“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

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JoeBlow said:
Like I said, what’s the point of discussing it when you’re just going to argue and when you don’t even know the difference between Christianity and cults like Mormons, JWs, and Unitarians?
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Oh, I know the difference, I was just trying to clarify what YOU meant by the term “orthodox,” because, like I said, different people use that word with mutually exclusive definitions. Catholics consider themselves “orthodox” in the broad sense of the term. Since you capitalized it, I had no idea whether you meant it as a general term, or as the name of a church, i.e. Eastern Orthodox.

So far, you’ve clarified that Catholics are not orthodox in your opinion, and neither are those cults. Why do you see a problem with clarifying what you mean? Or is it that you can’t clarify it because you have no concrete definition of what it means to be orthodox?
 
estesbob said:
The Mormonand the Jehovah’s Witnesses most certainly consider that some Christians.
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I’m sure they do. So do the people Jesus says will say “Lord, Lord”, but who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
They use the same Scripture you use and they have very different interpretations than you do.
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Actually, they don’t.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have what they call the “New World Translation”, which is not a translation at all, but simply a copy of the KJV with many key passages and words dramatically changed to reflect JW theology. In addition, they consider the words of their leaders to be on a par with inspired scripture.

Likewise, the Mormons have three books: The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

They get their doctrine from these books, not the Bible, and these books are given priority over the Bible when it comes to matters of doctrine and practice.

In fact, in regard to the Bible, a common Mormon saying is that “the Bible is only accurate inasmuch as it is translated correctly”.

While there is truth to that, what they mean is “inasmuch as it falls in line with these three books”.

In addition, they consider the words of their prophets to be the same as inspired scripture.
The same can be said for the Lutheran denomination, Baptist,Presbyterians Anglicans, Methodists, Church of Christ,The Seventh-day Adventists, and Quakers. How do we reconcile this
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We agree on the essentials and exercise the liberty that the Bible tells us we have to disagree over disputable matters.
 
JoeBlow said:
We agree on the essentials and exercise the liberty that the Bible tells us we have to disagree over disputable matters.
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What essentials would those be? Church of Christ believes that Repentance and immersion Baptism are necessary for Salvation. Baptists believe Baptism is merely a symbolic act of obedience with no salvic value and you’re saved when you believe. Pentecostals believe in “Baptism” of the Holy Spirit, which involves no water at all but a whole lot of speaking in tongues, which is the only “evidence” that you’re saved. I’d say those are pretty big “essential” disagreements.
 
JoeBlow said:
While there is truth to that, what they mean is “inasmuch as it falls in line with these three books”. .

We agree on the essentials and exercise the liberty that the Bible tells us we have to disagree over disputable matters.
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No you don’t. The Bapstists have a very different view on what is necessary for salavtion than say do the Presbyterians. Likewise Lutherans dont agree with the Baptists on OSAS,

Let me guess-Catholics dont meet your definition of “Christian”

By the way-are you related to backfromthebrink?
 
ckempston said:
What essentials would those be?
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  1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
  2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
  3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
  4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
  5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
Church of Christ believes that Repentance and immersion Baptism are necessary for Salvation.
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Which Church of Christ? As far as I know, only the Boston Church of Christ believes this.
Pentecostals believe in “Baptism” of the Holy Spirit, which involves no water at all but a whole lot of speaking in tongues, which is the only “evidence” that you’re saved. I’d say those are pretty big “essential” disagreements.
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit and credobaptism are two completely different things. Pentecostals do believe in credobaptism.

As much as I disagree with the doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I also acknowledge that it is a non-essential and would not divide with them over that.
 
estesbob said:
No you don’t.
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Actually, we do.
The Bapstists have a very different view on what is necessary for salavtion than say do the Presbyterians.
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How so?
Likewise Lutherans dont agree with the Baptists on OSAS,
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OSAS is a non-essential. As much as I disagree with their denial of OSAS, I would not divide with them over this.
Let me guess-Catholics dont meet your definition of “Christian”
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Some Catholics are Christians. Some aren’t.
By the way-are you related to backfromthebrink?
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I don’t know. What’s his real name?
 
JoeBlow said:
  1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
  2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
  3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
  4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
  5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
.
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Well those are core Catholic Doctrines. Surely there must be more than that or there wouldnt be so many different denominations.
 
Should they be shunned for not knowing?

IMHO, …if someone does not know we lovingly share with them. We do not apologise nor do we seek to be polite to the point of loosing our personal creditability. We lovingly strongly share.
 
JoeBlow said:
No, those are the only ones the BIble lists as being essential.
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You’re right that the Bible contains essential beliefs, but there is no list, AFAIK: I would say that the “essential” beliefs start at Genesis 1 and end at Revelation 21.
 
JoeBlow said:
  1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
  2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
  3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
  4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
  5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
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As has been pointed out, Catholics don’t seem to disagree with these, so there must be more.
Which Church of Christ? As far as I know, only the Boston Church of Christ believes this.
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I’m currently a part of the so-called “Boston Movement,” but the so-called “Mainline” Churches of Christ, and the Disciples of Christ, believe in Baptism by immersion for the forgiveness of sins (one of the things they seem to have right).
Baptism of the Holy Spirit and credobaptism are two completely different things. Pentecostals do believe in credobaptism.
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As much as I disagree with the doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I also acknowledge that it is a non-essential and would not divide with them over that.
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So you wouldn’t divide with them on an issue involving how one gets saved or what the evidence of salvation is. Interesting. Sounds like a free-for-all, to be quite frank.
 
distracted said:
backfrmthebrink: You are so far from being able to understand anythign scirpturally. All i see is the enemy having a hold on you. Truth. It is in God’s Word and the Church. I cannot help you to understand what only the Holy Spriit can choose to enlighten you about. Open your Bible and attend Mass and study to show yourself approved (and go to RCIA). I am saddened that you cannot yet see the turth. What is certain is that someday you will from one side or the other. I happen to know what side i will be on as the Bible and Christ’s Church has taught me that…
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IMHO, with respect to all others…I view that the Once Saved Always Saved is conviently missused and missapplied just as our confession is done the same way. What it means, once again, as I view it, is that once they are covered by the blood of Christ as they view it, Gods love and sacrifice is all encompassing and is never taken from them. Once they are “saved” they feel it is till they pass on. It has nothing to do with breaking commandments or living wrong and getting away with it. Some in their faith missapply it just as we have people that missapply confession thinking that you just tell a Priest (or worse do not have to confess) and have no recognition of the improper act, no idea on reperation, etc…

I am not Baptist. I am Catholic to the marrow of my bones and really like it! 🙂 All I can do is to master my own life, set achieveable goals, and “keep my own yard clean” so to speak.

Pax Vobiscum…

Don
 
ckempston said:
What essentials would those be? Church of Christ believes that Repentance and immersion Baptism are necessary for Salvation. Baptists believe Baptism is merely a symbolic act of obedience with no salvic value and you’re saved when you believe. Pentecostals believe in “Baptism” of the Holy Spirit, which involves no water at all but a whole lot of speaking in tongues, which is the only “evidence” that you’re saved. I’d say those are pretty big “essential” disagreements.
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EXACTLY!
The bible doesn’t list things as Essential and Non-Essential.
If the bible is the Word of God, Isn’t it ALL essential?

Denominations don’t even agree on WHAT the essentials are.
OSAS would be considered by many as an essential.

michel
 
The essentials are found in the bible here:
Genesis 1:1 to Revelations 22:21

michel
 
cazayoux said:
The essentials are found in the bible here:
Genesis 1:1 to Revelations 22:21

michel
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Ha, whoops, I said Revelation 21. Let me change that lest I be numbered with the condemned who add from or take away from the words of that book! 😉
 
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