henning]

John 11:35 Jesus wept

I’m wondering just how many different or opposing interpretations there are of this. I or most anyone else who has ever wept can tell you what this means: it means that Jesus wept (bless God’s Jesus)

on the other hand

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ
nevertheless I live
yet not I but Christ liveth in me
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God
who loved me and gave himself for me.

I don’t know (???) if even the Catholic magesterium has plumbed the depths of this one. I know for sure I haven’t. Isn’t there a range of verse interpret-ability, from easy verses (or partial verses like “…Jesus stood…” ) which noone needs help with, to the most difficult verses which no one really understands except those in the God-head??

 

[estesbob]

John 11:35 Jesus wept

I’m wondering just how many different or opposing interpretations there are of this. I or most anyone else who has ever wept can tell you what this means: it means that Jesus wept (bless God’s Jesus)

on the other hand

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ
nevertheless I live
yet not I but Christ liveth in me
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God
who loved me and gave himself for me.

I don’t know (???) if even the Catholic magesterium has plumbed the depths of this one. I know for sure I haven’t. Isn’t there a range of verse interpret-ability, from easy verses (or partial verses like “…Jesus stood…” ) which noone needs help with, to the most difficult verses which no one really understands except those in the God-head??

The Church has binding interpretations on about 5 verses I believe.

The Church has a three prong test for doctrine:

Is it supported by Scripture?
Is it supported by Tradition?
Is it supported by the teachings of the magestrium

Protestants depend only on the first one-the problem being based on who’s interpration of scripture and based on which translation?

 

[backfrmthebrink]

distracted: You are so far from being able to understand anything scripturally. All I see is the enemy having a hold on you. Truth. It is in Gods Word not your church. I cannot help you to understand what only the Holy Spirit can choose to enlighten you about. Open your Bible and study to show yourself approved. I am saddened that you cannot yet see the truth. What is certian is that someday you will from one side or the other. I happen to know what side I will be on as the Bible has taught me that. Praise God fro His word.

 

[cazayoux]

First you have no idea what my qualifications are. I am a Theologian. I claim to not interpret scripture for anyone. You seem to believe in a universalisim. There is one truth. Just one. Many ideas. I will say this there is not one bit of truth in the catholic doctrin regarding Mary, Priests, confession infant baptisim, transubstantiation, saints, and others. Call no one on earth “Father”. Mary rejoicing because she needed a savior, Mary’s other children in scripture. The mis interpretation of Greek petra and petros. Peter was not the rock that Christ built His church on Christ was the rock. Just read scxripture for yourself and you decide for yourself not the Pope.
BTW John 15 is great. There is indeed a seperation from the Father in our sins but Paul addresses this in 1 cor 3:13 I believe. Paul teaches that it is our works that are tested and burned not us and that we still are saved. study these things carefully. There is no condemnation for believers. NOT ONE. It is our works. big difference.

Hehehe … the standard list.
Can’t actually be a theologian.
If you studied *at all *you would not have actually written this list.

I’ll pick one to start with.
If we are not to call any man on earth father, who is that guy married to my mother?
… not only do I call him ‘father’, but the ten commandments tell me to honor him.
Why … there might be something wrong with your simplistic, out-of-context reading of Matthew 23:9.

Answer the question above and I’ll bring you more proof that you read outside of the context in at least one item on your list.

michel

 

[Bwsherman]

distracted: You are so far from being able to understand anything scripturally. All I see is the enemy having a hold on you. Truth. It is in Gods Word not your church. I cannot help you to understand what only the Holy Spirit can choose to enlighten you about. Open your Bible and study to show yourself approved. I am saddened that you cannot yet see the truth. What is certian is that someday you will from one side or the other. I happen to know what side I will be on as the Bible has taught me that. Praise God fro His word.

Backfrmthebrink, I think the people have asked many times for you to provide scripture for what you assert. I have read all of your posts on this forum and only three times do you utilize the Bible you cling so desperately unto but still make very authoritative claims on many other topics. As the Catechism teaches:

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living.”