“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[Filius99993]

i have been having 1 problem after another in the Church for years… was even tempted to leave a few times, something i never thought would happen to ME… (never say never)… Sometimes i think that the only reason i stay is… well, in a word, the Blessed Sacrament. I spend as much time There as i can… and it is SO real… more real than any human relationship… WAY… :heaven: :hug3: It is amazing all the evil in the Church but Jesus did say that we would be hated by all when we follow him… I wish more people would, as you seem to, take seriously the words of Scripture… Those who flip you [whatever] because you do are probably feeling convicted… God bless…

The evil isn’t in the Church, but in the people within the Church. Look at Biden and Pelosi… But the Church itself was founded by God and is always good. But all people are tainted. And those in the Church are still people.

 

[distracted]

Titus 3:5 states… “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us…”

Works do not save us and the Catholic Church does not teach that. But they are still necessary for salvation/sanctification.

If you accept Christ and then never do anything for Him… never pray, never fellowship with other believers, never do what he says in the Bible we all must do… you will eventually lose what grace you have and if you lose all of it, could end up in Hell…

If you are not living for Jesus, you are living for the world, the flesh and the devil… There is no middle ground. He said that we are either for him or against him.

Good works are necessary for an increase in holiness, without which it is impossible to please God. “No impure thing” will be allowed into Heaven. (Rev 21:27). Works are not done as a way to earn Heaven… Jesus made it so we could get to Heaven without having to earn or deserve IT… But we must be totally immersed in Christ in order to go (directly) into Heaven. And that involves working for him (not the devil or the world…)

 

[minkymurph]

Eternal Security

We are clearly taught from God’s Word that works are NOT essential to our salvation. Titus 3:5 states… “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us…” “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9).

We are not saved by works however that does not mean they are not necessary as James says faith without works is dead. We should be cautious of drawing conclusions from one sentence in a scripture. We can believe we are sinners in need of redemption and that Jesus died for us in a factual sense because it says it in the Bible. However Jesus asks us to live our faith which involves good works. Faith prompts us to action and if those actions are absent, we do not have true faith. Good works are a necessity not for the remission of sin, but a necessity of true faith. As Jesus said, branches that do not produce good fruit will be cut away. He also said ‘I was hungry you never gave me food, I was thirsty you never gave me a drink …etc you neglected to do this to one of the least one’s, you neglected to do it to me, and they will go away to eternal punishment.’ (Matt 25:31-44).

 

[minkymurph]

Please note that I am very conservative, to the point that I cover my head during church (since I take the Bible literally and all ). This was commented on negatively by two of the women at the Sat mass. There was also noticeable, almost non-stop talking during the whole service by some people and I won’t even get started on what others were wearing. I have been attending Baptist/Fundamentalist churches for 20 years so this was not what I expected (as well as it being completely opposite of the mass at the other 2 churches).

I have read your posts here and feel compelled to respond to you. Do not be anxious about the things that you have said here. If you are sincerely seeking God, he is with you and will take your hand. Remember that God does not expect more of us than we are capable of. That’s for humans.

I was brought up JW and am now Catholic. Therefore, I can sympathize with what you say as I too have had my struggles. I live in Northern Ireland where people who are complete strangers could probably tell you more about your life than you know yourself. I used to worry that JW’s would see me going to Mass and worry what they would think once my children started attending a Catholic school. That is no longer the case. My husband was raised Anglican but professes to be a heathen and feels religion is a scam and just a means to control people. He was really worried when I wanted to become Catholic as I developed mental health problems that stemed from the JW’s and he didn’t want that to happen again. He didn’t want our children baptized but they where, on my younger son’s first birthday, my older son was three and we had a quiet birthday/baptism celebration at the house. He didn’t come to the Church but he made the food for us coming back. I had no one to be Godparents and people I didn’t know very well and don’t practise themselves, offered to be Godparents as they knew I wanted my children baptised and had no one to ask.

I had a real struggle coming to terms with the Trinity, that Christ was God. I thought if this was really God, I wanted to believe it but I was afraid in case I was believing something that was wrong yet afraid not to believe it if it was true. I turned to the Bible and ended up more confused than ever. The first time I went to Mass on Good Friday, it really unerved me as the Priest carried a huge cross into the Church and people where kissing it. I felt it was idolatry. I can understand what you say about the way people dress. However I am not conservative and I found it a relief not to feel compelled to have good clothes and dress up. Not because I want to be irreverend but I felt God loves me for who and what I am and I don’t have to wear my best gear to prove myself. I sometimes think that dressing up is more for other people and image than it is for God. The JW’s are very image concious and I feel released from that. Having too young kids, it’s often a lot of hassle to get to Mass but I’m there irrespective of what I’m wearing. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with dressing well. I’m saying it depends why you do it and we don’t need to judge others who don’t.

I’ve been a Catholic now for six years and in September, I’m going to University in Belfast to train as a teacher of Religious Studies. I still have difficulty with organized religion due to my experience of life and many people understand that, but some don’t. I don’t know where my new course in life will take me but I believe God called me, even as a child, but I only saw that when I entered the Church.

Take your time. God does not compell you to go at a faster pace than you are capable of and as a Priest told me, things will come in time. When I was being catechised the Priest asked me to get a Catholic catechism to read about the profession of faith. I thought I had to read it all, understand it all and believe it all before I could become Catholic. The Priest thought that was funny but he said to me, if you believe the profession of faith, that is enough to be baptised, all other things come in time. God is with you and will reveal things when the time is right.

 

[ellammcg]

I have read your posts here and feel compelled to respond to you. Do not be anxious about the things that you have said here. If you are sincerely seeking God, he is with you and will take your hand. Remember that God does not expect more of us than we are capable of. That’s for humans.

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with dressing well. I’m saying it depends why you do it and we don’t need to judge others who don’t.

#1. Thank you.

#2. Actually, that was the least of my concerns. There was an overall lack of reverence and respect throughout the service. The other two Catholic churches had a much greater sense of holy reverence for the Lord.

 

[minkymurph]

#1. Thank you.

#2. Actually, that was the least of my concerns. There was an overall lack of reverence and respect throughout the service. The other two Catholic churches had a much greater sense of holy reverence for the Lord.

A lack of reference for God is the modern world for you. There’s really not a lot you can do about it other than attempt to instill a sense of reference in others by love. Jesus never promised us an easy life. Living the life of Christ has always been a challange; challanges today are just different. I have a friend who is a fundamentalist christian who I love dearly, but sometimes I feel like getting her by the throat and shaking her as to me, her beliefs are just so bizzare. However, she probably finds my beliefs bizzare which I can understand, and she is unlikely to respond to being shaken.

We all have the inclination to, for want of a better word, ‘judge’ a faith by it’s representitives which is why we are consistently dissapointed. It’s best to analyse the beliefs of that faith rather than look at how others practise it and ask yourself what is truth. If we ‘judged’ religious demoninations on the basis of the individuals who make up that denomination, I don’t think anyone would ever become a Christian! Best of luck in your journey and I have no doubt you will receive blessings, irrespective of how irreverent others are.

 

[distracted]

A, but sometimes I feel like getting her by the throat and shaking her as to me, her beliefs are just so bizzare.e.

is there any way you could persuade her to say the rosary?

A lot of my bizarre thoghts/ feelings were obliterated when i began to pray the rosary. In fact the rosary is what me a Christian (again)… One of my bizarre beliefs before praying the rosary was that God would not accept me back…

Weird because i had not had an abortion or divorced/re-married or used contraception… or a lot of other badthings… just didn’t think much of myself…

 

[keepitreal]

What about people who attend OSAS churches that are never exposed to the Catholic church? This really does happen, and in several cases, depending on where in the US you live. I grew up going to a Baptist church. I knew that the Catholic church existed, but I knew nothing about what it tought, and I saw it as another denomination. Then I viewed the different denominations(I included Catholics in this) as, some prefer choclate mikshakes, some prefer vanilla, I prefer strawberry…but we’re all drinking milkshakes…only the flavor is different.

I can’t even tell you where a Catholic church was located in my home town (maybe next town over?).

My point is, I don’t think OSAS churches are intentionally doing this in spite of the Catholic church, or in spite of what they know to be the truth, but instead believing this because they think IT IS the truth.

Should they be shunned for not knowing?

Yeah, this is what many ( I would dare to say most, especially is they’ve been through RCIA) Catholics believe today. “Every religion is just as good as another, there are many ways to heaven”.

The thing that gets me about this kind of attitude, is that if it’s true, why not pick the “easiest” one? Why pick Catholicism? It’s against artifical contracepton, homosexuality, you have to go to Confession, and Mass, you can only get validly married once, and can’t get married again till your ex dies, etc. etc. It’s so much easier to be “once saved always saved”, etc. Or an Episcopalian where anything goes.

 

[minkymurph]

is there any way you could persuade her to say the rosary?

A lot of my bizarre thoghts/ feelings were obliterated when i began to pray the rosary. In fact the rosary is what me a Christian (again)… One of my bizarre beliefs before praying the rosary was that God would not accept me back…

Weird because i had not had an abortion or divorced/re-married or used contraception… or a lot of other badthings… just didn’t think much of myself…

I have told her that I believe the rosary is a powerful prayer. She would believe that Catholics venerate Mary above Christ and has a lot of prejudices towards the Catholic faith. She was brought up brethern, I don’t know if anyone here is familiar with their concepts of belief, but now goes to the Free Presbyterian Church, if anyone is familiar with that. I have a feeling she may be being drawn to the Catholic faith but she has to see that for herself and as I said, she has a lot of prejudice to overcome. I would also say that in Northern Ireland, religion is closely associated with politics. My friend once said to me that she couldn’t become a Catholic because she’s a loyalist and asked me if I would be more of a Repulican now that I am Catholic. Sad, but that’s how a lot of people think here. She does have great faith and a love of Christ and I believe God will guide her in due course. God has a lot more patience and understanding than people.

 

[minkymurph]

Yeah, this is what many ( I would dare to say most, especially is they’ve been through RCIA) Catholics believe today. “Every religion is just as good as another, there are many ways to heaven”.

The thing that gets me about this kind of attitude, is that if it’s true, why not pick the “easiest” one? Why pick Catholicism? It’s against artifical contracepton, homosexuality, you have to go to Confession, and Mass, you can only get validly married once, and can’t get married again till your ex dies, etc. etc. It’s so much easier to be “once saved always saved”, etc. Or an Episcopalian where anything goes.

I’ve always wanted to ask, what is Episcopalian? I’ve never heard of it.

 

[ellammcg]

I’ve always wanted to ask, what is Episcopalian? I’ve never heard of it.

That is the religion I was baptized into at a few weeks of age. My Mother calls it “Catholic Lite”. They are a long ago offshoot of Catholicism. They split from the UK’s Church of England because of the Revolutionary War. They no longer believe the Bible is the word of God and they have women and practicing homosexuals as bishops. Their liturgy does have some similarities to Catholic liturgy, however.

 

[guanophore]

That is a very good point. I was asked by one of the teens if people who commit suicide go to hell. My answer was supposed to be “if they are saved of course they will go right to heaven”. The answer I gave was- “some Christian faith groups say yes, some say no. Do you really want to risk your eternal soul?”

You gave a good answer in a hard spot. I also must note, as one who has worked with teens for decades, getting asked such a question is a great honor. You are obviously trusted and valued.

I also just received my next quarters lesson books and there is some anti-Catholic (and false) information in there which I cannot teach. I have a feeling things will come to a head sooner rather than later, whether I want them to or not.

Yes, but that is just part of the process.At some point, you will have to bail out, I suspect. However, be assurred that you can use your skills in a place where you can also teach the fullness of the faith.

 

[guanophore]

Eternal Security

We are clearly taught from God’s Word that works are NOT essential to our salvation. Titus 3:5 states… “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us…”

Such a statement reflects a very small understanding of “salvation”.

The fact that our works are not the basis of our salvation does not equal them being unnecessary. There is too much scripture that speaks directly to the need of the Christian to do good works to separate them from our saved state.

Since salvation is by the mercy of God, people can be saved without doing a single good work. Jesus clearly illustrated in the parable of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard that those who come at the last hour will fare the same as those who come first in the morning. However, finding ourselves in Christ in the earlier part of the “day”, would we not be unwise to fail in doing works that befit repentence?

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9).

I am continually amazed at those who use this verse as a “proof text” for salvation, while failing to read on through v. 10.

Eph 2:10 " For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life."

The good works that are produced in us by and for His new creation are not separated from the grace that saves. The fact that they are not the basis of our salvation does not separate them from our salvation. Jesus saved us for the purpose of walking in these good works, which we cannot do without saving grace.

We are all Hell-deserving sinners! We do NOT have anything to do with our salvation except to receive God’s free gift by FAITH. Salvation is receiving; NOT giving.

It is very Catholic if you to say that!

Receiving the free gift of salvation means obedience to Christ, an that we walk in the way of life He has ordained. The giving of ourselves is our response to HIs grace.

Romans 4:5 reads, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” This is how Abraham was saved in the Old Testament (genesis 15:6). Acts 10:43 teaches that Old Testament sinners were saved exactly as they are today… “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Yes, The basis of all the good works by which Abraham was justified lies in grace, which is accessed through faith. God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Eternal life is a gift, paid for by Jesus precious, redeeming, literal, physical blood (1st Peter 1:18,19; Hebrews 9:12; Revelation 1:5).

John 5:24 states: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

—1st John 5:13

And that faith is a faith that works. It is a faith that obeys. It is not right to separate the nature of that faith from the grace that produces it. Persons that have this faith will bear fruit, and that is why it is not proper to separate good works from saving faith.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15-16

 

[guanophore]

Please note that I am very conservative, to the point that I cover my head during church (since I take the Bible literally and all ). This was commented on negatively by two of the women at the Sat mass. There was also noticeable, almost non-stop talking during the whole service by some people and I won’t even get started on what others were wearing. I have been attending Baptist/Fundamentalist churches for 20 years so this was not what I expected (as well as it being completely opposite of the mass at the other 2 churches).

You might wish to attend a Byzantine Liturgy. You may find it quite refreshing in terms of reverence, and find that you have stepped back in history at least 1000 years.

 

[Jimmy_B]

On some other threads here, my Protestant friends have requested that I ask specific questions regarding their beliefs. Here is a question, can anyone here please explain or defend this belief of, “Once Saved Always Saved”?

Thank you

 

[WindGirl]

It means that once a persons is truly saved/born again (I understand we don’t have the same beliefs on when/how that happens but that’s another thread), they cannot ever be unsaved or lost again. Just like physical birth. Once you’re born, you can’t go back in your mother’s womb and be unborn…again. I thought it was really self explanatory. OSAS means just that, once a person is saved they’re always saved. Some of us believe, iow, salvation cannot be lost. Hope that clarifes.

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[universalist]

no ,I,m saved every day when I arise and remember that I am BAPTIZED and confess with my mouth that 'JESUS IS LORD" and that I believe in MY HEART that ABBA raised him from the dead for MY sins AND THE SINS OF THE WORLD.now if I confess JESUS AS LORD then common sense dictates that I strive to follow his teachings daily( especially the SERMON ON THE MOUNT) knowing that often I fail miserably,but if I REPENT his precious BODY AND BLOOD cover my scarlet sins clean as fallen snow. IN CHRIST. AMEN

 

[minkymurph]

no ,I,m saved every day when I arise and remember that I am BAPTIZED and confess with my mouth that 'JESUS IS LORD" and that I believe in MY HEART that ABBA raised him from the dead for MY sins AND THE SINS OF THE WORLD.now if I confess JESUS AS LORD then common sense dictates that I strive to follow his teachings daily( especially the SERMON ON THE MOUNT) knowing that often I fail miserably,but if I REPENT his precious BODY AND BLOOD cover my scarlet sins clean as fallen snow. IN CHRIST. AMEN

Couldn’t disagree with any of this. I believe in the necessity of valid baptism, the need to repent of sin, the ressurection of Jesus who is Lord body and soul to heaven and that I have a personal relationship with him and strive to follow him. I would also believe that it is only possible to follow him by the infusion of grace as it is something we cannot do on our own strength and that following Jesus is not an individual experience but is experienced by communities who are held together in a communion of love by the Holy Spirit, and make up the Body of Christ.

I would also agree however with Windgirl. OSAS take us into pre-destination; those who are pre-destined cannot fall. I believe it is possible to fall and loose salvation by your own choice. I don’t believe God pre-destined certain individuals to fall and others not too.

 

[distracted]

I would also agree however with Windgirl. OSAS take us into pre-destination; those who are pre-destined cannot fall. I believe it is possible to fall and loose salvation by your own choice. I don’t believe God pre-destined certain individuals to fall and others not too.

St. Matthew 18:23 (if no other passage) proves that one can lose one’s salvation…

The person in the parable was totally forgiven, the debt wiped entirely clean but then because he failed to forgive his fellow man who owed a much smaller debt… he was “handed over to the torturers” until the debt (once written off) was paid…

 

[ellammcg]

This reminds me of a conversation with one of our church members a few weeks ago. His three adult sons have completely turned their back on the Lord. The one who hasn’t become agnostic has converted to a non-Christian religion. The father’s comment about his sons was this: “at least they’re saved and going to heaven”.