“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

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guanophore said:
Catholics believe that our salvation is not attained until we have finished the race.
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What would be a better term for those who believe their salvation for all eternity has already occured? I’ve heard “security of the believer” but that doesn’t quite do it for me because I think believers are faithful and true so I would have to say I believe that if you die a believer, you will go to heaven.
 
ellammcg said:
What would be a better term for those who believe their salvation for all eternity has already occured? I’ve heard “security of the believer” but that doesn’t quite do it for me because I think believers are faithful and true so I would have to say I believe that if you die a believer, you will go to heaven.
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Besides ignorant? St. Paul refers to such an attitude as failing maturity.

" Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16
 
Personally speaking, who God lets into heaven and who he doesn’t is none of my business. If God wants to let someone who believes OSAS or a bad Catholic into heaven, that’s his perogative and if He does, he has righteous reasons for doing so. What God has asked me to do is follow him and live the Gospel, with his help as it is not possible without it. He didn’t ask me to ensure everyone else gets to heaven. That’s His job. You have to ask yourself therefore, why are some people caught up in ensuring someone else gets to heaven? The path to heaven usually means accepting their interpretation of scripture. I would say to that, if everyone can interpret scripture for themselves, why do you need to accept anyone else’s interpretation? To me, this is where OSAS falls down as many who believe OSAS also believe people can interpret scripture for themselves. Therefore, if you interpret certain passages of Romans in a different way to the way they do, why are you wrong and doomed to Hell? Why is OSAS the ‘right’ interpretation of scripture? Please no one say because that’s what it says as the Bible itself says that it is not meant to read word for word exactly as written and therefore needs interpretation.
 
Murph,

As always a highly intelligent, concise, and remarkably lucid analysis of the issues at hand.

I wonder, however, if you’ve never heard of the early Church doctrine known as the “Papacy of the People”. After having been suppressed by the evil Constantine who arranged for the take-over of the Church by the Romanist Papists, the concept, if not the term, was again brought to the light of day by the Heroic Reformers after some 12 centuries.

Since then we’ve had the benefit of having not just one, but millions of popes, all in complete harmony with each other, so long as they have the guidance of the right Holy Spirit, which they assure us they do. Just an interesting historical tidbit.
 
minkymurph said:
many who believe OSAS also believe people can interpret scripture for themselves. Therefore, if you interpret certain passages of Romans in a different way to the way they do, why are you wrong and doomed to Hell?
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That is an extremely valid point. What makes someone who believes in OSAS so sure they are right? Historical precedent? Majority consensus? God personally told them so? They are able to read better or are more intelligent than people who believe otherwise? :hmmm:
 
ellammcg said:
That is an extremely valid point. What makes someone who believes in OSAS so sure they are right? Historical precedent? Majority consensus? God personally told them so? They are able to read better or are more intelligent than people who believe otherwise? :hmmm:
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I think it is the burning in the bosom. 😉
 
ellammcg said:
That is an extremely valid point. What makes someone who believes in OSAS so sure they are right? Historical precedent? Majority consensus? God personally told them so? They are able to read better or are more intelligent than people who believe otherwise? :hmmm:
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there actually is some truth to osas in the sense that once someone has accepted Christ and been baptized in the Holy spirit… he probably isn’t likely to commit mortal sin (which i know protestants don’t believe in) and even if the person has a lot of venial sins… he won’t go to Hell… but this would be to admit to Purgatory, which most protestants do not accept either…

kinda strange and illogical if you ask me…

its like some people think that accepting Christ means saying goodbye to your brain or something… :rolleyes:
 
minkymurph said:
Personally speaking, who God lets into heaven and who he doesn’t is none of my business. If God wants to let someone who believes OSAS or a bad Catholic into heaven, that’s his perogative and if He does, he has righteous reasons for doing so. What God has asked me to do is follow him and live the Gospel, with his help as it is not possible without it. He didn’t ask me to ensure everyone else gets to heaven. .
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are you saying you are not your brother’s keeper??

are you saying we shouldn’t evangelize and give the truth to others??? :confused:
 
distracted said:
are you saying you are not your brother’s keeper??

are you saying we shouldn’t evangelize and give the truth to others??? :confused:
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If your asking me for a yes or no answer to ‘I am not my brother’s keeper,’ I would have to fall on the side of ‘no’ and I will explain why. No human has the power to decide the final destiny of other individual. Judgement belongs to God and God alone. Therefore, no human can predict the final destiny of anyone in advance; to do so would be claiming to know the mind of God which is why I stay away from predicting in advance the eternal destiny of individuals. In that sense, I am not my brothers keeper as I have no power over his/her final desiny irrespective of how much I evangelise.

I am not however saying we should not evangelise but consider how we evangelise. I do not believe in forcing truth on others who expressly state they have no desire to hear it. Neither do I believe in converting someone by means of clever arguement. A person who converts because someone else ‘beat’ them in an arguement and therefore they must conceed, to me not a true conversion. A true conversion is one that involves the action of the Holy Spirit. I believe that we ALL need guidance and that God does use individuals in assisting others in interpreting the leanings of the Holy Spirit in their lives, but not against that persons will. God respects the right of the individual to choose and therefore, so must we even if we believe they are choosing wrongly. Bombarding them with scripture and doctrine is not the answer in this situation as it becomes counter-productive as it can make others angry. If we evangelise by attacking anothers beliefs, even if it unintentional, encourages them to stick even more rigidly to what they believe irrespective of what you say. I also believe however that it is God Himself who creates that desire which is why we pray for others and leave the Holy Spirit to acheive what we cannot.

The purpose of evanglising is also to convert others to Christ, not to make others accept everything we say and make them into the kind of people we would like them to be. Debating scripture and doctrine is one way to evangelise; however it is not the only way. If debating scripture and doctrine becomes counter-productive, which it can be as it make others angry due to the perception that beliefs they hold dear are being attacked, it is obviously not working. I believe in evangelising by living the gospel and one of the best examples of someone who evangelised by living the gospel is Mother Theresa, who is quoted as saying, ‘live the gospel and if necessary, use words.’ I believe that quote originates with St Francis but I stand to be corrected.

Just like to end by saying this post is in answer to a question and is not directed at any individual on this particular thread. Just in case anyone thinks it is.🙂
 
guanophore said:
Besides ignorant? St. Paul refers to such an attitude as failing maturity.

" Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16
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“press on”

That is the key!
 
Jimmy_B said:
“press on”

That is the key!
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You need to know Christ and have faith in him ALONE to be your Salvation without co-mediatrixes or co-redemptrixes before you can press on. I’ll pray for you friend.
 
SIA said:
You need to know Christ and have faith in him ALONE to be your Salvation without co-mediatrixes or co-redemptrixes before you can press on. I’ll pray for you friend.
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So, is the idea of having females anywhere in our faith threatening to you? WE DO NOT WORSHIP ANYONE BUT GOD AND HIS ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST. You need to read up on the whys and hows we pray with the saints and Mary. You are listening to the propaganda of your church which has absolutely no truth to it. If you want to just attack other faiths, get your facts straight and ask yourself what your motivations are. WWJD? He wouldn’t spread lies to try and trick people into believing, he only spread the absolute TRUTH.
I’ll pray for you. :signofcross:
 
SIA said:
You need to know Christ and have faith in him ALONE to be your Salvation without co-mediatrixes or co-redemptrixes before you can press on. I’ll pray for you friend.
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Justification by faith ALONE implies no need to press on.
 
SIA said:
You need to know Christ and have faith in him ALONE to be your Salvation without co-mediatrixes or co-redemptrixes before you can press on. I’ll pray for you friend.
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Indeed, Jesus is our One Mediator between God and man. however, it was His choice not to be “alone”. He chose to be born into a family, to show us how important family is to us. He chose to create in Himself a family of all those in the New Creation. He made us members of Himself, and therefore, of one another. When we come to Him, we have many more fathers, mothers, children, etc. He made us all partakers of His grace, and enabled us to help one another into His Kingdom, to support one another on the narrow way. One who is in Christ is never alone, and there is no end of His own saints in whom we can rely for support.
 
seekdatruth said:
So, is the idea of having females anywhere in our faith threatening to you? WE DO NOT WORSHIP ANYONE BUT GOD AND HIS ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST. You need to read up on the whys and hows we pray with the saints and Mary. You are listening to the propaganda of your church which has absolutely no truth to it. If you want to just attack other faiths, get your facts straight and ask yourself what your motivations are. WWJD? He wouldn’t spread lies to try and trick people into believing, he only spread the absolute TRUTH.
I’ll pray for you. :signofcross:
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I think you need to keep these kinds of opinions of others to yourself. You have no clue what my church teaches, NONE! We absolutely pray with Mary and the Saints. I’ll pray for your lack of knowledge but abundance of arrogance and ignorance.:byzsoc: :bible1:
 
SIA said:
I said faith IN CHRIST alone. Should we have faith in someone else to be saved?
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You’re right, I had presumed that you may be of the un-Catholic opinion that one is saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. My apologies.
 
fhansen said:
You’re right, I had presumed that you may be of the un-Catholic opinion that one is saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. My apologies.
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The problem with the argument over faith alone and faith+works is the definitions of works. Works come with faith as does smoke with fire. The faith is the saver just like the fire is the burner.
 
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