“One,” Holy, “Catholic Church” Again?

[MrZetterlund]

Hi, as many of you know from reading my conversion testimony, I am a former Protestant Baptist who converted on the basis of, well, acknowledging I was wrong. In my testimony, (with very poor grammar skills,) I touched on how I saw having a pope is important to the Church (“Church” meaning, “the body of believers in Christ.”) I realized this because if there isn’t any authority within the Church that is outside of ourselves (or how we “interpret” this book to make you wrong,) then we become divided and nobody outside the Church knows what the heck we believe; which is a problem, because we are called to “Have no divisions amongst us, but be perfectly united with the same thought and same purpose.” (1 Cor. 1:10.) I found this wasn’t a problem within the “Catholic” (which ironically means, “universal”) Church, because the same doctrines that are taught and believed in one Roman Catholic parish are taught and believed in the next, because the Church, through Church councils and unchanging apostolic (“continual”) authority have always thought as One, and have always been One in communion as believers in the unity of the body of Christ. And I, as a truth-seeking Christian, saw that this authority and unity preserved many things lost to Protestant Christendom (which you may see in my testimony here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8492431#post8492431 )

I don’t mean to sound naïve (this thread is merely theoretical,) but I was wondering if perhaps there should be a council, and later a movement, within Christianity to re-unite the Protestant Churches (and the Greek Orthodox church) under the Papacy so that we may once again be “One” universal body in Christ (as far as the movement will unite us.)
I was thinking maybe we could present important doctrinal aspects to specific denominational leaders (the guys, who, I presume, assign pastors to specific churches in their denomination) and see if they would allow us to evangelize to individual churches to see if they would like to participate in the movement. I’d imagine the movement would have at least some appeal to their interest, since it would be in the name of Christian unity, which is Biblical and would probably make some Bible-enthusiast’s heads turn. Perhaps we could have some sort of orientation, and ordination for those pastors “on board” with the movement. I couldn’t help but realize when I left my Baptist church behind, that there are thousands of heart-filled Christians out there who are fully convinced that their church is the genuine Christian experience without the Sacraments. I was thinking maybe some of those Protestant churches out there could become sort of like (insert denomination here)-oriented, re-united pseudo-parishes or something (rural areas such as that which my family comes from don’t even have a Catholic parish.) If we created pseudo-parishes by confront individual Protestant churches with a movement of unity, this could possibly help the priest-shortage in our religion as well. Sacrifices may have to be made in negotiating doctrines, I’m not certain. I know some practices are sacred to the Greek Orthodox Christians. For example, Orthodox Christians poor water over the head three times instead of just once to perform a baptism. I remember an ancient manuscript cited be writer of The Fathers Knows Best that gave instructions on baptism including this practice. We may also have to take into consideration how we exercise the vow of celibacy. The infant Church actually permitted marriage for the clergy in the epistles of the Bible, the priestly celibacy is only a human tradition according to Catholicism for Dummies. It’s important to remember that this movement is for the sake of Christian unity and will help us in regards to the priestly shortage. And also, perhaps the movement should reach Muslims and Jews as well, since we are all of Abraham’s children by faith….

To those offended by the idea of being evangelized because some punk on CAF doesn’t think you’re “Catholic enough,” I’m sorry, but I have my beliefs for a reason and don’t withhold you from your own, and this IS only theoretical after all.

So what do you guys think? Sound realistic? Sound erroneous? Anything you wish to add or think should be discussed? Thank you, CAF. God Bless….

 

[MrZetterlund]

I think a more appropritate title for this thread would have been:

The Protestant Reformation Reformation. :manvspc:

 

[DJK100]

I don’t quite get what you mean by “pseudo-parishes” and how that would help with the priest shortage. Can you please elaborate. Also, eastern rite priest can marry.

I also think, and maybe you meant discipline rather than doctrine when your typing, but the Catholic church will not change her doctrine because that was revealed by God.

 

[chris62]

If only Mr Zetterlund, if only.

 

[MrZetterlund]

I don’t quite get what you mean by “pseudo-parishes” and how that would help with the priest shortage. Can you please elaborate. Also, eastern rite priest can marry.

I also think, and maybe you meant discipline rather than doctrine when your typing, but the Catholic church will not change her doctrine because that was revealed by God.

By “psuedo-parish” I mean former protestant churches that, by the consent of the congregation under the presentation of an enthusiastic pastor, agree to follow the movement and adhear to the authority of the Bishop of Rome to enter Communion with us.

And perhaps I mean traditions that aren’t Sacred, I’m not really sure… Perhaps “doctrine” was a bit too strong of a word, but yes, I think the doctrines should be safe, I just wonder how doctrine would play out regarding the Orthodox church. They’re pretty ancient, too.

 

[MrZetterlund]

and how that would help with the priest shortage.

OH, I FORGOT: I believe it would help our priest shortage if we, now stay with me here, ordain the pastors of the ex-Protestant churches and make them members of the clergy.

Like I said, we would probably have to have a “come as you are” policy rather than using the priestly celibacy -Most protestant pastors are married.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Since you’re new to the Church, have you been following the Anglican Ordinariate that the Pope recently created?

In terms of Ecumenism (which for the Church, the ultimate goal of Ecumenism is to bring other Christian groups into the Catholic Church), this has been one of the biggest developments since Vatican II. Sadly, it isn’t that big in terms of actual numbers, but I think it’s the biggest development in terms of precedence.

Basically, instead of Protestants having to convert individually, and join the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. Pope Benedict said that they could have Communion by keeping some of the traditions which differentiate their Church from the Catholic Church, and the whole congregation is welcomed into the Catholic Church.

Now… admittedly it is a lot easier to start with Anglicans, because their services were still very Catholic feeling. I’ve been to a lot of Baptist churches, and I think they are much further away from something like this than Anglicans, or even Lutherans… just because their services and beliefs are much more different from the Church than of those denominations.

As for the priest shortage, I think the problem is secularism. A lot of Catholics, just like a lot of Christians in this country are living mostly secular lifestyles. It’s a lot harder to discern the priesthood when you’re playing video games, instead of going to Church.

 

[jbarbaretta]

OH, I FORGOT: I believe it would help our priest shortage if we, now stay with me here, ordain the pastors of the ex-Protestant churches and make them members of the clergy.

Like I said, we would probably have to have a “come as you are” policy rather than using the priestly celibacy -Most protestant pastors are married.

Welcome home.

I, personally, think we are seeing the early movement of the re-integration of the various Christian ecclesiastical communities back into the Church. It may take a few hundred years, but it is starting to head in that direction. Given the history of the Church, a few hundred years really isn’t all that long.

There are groups like the Coming Home Network, that go out of their way to support protestant pastors that are leaving their current faith community and joining the Catholic Church. Unless they are Anglican, those that are married may only be able to serve the Church as a deacon. Many need to go out and find new work for supporting their family, yet they are coming by the hundreds. We as Catholics need to pray for them and help them in any way we can. That is a very difficult journey for anyone, but especially for Protestant ministers who know the end of the journey means, in effect, unemployment and finding a new career.

The Roman Rite tradition does not lend itself easily to married priests. The Anglicans, because their form of worship is so similar to Catholicism and in some cases entire Anglican parishes are converting, the Church is allowing married priests from the Anglican community. They have to complete their conversion and take (I think) 1 year of training/discernment to help ground them to serve as Catholic priests. Eastern rite priests can marry, it is possible that protestant ministers that wish to join the Catholic church and serve as a priest could join an Eastern Rite parish rather then a Roman Rite parish. But it would still be up to the bishop of that Rite to determine what the level of seminary the former ministers would need. It wouldn’t be as simple as baptizing them and handling them a black suit. They would need to do, in some cases a significant amount of, study to be able to fully serve the Church as a priest.

As for our Orthodox brothers, very little holds back a reunification. Theologically, we agree on all major matters of faith. The remaining issue is the primacy of the Pope. They are currently working out the concept of primacy internally within the Orthodox community, with the intention of being able to enter into discussions with the Church of Rome once they have a better handle on their stance based on scripture and their Traditions. I believe they also understand the importance of unity among all Christians and wish for re-unification as much as Catholics do. It will just take time to work out the details of what that will look like.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I doubt we can have unity with protestant communities because their respective theologies are very different from the Catholic faith. Sometimes it sounds like they belong to a different religion.

Hopefully we will be able to achieve unity with Orthodox Christians. I don’t expect to live long enough to see that happen but I am confident that it will take place in the not too distant future (a few centuries).

The opportunity given to Anglicans is a great example that things can be done when there is genuine desire for unity.

 

[Phemie]

OH, I FORGOT: I believe it would help our priest shortage if we, now stay with me here, ordain the pastors of the ex-Protestant churches and make them members of the clergy.

Like I said, we would probably have to have a “come as you are” policy rather than using the priestly celibacy -Most protestant pastors are married.

That has been happening for the last couple of decades, in limited cases, when a minister converted to Catholicism. Granted it was an exception to the celibacy rule, but there are Roman Catholic priests now who were ordained with their wives and children present.

At first this was allowed only for Anglican priests but it was expanded and recently a former Baptist pastor was ordained.

 

[JRKH]

Hi, as many of you know from reading my conversion testimony, I am a former Protestant Baptist who converted on the basis of, well, acknowledging I was wrong. In my testimony, (with very poor grammar skills,) I touched on how I saw having a pope is important to the Church (“Church” meaning, “the body of believers in Christ.”) I realized this because if there isn’t any authority within the Church that is outside of ourselves (or how we “interpret” this book to make you wrong,) then we become divided and nobody outside the Church knows what the heck we believe; which is a problem, because we are called to “Have no divisions amongst us, but be perfectly united with the same thought and same purpose.” (1 Cor. 1:10.) I found this wasn’t a problem within the “Catholic” (which ironically means, “universal”) Church, because the same doctrines that are taught and believed in one Roman Catholic parish are taught and believed in the next, because the Church, through Church councils and unchanging apostolic (“continual”) authority have always thought as One, and have always been One in communion as believers in the unity of the body of Christ. And I, as a truth-seeking Christian, saw that this authority and unity preserved many things lost to Protestant Christendom (which you may see in my testimony here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8492431#post8492431 )

Welcome Home…

I don’t mean to sound naïve (this thread is merely theoretical,)

Don’t worry about that. Some of the best ideas come from what initially seems naive.

but I was wondering if perhaps there should be a council, and later a movement, within Christianity to re-unite the Protestant Churches (and the Greek Orthodox church) under the Papacy so that we may once again be “One” universal body in Christ (as far as the movement will unite us.)
(Snip)

I certainly agree with your desire here and it mirrors my own that, for true Christians, there should be a strong desire and pull toward visible doctrinal unity for the purpose of protecting and spreading the authentic good news of Christ and the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately this seems to be one of the biggest dividers though.

I have spoken with many protestants who see no need for an authoritative visible church. These people hold to the idea of the “invisible church of all believers” and that visible churches and local communities will invariably contain both saved (invisible church members) and unsaved (those not members of the invisible church). Likewise the hold to the Bible as their ultimate and infallible authority and see no need for an authoritative teaching body (magisterium) in spite of the many and sometimes contradictory interpretation of the Bible.

In talking with our protestant brothers and sisters, I have found them quite resolute in standing by these two beliefs and they are quite unshakable. I have presented to them that the Bible calls for unity, such as you have mentioned in your post. I have presented to them both the instruction in Mt 18:15-18 to “Tell it to The Church” and “Listen to the Church”, as well as the application of that instruction in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Their answer is to interpret the passages so as to limit the application and/or authority of these things.
I have challenged them to provide equally clear biblical evidence for their view of “independent local communities” and the “invisible church” and have repeatedly been met with silence. Yet they hold tenaciously to their rejection of a universal, authoritative Church body.

(In response to such a discussion, I wrote a piece on this matter - that is HERE if anyone is interested. )

In short my dear friend, we have to recognize that there are very deeply held fundamental beliefs that would have to be overcome on a broad spectrum just to get many people to listen. Even then, the likely result would be that the non-catholic communities who invited you and were open to the idea, would likely split between those individuals interested and those adamantly opposed.
I recall a pastor who actually did something like what you propose…I forget his name…but he sought to return his church to the very early church model, and in his studies found liturgy and many catholic elements which he began introducing at his services. Eventually he knew he had to become catholic and spoke openly to his congregation. Half of them came with him but half did not…So - unfortunately in spite of our best intentions and desires, there will be those who insist on being Christians not in communion with Rome…

That said, Please do keep thinking on these things. From such ideas good things can grow. Perhaps not in the form we dream of or as quickly as we would like, but surely such desires are good and loving and will bear fruit, even if only on the individual level.

Peace
James

 

[pablope]

I think a more appropritate title for this thread would have been:

The Protestant Reformation Reformation. :manvspc:

Hi, Mr. Z…

There are discussions going on with Protestants and some of the Orthodox, these are just under the radar.

Someone had mentioned the Anglican Ordinariate…it is just getting off the ground.

There is also an ongoing dialogue with the Lutherans(am no sure which of the synods though) and the CC, and the Pope has a committee studying the early papacy with the Orthodox…one of the early steps for reunion with the Orthodox.

You have good ideas. My suggestion is to start small…in your own parish…start with a protestant denom that is open to dialogue…let us say with fellowships, lunch…but of course, inform your parish priest first…and maybe later, the diocese.

Remember the parable of the mustard seed? You plant that mustard seed at your parish priest…and with the blessings fo the HS…it will grow into a sturdy tree…or movement, I should say.

 

[manualman]

So basically all we have to do is convince a couple hundred million protestants that they’ve been wrong for 500 years and get them to come back.

Shucks, why didn’t I think of that!

 

[cerad2]

I’m just curious what the reaction would be if the Baptists hit upon the same idea unifying all Christians except of course they would want everyone to become Baptists. How would people react if Baptists started recruiting priests to their cause? I’m guessing that at least a few people would not be amused.

 

[jbarbaretta]

So basically all we have to do is convince a couple hundred million protestants that they’ve been wrong for 500 years and get them to come back.

Shucks, why didn’t I think of that!

You can make fun of it, but unity is an integral part of Christianity. We can’t be one body if we are broken into 300,000 little pieces.

Can we fix it? No, of course not. Leave it up to man, and things invariably get worse.

It may be beyond the power of man, but it is not beyond the power of God. The Holy Spirit can fix the mess we’ve made through our bickering and complaining and fighting. Let the Holy Spirit work through the Church, the whole Church including Orthodoxy and the various ecclesial communities of Protestantism, and great things can be accomplished.

On the other hand, since 1,000 years is like a day to God, don’t expect to see it in your lifetime. God works on His timeline. But, take a look at what’s happening. things are gradually moving in that direction. The more conservative high Anglican groups are starting to consider Catholicism as a more accurate representation of what they believe then the current direction of Episcopal communities. That is leading some to convert, including priests, bishops and entire parishes in some cases. Orthodox Churches hold no theological differences with Catholicism. We believe the same thing. There is only the question of the primacy of the pope left to deal with. Granted that is not insignificant and may take decades (or centuries) to deal with, it is none the less a single issue.

Trust in God and try not to look at reality based on simply what man can accomplish. Man can’t do much and what he does do, inevitably makes things worse. God on the other hand, gradually, almost imperceptibly moves men’s hearts and thereby directs the future. Pray for unification.

 

[JRKH]

You can make fun of it, but unity is an integral part of Christianity. We can’t be one body if we are broken into 300,000 little pieces.

Can we fix it? No, of course not. Leave it up to man, and things invariably get worse.

It may be beyond the power of man, but it is not beyond the power of God. The Holy Spirit can fix the mess we’ve made through our bickering and complaining and fighting. Let the Holy Spirit work through the Church, the whole Church including Orthodoxy and the various ecclesial communities of Protestantism, and great things can be accomplished.

On the other hand, since 1,000 years is like a day to God, don’t expect to see it in your lifetime. God works on His timeline. But, take a look at what’s happening. things are gradually moving in that direction. The more conservative high Anglican groups are starting to consider Catholicism as a more accurate representation of what they believe then the current direction of Episcopal communities. That is leading some to convert, including priests, bishops and entire parishes in some cases. Orthodox Churches hold no theological differences with Catholicism. We believe the same thing. There is only the question of the primacy of the pope left to deal with. Granted that is not insignificant and may take decades (or centuries) to deal with, it is none the less a single issue.

Trust in God and try not to look at reality based on simply what man can accomplish. Man can’t do much and what he does do, inevitably makes things worse. God on the other hand, gradually, almost imperceptibly moves men’s hearts and thereby directs the future. Pray for unification.

Amen…

Visible doctrinal unity should be a desire and goal of every true Christian.

Peace
James

 

[josephback]

. Sacrifices may have to be made in negotiating doctrines, I’m not certain…

Never! You don’t compromise with heresy for the sake of unity. That would be false unity:tsktsk:

 

[fred_conty]

We could try reformation2 for cafeteria catholics.

 

[HPM1984]

As for the priest shortage, I think the problem is secularism.

Me: I think it is the discipline of CELIBACY and that is all there is to it. No shortage of Orthodox Priests in the US, no Shortage of Anglican Priests, no shortage of Presbyterian Pastors. This “discipline” needs to be done away with the sooner the better!

 

[HPM1984]

Never! You don’t compromise with heresy for the sake of unity. That would be false unity:tsktsk:

I am a life long Protestant and part of the attraction of the RCC over the last five years is the Church’s willingness to stand by its positions on Traditions and Scriptures.

See my previous post on the change I think that must take place regarding celibacy- but this is only a discipline that the Pope could easily fix!