R
RyanBlack
Guest
Actually, a very significant number of Eastern Catholics (I believe a majority worldwide) follow the Julian calendar.
- Status
J
JoeBowen7
Guest
True. Of course, there is the old Julian calendar and the revised Julian calendar. However, of those Eastern Catholics (in union with Rome) who do follow a Julian calendar, how many believe that it is theologically incorrect to follow the Gregorian calendar?
P
Peter_J
Guest
I take it your point here is that Eastern Catholics aren’t as Eastern as possible. I guess I can agree with that.
M
Mickey
Guest
I don’t believe so…but what has that got to do with the title, “Orthodox in communion with Rome?”
P
Peter_J
Guest
P.S. In the Eastern Catholic Churches, there aren’t supposed to be any Latinizations according to the 1894 encyclical Orientalium Dignitas. Only in recent decades has this prohibition been taken to heart, i.e. Catholics stopped Latinizing the Eastern Rites and started re-Eastern-izing them. (I say all this by way of understanding the difference between ECs and WROs that Fone Bone is talking about – not that that’s the only difference between them.)
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The Ukrainian Catholic Church follows the Julian Calendar although the Gregorian Calendar is followed by some of the parishes in the diaspora.
The reason is traditional, not theological.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Peter - with due respect and consideration, the ECCs did not Latinize entirely by their own doing. In the same era as Orientalium Dignitas, other pronouncements came out of Rome that were quite contrary to its spirit in reality and effect. The ECCs have received mixed signals from Rome for many years. Post Vatican II thru today, there are more confirmatory signals on the whole, which has created an atmosphere allowing for the reversal of this trend. To be fair, there have been times where the pendulum swung far enough that the ECCs were Latinizing seemingly on their own as well, largely to be accepted as mainstream Catholics.
Some ECs (myself included) remain skeptical the Rome is fully supportive, especially with respect to matters of discipline. In my own particular Church, critics of the revised Divine Liturgy promulgated in late 2006 / early 2007 had some scratching their heads over how Rome could have approved. So it seems that the pendulum is still swinging, albeit perhaps in shorter strokes …
P
Peter_J
Guest
I agree. I’ve spoken about that before, but I don’t recall which thread it was.
M
Mickey
Guest
There was one instance where I wanted Rome to intervene and shut it down.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Oh, of course; I admit you’re right about that. The difference, though, is in their respective principles, their objectives.
Eastern Catholics are supposed to be as true to eastern - or oriental - Christianity as they can manage.
I do not get the impression that western-rite Orthodox are supposed to be as true to Latin Christianity as they can manage. The purpose, the goal, is different in each case.
And as others have pointed out, plenty of eastern Catholics use the Julian calendar. Only in countries like the United States, I think, are you likely to find an eastern Catholic parish that uses the Gregorian.
I respect our Orthodox brothers and sisters too much to consider this superstitious aversion to a calendar with theologically superfluous differences (i.e. mathematical ones) to be an inherent part of the faith of eastern Orthodox Christianity.
Yes, most Orthodox believe that continuing to use the Julian is the correct choice. But that is for practical reasons, and so I refuse to judge the whole by the negligible part that has a superstitious aversion to the Gregorian calendar. As if deleting thirteen days to fix math could in any way constitute heresy…
Nothing directly. As you pointed out and as I admit, an Orthodox Christian cannot accept that eastern Catholics are “Orthodox in communion with Rome.”
That is because they are united in faith with us Latins, though. I think the non-canonical Orthodox groups’ existence illustrates that lack of communion with canonical Orthodoxy is not itself a reason for regarding a group as non-Orthodox (i.e. heterodox).
As I fully acknowledge, though, that doesn’t give me any leeway to claim that eastern Catholics are “Orthodox” from your perspective… self-evidently, they’re not, just as we Latins are not. I admit this.
I think an even bigger difference is that western-rite Orthodox are not ecclesiastically distinct. Eastern Catholics either are or are supposed to be constituted into self-governing churches independent of the Latin Church. Western-rite Orthodox are, I believe, part of whatever eastern Orthodox diocese they reside in.
One may argue that that’s a more patristic model anyway - one bishop for one city/region, etc. - but whatever the case, it is certainly a pretty big difference with the eastern Catholic churches.
M
Mickey
Guest
We Orthodox are sticklers for tradition.
I am pleased that Holy Orthodoxy is on the same page during the Paschal season (revised Julian). But I pray for a day when all Orthodox return to the old (Julian) calendar for the entire Church year.
Oops…off topic.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Well, almost. The Orthodox Church of Finland (EP), the Estonian Orthodox Church (EP), and certain parts of the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia use the full Gregorian calendar (source).
P
Peter_J
Guest
Good point, Phillip. And, for the purposes of this thread, I think it would also be helpful to consider the reverse of Patriarch Gregory’s phrase (albeit less ambitious): “Eastern Catholic with a plus” – as a synonym for “Orthodox in communion with Rome”, in contrast to what I earlier called “just Eastern Catholic”, e.g. the Maronite Church.
The question then naturally arises, Is being “Eastern Catholic with a plus” better than being “just Eastern Catholic”? I would suggest that we cannot answer this question definitively, and that it’s really a matter of opinion. Some would see that “plus” as something positive, others would see it something neutral, and I believe some Orthodox would see it as something sinister.
M
Mickey
Guest
rebels!
M
Mickey
Guest
I was aware of the Church of Finland…rebels!
I am not so sure of the others. The link for the Estonian Orthodox Church shows they are on the revised Julian.
“Certain parts of the Czech Lands and Slovakia” is a rather vague statement.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Largely due to civic considerations ("bank holidays, as they say). Of course, having the day off on a feast day has not been proven to increase church attendanceI was aware of the Church of Finland…rebels!
I am not so sure of the others. The link for the Estonian Orthodox Church shows they are on the revised Julian.
That is the official name of the Church - Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.
M
Mickey
Guest
True. I have to take vacation days to attend Church for major feasts…but I can’t think of a better way to use my days.
“Certain parts” is the vague reference to the calendar. As you can see, I don’t give much creedence to wiki sites.
But I just noticed that their link also lists them as Julian and revised Julian.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
You are a good soul. I should have mentioned - I travel to Europe often for business. I have many friends and colleagues who are Christian. They would all tell you that they do not generally attend church services on these civic holidays that are given for Christian feast days.True. I have to take vacation days to attend Church for major feasts…but I can’t think of a better way to use my days.
M
Mickey
Guest
It is a very sad state of affairs. Secular humanism has spread across the globe like a virulent plague. If we could follow one basic teaching of the Church Fathers and keep it at the front of our thinking at all times…it would be a much better world. That teaching is: “Remembrance of death.”
The Churches would be filled everyday.
As of all foods, bread is the most essential, so the thought of death is the most necessary of all works. the remembrance of death amongst those in the midst of society gives birth to distress and meditation, and even more, to despondency. But amongst those who are free from noise, it produces the putting aside of cares and constant prayer and guarding of the mind. But these same virtues both produce the remembrance of death, and are also produced by it.
St John Klimacos
J
JoeBowen7
Guest
The American Ruthenians applied to Rome to lift the requirement of priestly celibacy and this was denied. As you know, in the East, married men are allowed to be ordained to the priesthood and many of the Orthodox priests are married.
So I see it as similar:
Western rite Orthodox are mostly western, but with a few Eastern influences.
Eastern rite Catholics are mostly eastern, but with a few latin influences.
In any case, it is wrong to call Eastern rite Catholics by the name: Orthodox in union with Rome, since they are Catholics and not Orthodox.
And it is wrong to call western rite Orthodox by the name: Roman Catholics in union with the Patriarch of Constantinople, since they are Orthodox and not Roman Catholics.
- Status