“The hour has come .... abandon the practice of Communion standing and in the hand”

[bobzills]

Again, the answer is that any non Catholic, even the SSPX can be given persimission by the Ordinary if he sees that its warranted.

This might be off topic from a discussion of communion in the hand, but since you have mentioned it, my only comment would be that it seems a bit odd that Protestants are allowed to receive Holy Communion and declared to be united to the Catholic Church, whereas those who adhere to the SSPX are said to be excommunicated and outside of the Catholic Church, in other words, they are barred from receiving Holy Communion since they are excommuncated from the Church?

 

[ethelzguy]

Not true. We have seen clowns and dancing girls at the Masses of cardinals in the Church. And who has been reprimanded or disciplined for a mariachi band Mass, a clown Mass, a Mass with Eucharistic servers dressed in Satanic costumes? Whereas the penalty for a black Mass, (correct me if I am wrong on this) was excommunication or at least a mortal sin, since it was explicitly satanic.

But, do these isolated incidents truly reflect the thousands and thousands of Catholic Churches in the world today?

“One bad apple don’t…”

 

[LilyM]

It is a big difference. Can you give me the name of one Catholic Church where was held a Black Mass? However, the clown Mass, the monkey Mass, the Satanic Eucharistic server Mass, the falling down and rolling on the floor charismatic Mass, the dancing girl Mass, the mariachi band Mass, the cowboy Mass, the Peter, Paul and Mary folk music Mass, the gay Masses in SF, etc., all of these were held in Catholic Churches.

I’d need to do more research on black Masses, however the Donkey Mass (properly known as the “Song of the A*s”, this was an actual saying of the Mass with a live donkey brought into church and ‘heehaw’ noises being substituted for the proper responses of the Mass) was definitely held in the church of St Stephen in Beauvais, France - source - as well as other towns (doubtless in other churches in those other towns).

Makes clown Masses look almost reverent by comparison.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I’d need to do more research on black Masses, however the Donkey Mass (properly known as the “Song of the A*s”, this was an actual saying of the Mass with a live donkey brought into church and ‘heehaw’ noises being substituted for the proper responses of the Mass) was definitely held in the church of St Stephen in Beauvais, France - source - as well as other towns (doubtless in other churches in those other towns).
Makes clown Masses look almost reverent by comparison.

I contacted the site you have, and was denied access. The book cover telling of this dates the book at 1931. Being that this was in France, I would assume (we both know what that does) that this was an incident that took place during the French Revolution. Priest were killed, Nuns raped and murdered, monasteries and Churches profaned. Without access to this, it would appear to be a chronicling of that time period. Much like this took place, but it was not of the Church, but those who wanted to do away with it.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[nannygirl]

JReducation:
The protestants are united to us, because they came out of the Catholic Church. They are the runaway children of the Church. Even when your child runs away, he or she continues to be your child. Even if he hates you, you still love him and reach out to him because you’re a good mother or father.

The Church attempts to reach out to her children like the Good Shepherd that leaves his sheep in search for the one that is lost.

JR

Beautiful! This point was shown to me when I visited an RCIA class as a Baptist and was key in my conversion.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I contacted the site you have, and was denied access. The book cover telling of this dates the book at 1931. Being that this was in France, I would assume (we both know what that does) that this was an incident that took place during the French Revolution. Priest were killed, Nuns raped and murdered, monasteries and Churches profaned. Without access to this, it would appear to be a chronicling of that time period. Much like this took place, but it was not of the Church, but those who wanted to do away with it.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

It’s amazing how these stories get twisted around. I’ve heard a lot of this exaggeration of tales or taking stories completely out of context and using them against the Church in the Protestant world where I came from, but when it happens within Catholicism against Catholicism itself, it’s very very troubling.

We all need to be more careful about what we put out there for all the world to see and possibly stumble on, especially conjecture or opinions that cast our faith in a bad light unnecessarily. There will be an account in the end.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Beautiful! This point was shown to me when I visited an RCIA class as a Baptist and was key in my conversion.

You and me both nannygirl. If all I had been presented with was this attitude that the Church was indifferent as to what would beckon me home and that this is how they saw God, I would never have been drawn; Love and Mercy are the keys to conversion.

 

[elt1956]

But, do these isolated incidents truly reflect the thousands and thousands of Catholic Churches in the world today?

“One bad apple don’t…”

Not true. We have seen clowns and dancing girls at the Masses of cardinals in the Church. And who has been reprimanded or disciplined for a mariachi band Mass, a clown Mass, a Mass with Eucharistic servers dressed in Satanic costumes? Whereas the penalty for a black Mass, (correct me if I am wrong on this) was excommunication or at least a mortal sin, since it was explicitly satanic.

Bobzills, not that I am doublting your word, but have you seen all these abuses at Mass? As I understand it, black masses are the biggest travesty and usually performed by Satanic cults.

 

[bobzills]

Bobzills, not that I am doublting your word, but have you seen all these abuses at Mass?

There are a few links to youtube that I could give, if you really want them, but it is probably off the topic of the thread? Also, yes, i did see some of these.

 

[bobzills]

I’d need to do more research on black Masses, however the Donkey Mass (properly known as the “Song of the A*s”, this was an actual saying of the Mass with a live donkey brought into church and ‘heehaw’ noises being substituted for the proper responses of the Mass) was definitely held in the church of St Stephen in Beauvais, France - source - as well as other towns (doubtless in other churches in those other towns).

Makes clown Masses look almost reverent by comparison.

Not really. The custom in question is the celebration of Mary’s flight into Egypt. A young girl with a child in her hands mounted a donkey and was led in a procession from one Church to another. There are different versions of the story, however, according to the version by Pierre Louvet, the procession and prayers were outside of the Church.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It’s amazing how these stories get twisted around. I’ve heard a lot of this exaggeration of tales or taking stories completely out of context and using them against the Church in the Protestant world where I came from, but when it happens within Catholicism against Catholicism itself, it’s very very troubling.

We all need to be more careful about what we put out there for all the world to see and possibly stumble on, especially conjecture or opinions that cast our faith in a bad light unnecessarily. There will be an account in the end.

After reading your post, I tried to enter the site again, and this time was given access. I don’t know why I was blocked before. The date of this predates the French Revolution and appears to be about the blessed Virgin riding the ***. While I find this out of the ordinary the way it was presented, it does not appear to have been done maliciously… so much for assumption.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[LilyM]

I contacted the site you have, and was denied access. The book cover telling of this dates the book at 1931. Being that this was in France, I would assume (we both know what that does) that this was an incident that took place during the French Revolution. Priest were killed, Nuns raped and murdered, monasteries and Churches profaned. Without access to this, it would appear to be a chronicling of that time period. Much like this took place, but it was not of the Church, but those who wanted to do away with it.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Pun fully intended, I hope

Sorry you can’t access the website - it refers to these things happening in 1697, so it’s naught to to with the French Revolution which was 90 years later.

 

[LilyM]

Not really. The custom in question is the celebration of Mary’s flight into Egypt. A young girl with a child in her hands mounted a donkey and was led in a procession from one Church to another. There are different versions of the story, however, according to the version by Pierre Louvet, the procession and prayers were outside of the Church.

The ‘prayers’ were in fact the prayers of the Mass with the responses replaced with ‘hee-haw’ noises - at least according to this source. What prayers does Louvet say they were?

Point being they were just as much a travesty of and abuse of the Mass, and just as sacrilegious, as if they’d been said inside the Church. Do you think Black Masses are OK if they’re said outside a Church? Would you think Clown Masses were OK if they were said outside a Church? They’re not OK in any setting, and neither was this.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’d need to do more research on black Masses, however the Donkey Mass (properly known as the “Song of the A*s”, this was an actual saying of the Mass with a live donkey brought into church and ‘heehaw’ noises being substituted for the proper responses of the Mass) was definitely held in the church of St Stephen in Beauvais, France - source - as well as other towns (doubtless in other churches in those other towns).

Makes clown Masses look almost reverent by comparison.

Too bad Balaam’s donkey wasn’t there, to reprimand them.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Jesus had no problem when his disciples took the bread by hand and ate it.

But of course Bishops and Priests should not discourage receiving the Eucharist while kneeling

Yes, I agree with this poster. I’m sure that when Jesus offered his Body to the Apostles at the last Supper, they didn’t stick their tongues out at Him, but accepted Communion in the hand.

Nevertheless, I agree that fewer abuses of the Eucharist would happen if all were kneeling and receiving on the tongue.

 

[JReducation]

After reading your post, I tried to enter the site again, and this time was given access. I don’t know why I was blocked before. The date of this predates the French Revolution and appears to be about the blessed Virgin riding the ***. While I find this out of the ordinary the way it was presented, it does not appear to have been done maliciously… so much for assumption.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Rev. Deacon I agree with you. We have to be careful about our assumptions. I’m Hispanic and we have a tradition that goes back more than 1000 years. Between Christmas and the old feast day of the martyrdom of the innocents, which has been moved and in many countries no longer clebrated, Mary is taken from Church to Church on a donkey trying to protect her child. The procession always served as the entrance procession for the mass during those days.

Today, because there is so much anti-Catholciism in so many places in Spain, the practice is preserved in the smaller villages, but no longer in the larger metropolitan areas.

There was nothing satanical or irreverent about it.

St. Francis introduced several elements into Catholic liturgy that were later generalized.

1. The live Christmas pageant at the Midnight Mass
2. The tabernacle on the center of the main altar. It was always on a side altar before that.
3. The use of a cross without a corpus in the parishes and chapels run by the friars.
4. The veneration of the cross on Good Friday. There was always the liturgy of the word on Good Fridays
5. The stations of the cross
6. The use of Italian music and Italian liturgical hymns and Italian poetry at mass and in the Divine Office in place of Gregorian chant in the friaries of the Friars Minor and the Friars Minor Capuchin
7. The use of only two candles at mass in honour of Lady Poverty.
8. At a conventual mass, if the superior of the house was not a priest he sat on a special chair on the side of the sanctuary as the Guardian of the community at worship.
9. To this day, many of the friars who are not priests have licenses to preach if they have the proper theological formation, as permanent deacons are not allowed in the Franciscan order.

St. Dominic introduced the three Aves at the end of mass.

St. Benedict introduced Gregorian chant only for use in the abbey. It later became generalized.

In abbeys of nuns, the abbess wore the pectoral cross and carried a crozier during mass just as a bishop, because she had jurisdiction over the clergy that served the abbey.

The Daughters of Charity had to wear a veil over their coronet to receive communion, because the coronet was considered a hat. I don’t think that the Daughters of Charity want to go back to that unsightly seen again. They looked spooky with thin black veils draped over the wings of the coronet.

The laity has to be careful before we jump to conclusions. Many exceptions have existed for hundreds of years due to other traditions related to culture or religious orders.

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thanks for the information on the background of this procession. The only fact you posted which I would question is St Benedict introducing Gregorian Chant. In the back of my mind, somewhere I have it that this was done by Pope Gregory the Great. St. Benedict was 5th Century ( I think ) When was St. Gregory the Great. I cannot find it offhand. I would have guessed after that.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for the information on the background of this procession. The only fact you posted which I would question is St Benedict introducing Gregorian Chant. In the back of my mind, somewhere I have it that this was done by Pope Gregory the Great. St. Benedict was 5th Century ( I think ) When was St. Gregory the Great. I cannot find it offhand. I would have guessed after that.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

The name Gregorian did come from Gregory the Great. He was the Pope who brought it out of the cloister into the universal Church. But this form of chant probably predates Christianity. No one really knows how it started. It seems to have evolved over many centuries.

It became the official form of praying the Divine Office of the Benedictines before it became part of the universal Church.

Like many different things, the Gregorian chant started as a seed.

It’s rather interesting, because if we visit an Orthodox Jewish synagogue we will notice that the prayers a “hummed” for lack of a better term. There was some form of chant in Judaism long before Christianity.

Considering that monasticism probably began with St. Anthony of the Desert, he may have brought the tradition over from Judaism and it evolved as monastic life evolved. There are many blanks in the ancient history of the Church’s liturgical traditions.

Does that make sense?

JR

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Some protestant faiths do believe in the true presence in the Eucharist. Certainly not all. That said, if the pope, the vicar of Christ on earth says it is ok for them to receive, I most certainly would not have a hard time with that at all.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

The “true” presence of Christ in the Eucharist is transubstantiation, the Body and Blood of Christ with only the appearances (no longer the substance) of bread and wine.
My Protestant friends tell me they believe in consubstantiation, which is the Body and Blood of Christ AND the substance of bread and wine. Don’t you think this is a problem?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The “true” presence of Christ in the Eucharist is transubstantiation, the Body and Blood of Christ with only the appearances (no longer the substance) of bread and wine.
My Protestant friends tell me they believe in consubstantiation, which is the Body and Blood of Christ AND the substance of bread and wine. Don’t you think this is a problem?

Yes. Consubstantiation to the Protestants means that they believe in the true presence, body and blood as you have asserted. But it also asserts that the substances of bread and wine remain. The difference is that as Catholics we believe in Transubstantiation, meaning that Jesus is present in the fullness of his body, blood, soul and divinity. The substance of bread and wine do not remain, only the physical accidents i.e., it looks and tastes like bread and wine but is no longer bread and wine. This we call the miracle of Transubstantiation. If a person does not believe this, only think of Creation. God created all that is, with a single thought. and is not subject to the laws of nature, which is his creation. Rather, creation is subject to him, the creator. Consubstantiation itself has long ago been condemned as a heretical teaching by the Church.

Prayers & blessings
Deacocn Ed B