“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[ckempston]

Thus, one simply returns to the original question.

Did Christ intend to leave a teaching authority composed of fallible humans that would be protected from error? If so, we must surrender our intellect to that authority, trusting, rightly or wrongly, in Jesus’ promise that it would not err.

Or…

Did Christ intend to leave an inerrant set of documents we would have to fallibly interpret, rightly or wrongly, in order to arrive at its Truths? If so, we must surrender our intellects to this authoritative document and try our best to interpret, rightly or wrongly, what it really is saying.

I admit that the former scenario seems more likely.

 

[Chris258]

I’ve read the Didache (not very long), and a lot of ECF writings, so I do see very early evidences of a more “Catholic” faith than what is practiced today among Protestants. I’ll see if I can get a hold of that book.

I like the 3-volume Faith of the Early Fathers edited by William Jurgens. You may have already heard of it or read it.

It goes from St. Clement and other pre-Nicene writers, past St. Augustine and to the end of the Patristic Period. It includes writings from Church Fathers, heterodox-adherents, and heretics. I’ve only begun to scratch its surface, really.

It’s very well-organized, very dense while being accessible to the reader who isn’t a scholarly historian, thanks to the index.

 

[ckempston]

I like the 3-volume Faith of the Early Fathers edited by William Jurgens. You may have already heard of it or read it.

It goes from St. Clement and other pre-Nicene writers, past St. Augustine and to the end of the Patristic Period. It includes writings from Church Fathers, heterodox-adherents, and heretics. I’ve only begun to scratch its surface, really.

It’s very well-organized, very dense while being accessible to the reader who isn’t a scholarly historian, thanks to the index.

I’ve never heard of it; it may be the same material that’s available at ccel.org. It has a large number of ante-nicene and post-nicene fathers’ writings.

 

[Bwsherman]

I’ve read the Didache (not very long), and a lot of ECF writings, so I do see very early evidences of a more “Catholic” faith than what is practiced today among Protestants. I’ll see if I can get a hold of that book.

It was not that they practiced a more Catholic faith, but that they were Catholic. Look at what St. Ignatius in his letter to Smyrna has to say:

“You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as to the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears let the people be there; just as wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

St. Ignatius was not just some man writing in the second century. He was the third bishop of Antioch and disciple to the Apostle John. He received his instruction from the ‘disciple whom Jesus loved’.

Not a practice brother but a reality.

 

[ckempston]

It was not that they practiced a more Catholic faith, but that they were Catholic. Look at what St. Ignatius in his letter to Smyrna has to say:

“You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as to the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears let the people be there; just as wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

St. Ignatius was not just some man writing in the second century. He was the third bishop of Antioch and disciple to the Apostle John. He received his instruction from the ‘disciple whom Jesus loved’.

Not a practice brother but a reality.

You’re nitpicking and arguing over semantics. I won’t dispute anything you’ve said here.

 

[Bwsherman]

You’re nitpicking and arguing over semantics. I won’t dispute anything you’ve said here.

I am not sure what you mean. I didn’t say anything to be rude. I really didn’t state anything myself. I simply conveyed what St. Ignatius wrote.

 

[ckempston]

I am not sure what you mean. I didn’t say anything to be rude. I really didn’t state anything myself. I simply conveyed what St. Ignatius wrote.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be rude either, but that was a bit of a terse statement I made. All I meant is that I wasn’t trying to make a theological point; I basically agree with you, and I have no problem calling those men “Catholic” in any sense of the word.

 

[Bwsherman]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be rude either, but that was a bit of a terse statement I made. All I meant is that I wasn’t trying to make a theological point; I basically agree with you, and I have no problem calling those men “Catholic” in any sense of the word.

Mea Culpa…

 

[Jimmy_B]

It was not that they practiced a more Catholic faith, but that they were Catholic. Look at what St. Ignatius in his letter to Smyrna has to say:

“You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as to the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears let the people be there; just as wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

was not just some man writing in the second century. He was the third bishop of Antioch and disciple to the Apostle John. He received his instruction from the ‘disciple whom Jesus loved’.

Not a practice brother but a reality.

Hello Bwsherman,

These are excellent remarks regarding Saint Ignatius of Antioch.

More Christians today, should read what he and other Catholic Saints, Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church have written.

Unfortunately, it appears that many Protestants today, experience a disconnect, when it comes to the Early Church (Catholic). Many today, reject their own Christian history and Christian traditons.

There are those who are members of the “Church of their own intellect” and want to have God on their terms and not God’s terms.

Me… me… me… me… me, has definitely crept into many Christian denominations.

Ego is man’s greatest weakness and humility is man’s greatest strength.

I pray for humility.

One cannot connect the “Christian dots”, without connecting the “Catholic dots”. It is this “disconnect”, which has caused much of the confusion, dissention and desertion that we see today.

Peace

 

[ckempston]

Hello Bwsherman,

These are excellent remarks regarding Saint Ignatius of Antioch.

More Christians today, should read what he and other Catholic Saints, Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church have written.

Unfortunately, it appears that many Protestants today, experience a disconnect, when it comes to the Early Church (Catholic). Many today, reject their own Christian history and Christian traditons.

There are those who are members of the “Church of their own intellect” and want to have God on their terms and not God’s terms.

Me… me… me… me… me, has definitely crept into many Christian denominations.

Ego is man’s greatest weakness and humility is man’s greatest strength.

I pray for humility.

One cannot connect the “Christian dots”, without connecting the “Catholic dots”. It is this “disconnect”, which has caused much of the confusion, dissention and desertion that we see today.

Peace

Very thoughtful post. Thanks for the reminder about humility. I certainly want God on his terms, not mine, whether it’s Catholic or otherwise. I obviously still have doubts and am undecided about what to do, since I don’t really fit in anywhere.

 

[Bwsherman]

Hello Bwsherman,

These are excellent remarks regarding Saint Ignatius of Antioch.

More Christians today, should read what he and other Catholic Saints, Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church have written.

Unfortunately, it appears that many Protestants today, experience a disconnect, when it comes to the Early Church (Catholic). Many today, reject their own Christian history and Christian traditons.

There are those who are members of the “Church of their own intellect” and want to have God on their terms and not God’s terms.

Me… me… me… me… me, has definitely crept into many Christian denominations.

Ego is man’s greatest weakness and humility is man’s greatest strength.

I pray for humility.

One cannot connect the “Christian dots”, without connecting the “Catholic dots”. It is this “disconnect”, which has caused much of the confusion, dissention and desertion that we see today.

Peace

Well, as the great Catholic convert Cardinal Newman once said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”

 

[cazayoux]

Very thoughtful post. Thanks for the reminder about humility. I certainly want God on his terms, not mine, whether it’s Catholic or otherwise. I obviously still have doubts and am undecided about what to do, since I don’t really fit in anywhere.

I’d say you fit in very well at the Catholic.com forums.
I’ve found your posts to be thoughtful as well as thought provoking.
It seems to me that you are doing exactly as you should and that’s anything but apathy.
Prayers to you, brother.

michel

 

[ckempston]

I’d say you fit in very well at the Catholic.com forums.
I’ve found your posts to be thoughtful as well as thought provoking.
It seems to me that you are doing exactly as you should and that’s anything but apathy.
Prayers to you, brother.

michel

Thanks. Some people I have had more “conflict” with, and I understand that, because I am arguing, but the point of my argument is to find the truth. I can’t be “corrected” unless I put my beliefs and perceptions out there.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

OSAS, Sola Scriptura and Personal Interpetation all go together to form the trinity of modern Protestentism. Sola Scriptura is closer to Islam than Christianity because they both believe the Book is the final authority.

 

[reteeks21]

OSAS, Sola Scriptura and Personal Interpetation all go together to form the trinity of modern Protestentism. Sola Scriptura is closer to Islam than Christianity because they both believe the Book is the final authority.

Wow. That’s a new one: comparing Protestants to Muslims. Haven’t heard that one yet. Way to go.

 

[ckempston]

Wow. That’s a new one: comparing Protestants to Muslims. Haven’t heard that one yet. Way to go.

Yeah, that one is a little out there.

 

[reteeks21]

OSAS, Sola Scriptura and Personal Interpetation all go together to form the trinity of modern Protestentism. Sola Scriptura is closer to Islam than Christianity because they both believe the Book is the final authority.

What is your basis for saying this?

 

[Chris258]

Wow. That’s a new one: comparing Protestants to Muslims. Haven’t heard that one yet. Way to go.

Concerning what authority most Protestants surrender themselves to, what are the differences and similarities between the authority of Scripture as Protestants see it and the authority of the Qur’an as Muslims see it?

I am terribly ignorant of the details of Islam as far as how the religion is organized. Are the imams followed by the great majority of Muslims as a teaching authority that authoritatively interprets the Qur’an and other matters of the faith (cf. the Catholic Magisterium) or are they simply a pastoral body? As far as Islam is practiced currently, does the individual Muslim see himself or herself as having the “right” to interpret the Qur’an?

masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/pislam.htm

I’ve found an interesting article describing how the faith of Islam develops. They call it ijma. In short, the entire believing community is supposed to agree on the faith matters, and there is no need for a hierarchical “priesthood” or appointed religious leaders. In fact, the article states that classical Islam celebrated the pluralism inherent in this idea.

I did not read the entire article, but what little I did was intriguing.
The author claims that with the introduction of Western thought, Muslim “fundamentalists” proclaimed that Islam was far too diverse and “untidy” and that it had no unity.

Of course, I’m not sure who is backing this author up. His opinion of things might be one of many.

Anyone else have thoughts on the similarities and differences between Islam and Protestantism? Or perhaps you can refer me to a thread?

 

[distracted]

. A non-Catholic once answered me that out of thankfulness for Christ dying and saving us, we stop sinning. The answer struck me as rather simplistic, nonsensical and impractical for God.

Doesn’t the whole Bible story from beginning to end constantly emphasis being good inorder to be transformed, which is ultimately pleasing to God and makes heaven ultimately able to accept you.

.

yeah, there is something about being conformed to the image of Christ… and that, obviously takes TIME and effort… something OSAS does not allow for…

 

[distracted]

OSAS, Sola Scriptura and Personal Interpetation all go together to form the trinity of modern Protestentism. Sola Scriptura is closer to Islam than Christianity because they both believe the Book is the final authority.

hmm… never thought ofthat before… but sounds valid.