D
distracted
Guest
did you ask: How do you know?
People don’t realize it but this is “judging” just like it would be to say someone is going to Hell…
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People don’t realize it but this is “judging” just like it would be to say someone is going to Hell…
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ellammcg
Guest
No, because in ABA churches it is absolute church doctrine that if you were saved, you are saved forever no matter what you do (and you never even have to repent). I know from past experience that they get outright hostile if you question that belief in any way including telling you that you are not saved if you believe you must be faithful to the end).
BTW, I like your sentance on judging.
D
distracted
Guest
E
ellammcg
Guest
No, although I do attend mass during the week when I can and I recently purchased a Catechism.
ABA= American Baptist Association
G
guanophore
Guest
Do you think it is not possible for people to reject the Father’s will for themselves?
Scripture is clear that God wants all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, yet we know that all do not…
M
minkymurph
Guest
Question: if God pre-destined people not to fall, why was the sacrifice of Jesus even necessary? Why do they need that sacrifice and why do they need to believe in it if they were assured of salvation in advance of it happening?
Also, how does one know one is really saved? How does one know others are not? We can believe we are really saved and others are not but is it true to say that God’s eternal plan is something that is known unto God and no one else and only God can know for certain?
Also, how does one know one is really saved? How does one know others are not? We can believe we are really saved and others are not but is it true to say that God’s eternal plan is something that is known unto God and no one else and only God can know for certain?
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ellammcg
Guest
i just heard a pastor say today that you are not going to heaven (i.e. not saved) if:
-you believe in penance
-you believe there is any validity to the sacraments
-you don’t believe once saved, always saved
-you believe in penance
-you believe there is any validity to the sacraments
-you don’t believe once saved, always saved
C
Callin
Guest
So what happens if someone who believes in OSAS later rejects it?
If the pastor believes in OSAS, then wouldn’t that last point be a contradiction in this case? The person should already be saved, yet…not?
Or am I missing something?
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EVANGELION
Guest
Who was this pastor and what sect did he belong to?
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guanophore
Guest
Do you agree with this?
Do you know what he meant by “penance”?
Do you know what he things a “sacrament” is?
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
All good questions…
K
KingAlfred
Guest
OSAS is wrong-headed. One must *work *day in and day out for his salvation. A life of sacrifice, living devotion, self-mortification, and constant struggle to Christianize this tormented, crumbling world-society is mandatory. Kicking back, with one’s feet up, ‘chill’n in the crib’, all the while claiming to be ‘saved’ and ‘acquitted’ by just having read and recited some key passages in the Bible falls *way short *of a service to God and His People. *Is that how Jesus lived? *
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ellammcg
Guest
No.
To #2 and #3, I will have to ask him the next time I see him.
He is an ABA pastor.
I also need to ask him if he thinks that someone who once believed in OSAS but no longer does is still saved. (Of course, logically there is only one way to answer that question but you never know.)
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guanophore
Guest
While I agree that the Christian life is one of devotion and hard work, I think what throws our separated brethren is this characterization of “work for” salvation. I think it is more proper to use the biblical wording of “work out”. The reason I say this is because salvation is placed within us by the HS at our baptism. As we grow in faith, we work out what is already working in us.
Heb 13:20-21
20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21 **equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in you that which is pleasing in his sight, **through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
It is the grace of God, at work within us that is the Source of our labors
" Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do …"
Eph 3:20
Phil 2:13
“… for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
I think our separated brethren misunderstand when we say “work for”, because they understand salvation to be a free gift.
Rom 6:22-23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
They have been taught to think that 'works" are labors that come not from His spirit working in us to will and to do, but our own human labors to “merit” salvation for which we expect “payment” from God.
I think some of this misunderstanding can be corrected if we are cautious in our language, avoiding “work for” and focus on “work out”. I can’t say it will fix all the misunderstandings of Catholicism, but it will give us a head start.
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guanophore
Guest
I think this would be a good place to start. Most of our separated brothers that make such statements have a very different understanding than what the church actually teaches. They say that based upon their erroneous beliefs of what Catholicism believes and teaches.
One approach to take with “pennance” is the idea from the preaching of John the baptism. For Catholics, pennance means to bear fruit that befits repentance. We can see in the preaching of John many of the principles of sacrificial giving that inform penitential practice today.
I find the example of mud to be helpful with sacraments. Jesus did not need to use mud to give sight to the blind man. He chose to do this for a Purpose. He created man out of the dust of the ground,and He can create sight from that same dust.
However, the mud was a physical application through which He made His grace flow. When the man followed His instruction, especially washing in the pool, his sight was restored. In the same way, when we practice the sacraments as Jesus instituted them and directed, His healing grace flows through them.
I also think it is helpful to focus on baptism first. Most of our separated brethren have not been exposed to the Apostolic Teaching on baptism, and don’t even realize that their understanding of it is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.
E
EVANGELION
Guest
What’s an ABA pastor?
D
distracted
Guest
what prompted you to purchase the catechism?
E
ellammcg
Guest
American Baptist Association
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ellammcg
Guest
Short answer: OSAS, I couldn’t believe it any more.
Long answer: I was your basic anti-Catholic fundamentalist Baptist when our pastor encouraged us to learn our “true history”. What he meant by that was the landmark Baptist/Trail of Blood theory of Christian history. I researched it (and found that is an ABA belief, not just my pastors) and was aghast at how wildly inaccurate it was. So I started thinking, if Jesus established His church to remain until He returns, then what church has been around that long? Obvious answer is Catholicism. I grew up believing the Reformation occured because Catholics so badly screwed up the church that it was time for someone else to take it over. I am more Biblically literate now than I was when I was younger and I know that even in Israel’s worst depravity, the nation itself never lost the promise of the Messiah to be born from the line of Abraham and David so why would the church that Jesus personally started lose it’s place? Also, Martin Luther is not the saintly man I thought he was and most of what I thought I knew about Catholic theology was wrong. I read “Catholicism for Dummies” and was very impressed with that and I bought a Catechism afterwards for further research for myself and for my Sunday school class lesson. (I was supposed to give an anti-Catholic lesson but instead I just explained the difference between Catholic and Baptist beliefs.)
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guanophore
Guest
Actually, Jimmy, Catholics do believe in OSAS. I just got into this with an evangelical on another thread who was objecting to the Catholic understanding of sainthood. Catholics believe that our salvation is not attained until we have finished the race. However, for those who have finished the race, we DO believe that they are OSAS. They are forever in heaven with the Lord, and can never be separated.
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