“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[RobHom]

Ok, I’d like to ask the Catholics this…

What does saved by grace mean to you? If it’s saved by grace by Christ paying the sacrifice for our sins on the cross, why do you think that Jesus has not defeated death and overcome sin?

Yes, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is our “salvation”…and yes, he defeated death and overcame sin…BUT, in the terms you are attempting to put it…its almost as if all one has to do is say “I believe in Jesus”…and thats it, thats all, no more, nada, nix, nein, nay. Por seguro!! Nope…not that easy. We don’t think for a minute that Christ failed in any way…its your total misunderstanding of Catholicism that tells you wrong things, or your “theological teachers”…were false teachers.

You say that our salvation is somehow flimsy like we are walking on a tightrope and that one small unconfessed sin is going to somehow spiral you down to hell.

You say… otherwise…but then again…your errors compounded and fed by your erroneous teachings regarding Catholicism have grievously misled you… While we believe that we have salvation as Christians, we are well aware of the fact that we can damage or destroy that right to heaven by our earthly actions while we are alive.

Jesus was succesful in defeating Satan on the cross, He did it! Praise God, we can now all be set free from sin and be saved.

By grace you have been saved, through faith… have faith in what Jesus did and trust Him!! When you talk about sin this, sin that… you aren’t trusting Him entirely… you are still relying on your own self efforts to try and earn your salvation. To try and somehow make yourself worthy of heaven. You can’t do it, you cannot do it by your own fleshy, sinful ways. Only Christ lived the sinless life and became the perfect sacrifice so that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! Salvation! Not by anything we did… or can do… but by the blood of Jesus.

Whoa dude…you really need to apply for that refund. You need to back up, regroup, punt or something… you’ve really got the cart out in front of the horse or something.

I don’t think you are reading the Bible…not at all. Sorry.

So why are you still not trusting God? Jesus died for you, and whoever puts their trust in Him will be saved. He who started the good work, can bring it to completion! Stop relying on yourselves, repent and believe the gospel.

Oh, I do trust God…and I am well aware of what it takes to reach Heaven…I believe the entire Bible…not just the part that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy…

Tell me…if you are OSAS, and you commit adultery, or murder, or any variety of other serious sins…without confessing those sins…will you still go to Heaven?

Don’t tapdance around the question…its a Yes or No answer.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

That was a perfect example. You turn to catholic writers for answers I turn to Gods word. I am not looking for your answers. You are turning to God’s Word. That is why he led you here so you can be exposed to it. If and when you drop you bias against Christ and his Church, the Catholic Church then and only then will you see Truth.
As for your statement that it is us and not our works study the entire doctrine Biblically of course on salvation. That is exactly what Paul is teaching and btw "there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"I SUGGEST you find a non catholic systematic theology course (should take about 2 years or so to complete and then study thoroughly all the doctrines of scripture. I SUGGEST you find a local Catholic Parish for instruction in Truth and doctrines of Scripture.

BTW It is not my denomination that is anti-catholic. I hold no denomination. I am a Christian and as such I am anti satan and therefore anti anything that he has corrupted including the cc.

Since you claim the title christian, then you are a member of the Catholic Church, but as separated brethen, and yes a donomination of the Church. You have separated yourself from the one true Church with Christ as her head to some degree since you are not Catholic becoming a denomination of the Church.

The portion of the Church that was corrupted is now called protestant or denominational, thru no fault of your own, I assume. You follow the tradition that you’ve been taught, not something you conceived on your own.

So if you are true to your word be anti protestant or anti denominational, anti-non-donominational if that makes you feel better, it’s still a denomination of the one true Church.

 

[RobHom]

What your first sentence states is very correct. Many non-Catholics are of the belief that anyone can interpret the Bible. Where I have found that argument to stop dead in its tracks and they have refused to respond to their claims, is when I have posed the question: If anyone (anyone being an all inclusive word) can interpret the Bible…does “anyone” include mentally retarded, demented, or totally illiterate persons? The silence after that is “deafening”. The simple fact is this…not everyone can interpret the Bible. I for instance am quite able to read it…and while I might ascertain a meaning from what I have read…I will not interpret it to someone else…because what I think it means and what someone else thinks could be worlds apart. The Bible is far from the simplest book to read. The entire premise behind the “Magesterium” and the Bible is that the “Church” is the final arbiter when there is dispute or disagreement on interpretation. Unfortunately the “inverse claim” is much like swiss cheese…as it is full of holes. Testing and proving the need for a “final arbiter” was established many years ago.

Were it not needed…we would not have so many different denominations, religions and sub-denominations/religions. Everyone would be in agreement, right?

You just did interpret it for everyone else.
I cannot speak on the issue of MR or DD people who cannot read scripture. I am sure that God can But I do know that everyone is born into original sin. Everyone and we are all sinners. Some of saved by grace and others not saved. Nowthe Bible has a constant directive to be in the Word and to kepp it in our hearts and to study to show ourselves approved and to guard our doctrine closely now what I do not see is to have the cc do this for me. where you do is beyond me

No. I did not interpret anything… you asked a question, I gave an answer. I did not interpret anything…don’t try to play games with words…you’re showing a human weakness when you try little things like that.

In order to see…you must remove the log from thine own eye, before you try to remove the mote from another’s, nay?

BTW…I am well aware of what the Bible says… and I do see the reason for the Church, and I see the light at the end of my life.

 

[geezerbob]

You said…
You seem to be basing your theology entirely on an erroneous interpretation of Paul’s writings and totally ignoring all that Christ said about what is necessary for salvation.

Did you mean what Jesus said or what the Church says? Because, apart from communion… I don’t see any of the Catholic sacraments in the bible, or the old testament way of sacrificing on the altar either… but I digress.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”

There you go brother, the simple gospel. And I pray you don’t wait for Judgment day before you find Christ, become born again of the spirit and a new creation so that instead of protecting Church doctrine all the time you can be out preaching Christ crucified like the apostles did.

Sir, your arrogance is exceeded only by your ability to dance. By what authority do you accuse me of not knowing Christ or not having been born again? Jesus said that the Father had appointed Him Judge of all men, not you. As for the dancing, you totally sidestepped my suggestion that you read what Christ said is necessary for salvation in Mt. 25:31-46.

I’m merely referring you to what Jesus Himself said, not defending the Church. Why don’t you try for an honest debate instead of twisting things around like you have been doing? In the meantime, I’ll pray for the salvation of your immortal soul.

 

[AliciaCL]

Brother, arguing against sola scripture is truly like tying to convince a member of the flat earth society that the earth is really a sphere! There is sooo many circular arguments put forth by the proponants of sola scriptura and indivudual interpretation of truth. The OSAS folks just can’t seem to begin a discussion with the the Catholic premise; they just deny it up front. How can abortion be moral and immoral at the same time? The question can be applied to a myriad of current issues. There is ONE truth. Does it truly make sense that God would leave us with a book 300 years after his son left earth, and intend that to be the final word on all things for billions of people for the remainder of time? Can you possibly argue he likes 30K+ christian churches that believe different things? They each find their truth? It is absurd. The entire concept of once saved always saved mocks the concept of living a good Christian life. Obviously, it’s difficult. If you’re saved why bother trying to be good? Apply common sense if you cannot see the plan in history and the bible itself. The CHURCH is what God left for us to remain on our journey to transform ourselves in a manner sufficient to attain a place in heaven. Once you get that, the rest of catholic theology flows more easily with study. I truly feel bad for those who have been raised in non-catholic teachings. The development of catholicism, with 2,000 yrs. of guidance of the Holy Spirit, is highly detailed and fairly involved theologically. It isn’t easy to grasp for a non-catholic. Converts often say it took them years to decide to convert. I am soo glad I was raised in RCC. It is an incredible gift. Would so like to help others but breaking through the 500 yrs. of theological barriers is really tough. Wishing you well on your journeys.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

AliciaCL has it right - having the fullness is a very profound truth for the Catholic Church. People separated from the one true faith can be well-intentioned, but it’s like they’re wearing blinders. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will act in their lives to give them the grace they need to embrace the fullness of truth present in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Arguing with them is really pointless, what we need to do is pray for them.

 

[whizkid43]

For the OSAS folks. In the Book of Revelation, Chapteers 2 and 3 contain the seven letters to the 7 Churches.

Here are some of the verses. Could you please provide your explanation of how OSAS is applicable ?

Revelation 2
Ephesus
5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Smyrna
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Pergamum
16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna.

Thyratira
19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Revelation 3
Sardis
2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Philadeplphia
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Laodicea
15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

 

[estesbob]

AliciaCL has it right - having the fullness is a very profound truth for the Catholic Church. People separated from the one true faith can be well-intentioned, but it’s like they’re wearing blinders. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will act in their lives to give them the grace they need to embrace the fullness of truth present in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Arguing with them is really pointless, what we need to do is pray for them.

They are like the man iin Plato’s cave. They perceive the truth as shadows dancing across the wall when all they have to do is turn around(embrace the teachings of the Church) and they will see the truth in full living color. No more verse wars, no more splintering denominations, no more dueling interpretations, just the truth.

 

[Bwsherman]

Wow…

So the Catholic Church should stop asserting that its conclusions drawn from the Scriptures (and Holy Tradition) are, in fact, the expressed Truth of a certain Scriptural passage…

…but the only people who are really fit to interpret Scripture and promulgate the Truth of Scripture are those of a select group of “regenerated” who happen to believe that “there is no interpretation of Scripture for [unsaved] people” (assuming, of course, to the criteria of OSAS).

Sounds like we’re trading the Magisterium of the Church for the Magisterium of Regenerated Me.

The sad thing about his interpretation of “unregenerated” people is that it isn’t even original. Maybe he should look up something called Gnosticism. The Early Church Fathers didn’t think too highly of that sort of reasoning then and the same Church those men belonged to states the same about those ideas today. Principally that it is heresy.

 

[myredeemerlives]

Yep heresy, perhaps the Catholic church could consider burning us.

You said.
Tell me…if you are OSAS, and you commit adultery, or murder, or any variety of other serious sins…without confessing those sins…will you still go to Heaven?

As a bible believer, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved. And I am over people thinking that because I follow the bible alone.

I’ve answered these questions elsewhere.

 

[Chris258]

The sad thing about his interpretation of “unregenerated” people is that it isn’t even original. Maybe he should look up something called Gnosticism. The Early Church Fathers didn’t think too highly of that sort of reasoning then and the same Church those men belonged to states the same about those ideas today. Principally that it is heresy.

I only have a superficial knowledge of the Gnostic heresy.

You’re comparing the Protestant idea that only “regenerated” people can interpret Scripture rightly with the the Gnostic idea that one requires a secret knowledge “gnosis” to really get what the Scriptures are saying?

If so, I certainly do see the fundamental similarity.

The thing is: those that adhere to that heretical concept would probably just accuse the Catholic Church of the same thing. Yet there is no issue of whether several bishops are “regenerated” or have “gnosis” during an ecumenical council. Some bishops might be swimming in heterodoxy, but when it comes to making the Truth known (in the Apostle’s Creed or dogma of Purgatory), the Holy Spirit doesn’t let man’s lust for heresy and heterodoxy get in the way.

 

[Chris258]

As a bible believer, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved.

And I am over people thinking that because I follow the bible alone.

Now that’s curious. Backfromthebrink claims the exact same thing, and he believes in “Once Saved, Always Saved”.

You can’t both be right. Now how do we decide which of you is really spreading God’s Truth?

 

[whizkid43]

Yep heresy, perhaps the Catholic church could consider burning us.

You said.
Tell me…if you are OSAS, and you commit adultery, or murder, or any variety of other serious sins…without confessing those sins…will you still go to Heaven?

As a bible believer, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved. And I am over people thinking that because I follow the bible alone.

I’ve answered these questions elsewhere.

Ok, you’re a bible believer (and perhaps this should be another thread).

Could you provide proof of the following in the Bible.

1. the Trinity
2. the complete list of books that should be in the Bible.
3. sola scriptura
4. sola fide

I intend no offense to anybody here the following question is presented to make to make a specific point.

If the Bible is self evident to all believers who’s correct, Oneness Pentecostals or Trinity Pentecostals? And why?

 

[Bwsherman]

I only have a superficial knowledge of the Gnostic heresy.

You’re comparing the Protestant idea that only “regenerated” people can interpret Scripture rightly with the the Gnostic idea that one requires a secret knowledge “gnosis” to really get what the Scriptures are saying?

If so, I certainly do see the fundamental similarity.

The thing is: those that adhere to that heretical concept would probably just accuse the Catholic Church of the same thing. Yet there is no issue of whether several bishops are “regenerated” or have “gnosis” during an ecumenical council. Some bishops might be swimming in heterodoxy, but when it comes to making the Truth known (in the Apostle’s Creed or dogma of Purgatory), the Holy Spirit doesn’t let man’s lust for heresy and heterodoxy get in the way.

I am stating that any person who believes that they have some sort of knowledge over the judgement of his or her own soul is falling under the same ideologies that the Gnostics held. This is what St. Iraneus had to say about the Gnostics in his work On Heresies:

1. But when we refute these people [the heretics] out of the Scriptures, they turn and accuse the very Scriptures, on the ground that they are mistaken or not authoritative or not consistent in their narrative, and they say that the truth cannot be learned from them by persons who do not know the tradition, and that that was not transmitted in writing but by word of mouth…"

It looks to me as though St. Iraneus was dealing with the same types of arguments that backfromthebrink is putting forth. So, back to my first statement…the argument isn’t even original.

 

[estesbob]

Ok, you’re a bible believer (and perhaps this should be another thread).

Could you provide proof of the following in the Bible.

1. the Trinity
   ?

Will the infamous Comma Johamen rear its ugly head again?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

OSAS defeated again
members.cox.net/humurabi/AreYouSaved.pdf

and again
members.cox.net/humurabi/Catholic_Apologia.pdf

 

[ckempston]

A thought just occurred to me: don’t Catholics still have to personally interpret what the church teaches them? I’ve done a bit of reading in the CCC, and it seems quite a bit more complicated than the Bible.

For instance:

Can. 210 All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

Can anyone seriously sit here and tell me that this could not be “interpreted” in more than one way? It seems to me that the negativity directed at “personal interpretation” of the Bible can just as easily be directed at “personal interpretation” of Church teachings.

 

[Filius99993]

A thought just occurred to me: don’t Catholics still have to personally interpret what the church teaches them? I’ve done a bit of reading in the CCC, and it seems quite a bit more complicated than the Bible.

For instance:

Can. 210 All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

Can anyone seriously sit here and tell me that this could not be “interpreted” in more than one way? It seems to me that the negativity directed at “personal interpretation” of the Bible can just as easily be directed at “personal interpretation” of Church teachings.

It just means that we should follow Christ’s teachings (which are the Church’s) and live out a holy life to the best of our abilities. (Everybody has their own weak points) That’s not “personal interpretation” but just common sense. No one person is the same, but God’s morals are absolute. And they are listed in the CCC.

 

[jesusluv]

“that’s just common sense” is exactly what any person with a strong interpretation of certain scripture will say when you ask them why they see it that way.

 

[Chris258]

A thought just occurred to me: don’t Catholics still have to personally interpret what the church teaches them? I’ve done a bit of reading in the CCC, and it seems quite a bit more complicated than the Bible.

For instance:

Can. 210 All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

Can anyone seriously sit here and tell me that this could not be “interpreted” in more than one way? It seems to me that the negativity directed at “personal interpretation” of the Bible can just as easily be directed at “personal interpretation” of Church teachings.

I think there is a notable difference between the two scenarios.

When one reads Scriptures and takes a stab at personal interpretation, there is no ultimate authority besides your judgement enhanced by hermeneutic studies (or even worse, the mere “warm fuzzies”). It is a living Word but dead letters on a page; it is simply a text, and a text cannot “interpret itself” because it does not possess a mind.

When in the arena of Church teaching, however, there is a mind present which does the interpreting. Church teachings are not simply letters on a page, but there is an authority to appeal to when attempting to discern an ambiguity, which is pretty much the same as how the Church handles interpretation of Scripture. There may be confusion about this or that statement in the Catechism, but the Magisterium is the mind behind it, and we can still appeal to that authority for clarity, granted it may take time for the answer to be declared.

Thus the question boils down to whether the Magisterium actually has this authority.

One can approach it in different ways. One might look at the fruits that result when the Magisterium is tossed out the window. If there is sickly fruit that results, then that should tell us that the Magisterium serves some kind of good.

---

It is true that one ultimately must make a fallible human decision which model to follow. However, that says nothing about which model was intended by God and says very little that is helpful about the human condition.

I can also fallibly choose not to pick up a gun and blow my brains out. Must the fact that the decision was fallible draw doubt on the validity of what I decided to do? Not really. This works both ways, of course. The fact that the decision to personally interpret the Bible was a fallible one says nothing about whether or not God intended it to be so.

Saying that humans are, in their natural state, fallible creatures doesn’t really move the discussion forward in the end.