“Time for another ‘Tra le sollecitudini’?”

[TheMc]

In a word, Yes. Share your comments.

Time for another ‘Tra le sollecitudini’?
by Aristotle A. Esguerra
Fr. Mark Daniel Kirby blogs about his liturgical experiences in Italy, which run the gamut, as to be expected in this day and age.

As one of those rare priests who frequently preaches on the proper chants of the Mass (may their tribe increase!), he has a particular sensitivity to their practical integration or substitution. (Here is his homily for Seventh Sunday of Easter, Year A (2005) as an example.) But he also has a particular awareness of Gregorian chant being the music of the Roman Rite before all else.

He closes his post by asking if it would be opportune for Pope Benedict XVI to issue a motu proprio on sacred music modeled on St. Pius X’s Tra le sollecitudini. Below are his seven proposed directives that he considers worthy of inclusion:

1. 
   *]The distinction between a Missa Recitata and a Missa Cantata is to be clarified, restored, and implemented. At every Missa Cantata, the priest celebrant is obliged to sing the salutations and dialogical elements, the orations, the Preface, the Per Ipsum, the Pater Noster, the Libera nos, the Blessing, and the Dismissal.
   *]At every Missa Cantata, the Gospel is to be cantillated according to the traditional tones provided in the Graduale Romanum and in the Missal. It is moreover fitting and praiseworthy that the First Lesson and Epistle also be cantillated according to the tones provided in the same books.
   *]The response to the Prayers of the Faithful will be one of those given in the last edition of the Missale Romanum, even when the intentions themselves are cantillated in the vernacular.
   *]The Ordinary of the Mass, including the Credo, is to be sung in Latin and in Gregorian Chant as given in the Kyriale of the Graduale Romanum, or in suitable polyphonic settings.
   *]The Proper of the Mass, including the Offertorium, is no longer an optional element, nor may it be replaced by any other chant or song. It may be sung in Latin as given in the Graduale Romanum, or in the vernacular, provided that the melodies used for vernacular text are derived from the corresponding Gregorian Chant and preserve its modal character.
   *]At the Missa Recitata, the Proper of the Mass must be recited. The Offertorium is to be restored to the Missale Romanum and to all the vernacular editions thereof.
   *]The Gradual Chant and the Alleluia are to be included in future editions of the Missale Romanum and the Lectionary, both in Latin and in the vernaculars, and are to be presented henceforth as legitimate and praiseworthy alternatives to the Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia of the current Lectionary.

 

[NewsTheMan]

In a word, Yes. Share your comments.

Yes, yes, yes and more yes. It needs to come. Of particular important (the thread about drums notwithstanding) is if we are going to continue with hymns in the OF we need to use approved hymns. I’m tired of sitting through “shine Jesus shine” and hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presence. Make 'em Catholic or make 'em gone. Not sure if this could even fit into a *motu proprio * of this kind but it needs to be done at some point if the OF is going to carry on.

 

[paperwight66]

. I’m tired of sitting through “shine Jesus shine” and hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presence. .

That’s interesting, Which hymns sung in your parish/church you attend ‘contradict belief in the Real Presence’ ?

 

[Usige]

Yes, yes, yes and more yes. It needs to come. Of particular important (the thread about drums notwithstanding) is if we are going to continue with hymns in the OF we need to use approved hymns. I’m tired of sitting through “shine Jesus shine” and hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presence. Make 'em Catholic or make 'em gone. Not sure if this could even fit into a *motu proprio * of this kind but it needs to be done at some point if the OF is going to carry on.

I would be happy if all hymnals were required to have both nihil obstat and imprimatur from a competent “ecclesiastic musicologist” for lack of a better term. Just like we there are recognized degrees in the practice of Juris Canonici and Sacrae Theologiae perhaps there needs to be a new set of ecclesiastic degrees for Sacrae Musicae with it’s own musical imprimatur. Only someone with an S.M.L. or S.M.D. could provide the musical imprimatur. No guarantees it would fix the issue, but at least there would be a recognized level of teaching about sacred music rather than OCP pumping out more of the same.

 

[NewsTheMan]

That’s interesting, Which hymns sung in your parish/church you attend ‘contradict belief in the Real Presence’ ?

I don’t have a Hymnal on hand so I can’t quote exact things. Almost every Sunday, however, there is at least one objectionable song. If I remember the song and words I shall report back.

I would be happy if all hymnals were required to have both nihil obstat and imprimatur from a competent “ecclesiastic musicologist” for lack of a better term. Just like we there are recognized degrees in the practice of Juris Canonici and Sacrae Theologiae perhaps there needs to be a new set of ecclesiastic degrees for Sacrae Musicae with it’s own musical imprimatur. Only someone with an S.M.L. or S.M.D. could provide the musical imprimatur. No guarantees it would fix the issue, but at least there would be a recognized level of teaching about sacred music rather than OCP pumping out more of the same.

A good idea. Unfortunately, just as nobody cares what the rubrics say or what the Church says anymore… it’s even more unlikely that they will care what the Church says with regards to songs.

 

[Usige]

Unfortunately, just as nobody cares what the rubrics say or what the Church says anymore… it’s even more unlikely that they will care what the Church says with regards to songs.

That is the crux of the issue. The liturgy has become a free for all based more on “feel good” personal preferences and damn anyone that tells me to do something that is opposed to my preferences. Without the support of the vast majority of the clergy a motu proprio on music would just be ignored like so much else. :crying:

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, I think it is time as it would make my job as a church musician much easier, especially when I do freelance work at difference parishes and dioceses. The problem would be getting certain clergy on board because we musicians can really only do as much as our bosses will allow.

 

[OraLabora]

In a word, Yes. Share your comments.

Time for another ‘Tra le sollecitudini’?
by Aristotle A. Esguerra
Fr. Mark Daniel Kirby blogs about his liturgical experiences in Italy, which run the gamut, as to be expected in this day and age.

As one of those rare priests who frequently preaches on the proper chants of the Mass (may their tribe increase!), he has a particular sensitivity to their practical integration or substitution. (Here is his homily for Seventh Sunday of Easter, Year A (2005) as an example.) But he also has a particular awareness of Gregorian chant being the music of the Roman Rite before all else.

He closes his post by asking if it would be opportune for Pope Benedict XVI to issue a motu proprio on sacred music modeled on St. Pius X’s Tra le sollecitudini. Below are his seven proposed directives that he considers worthy of inclusion:

1. 
   *]The distinction between a Missa Recitata and a Missa Cantata is to be clarified, restored, and implemented. At every Missa Cantata, the priest celebrant is obliged to sing the salutations and dialogical elements, the orations, the Preface, the Per Ipsum, the Pater Noster, the Libera nos, the Blessing, and the Dismissal.
   *]At every Missa Cantata, the Gospel is to be cantillated according to the traditional tones provided in the Graduale Romanum and in the Missal. It is moreover fitting and praiseworthy that the First Lesson and Epistle also be cantillated according to the tones provided in the same books.
   *]The response to the Prayers of the Faithful will be one of those given in the last edition of the Missale Romanum, even when the intentions themselves are cantillated in the vernacular.
   *]The Ordinary of the Mass, including the Credo, is to be sung in Latin and in Gregorian Chant as given in the Kyriale of the Graduale Romanum, or in suitable polyphonic settings.
   *]The Proper of the Mass, including the Offertorium, is no longer an optional element, nor may it be replaced by any other chant or song. It may be sung in Latin as given in the Graduale Romanum, or in the vernacular, provided that the melodies used for vernacular text are derived from the corresponding Gregorian Chant and preserve its modal character.
   *]At the Missa Recitata, the Proper of the Mass must be recited. The Offertorium is to be restored to the Missale Romanum and to all the vernacular editions thereof.
   *]The Gradual Chant and the Alleluia are to be included in future editions of the Missale Romanum and the Lectionary, both in Latin and in the vernaculars, and are to be presented henceforth as legitimate and praiseworthy alternatives to the Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia of the current Lectionary.

1. 
   Every single one of these edicts are observed at the abbey I am affiliated with, Saint-Benoît-du-Lac in Quebec, Canada. Everything is cantillated (in French), but the Propers and Ordinary are chanted in Latin Gregorian chant (Greek Kyrie). Lauds and Vespers are in Latin Gregorian chant; the other hours are cantillated in French but with Latin hymn. The responsory and Marian antiphon at Compline are chanted in Latin Gregorian chant. The Gradual is used, not the responsorial psalm, at the sung daily conventual Mass (there is a 6 am recited Mass typically for those monks who need to be away on official business that day or whose work will keep them away from the conventual Mass at 11 am). They faithfully follow the Graduale Romanum.
   
   Needless to say it is all very beautiful. And needless to say the abbey church is nearly full every Sunday even though the vast majority in the church have to drive 30 minutes or more to get to it. I’ve also been to our founding abbey in France (St. Wandrille) and it’s the same there too.
   
   Put on a beautiful liturgy… people will come.
   
   One point though, 5, may be difficult. French for example does not lend itself well to modal chant especially if the melody is very melismatic; modal psalmody in French is also very problematic. The Latin and French accentuation is completely different, and in Gregorian chant, accentuation of the words is very important to interpretation of the chant. That’s not the case for Italian, which lends itself better to modal chant.

 

[paperwight66]

Yes, yes, yes and more yes. It needs to come. Of particular important (the thread about drums notwithstanding) is if we are going to continue with hymns in the OF we need to use approved hymns. I’m tired of sitting through “shine Jesus shine” and hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presence. .

How are you getting on finding the examples of hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presnece that you promised us?

 

[Melchior_1]

How are you getting on finding the examples of hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presnece that you promised us?

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind hearing about which of these hymns denies the Real Presence. And please give more than just one or two examples.

And don’t say it’s because “the hymns were written by a Protestant”, because otherwise we need to throw out Bach, Handel, and Mozart.

 

[NewsTheMan]

How are you getting on finding the examples of hymns that contradict belief in the Real Presnece that you promised us?

Can’t be bothered, really. I’m not writing down hymns I sing on Sunday so that I can come home and type it all up so that you’ll approve of my posts. No thanks. If you don’t believe me, no skin off my back. Come to my parish one day, read a protestant hymnal, make a plan, you’ll see what I am talking about.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind hearing about which of these hymns denies the Real Presence. And please give more than just one or two examples.

Oh, you think that because no hymn ever explicitly denies the Real Presence that I am talking rubbish. I see why you’re both so confidently hounding me for examples. To deny the Real Presence doesn’t take explicit statements. Wording like “this spiritual bread” is enough. See my previous post though. I don’t care enough to “prove” it anyway. Won’t change a thing on my side, or your side. I made my post, I said what I had to say. Believe it, don’t believe it.

 

[Sarabande]

And don’t say it’s because “the hymns were written by a Protestant”, because otherwise we need to throw out Bach, Handel, and Mozart.

Off-topic and I won’t participate anymore into the off-topic subject, but Mozart was given a Requiem mass after his death and he, himself, through his letters and contemporary writings from the time, still considered himself a practicing Catholic to his death. Along with that, his affiliation with the Masons was well-known at the time by the Church and others, as many Catholic Austrians at the time were masons and he was not considered excommunicated by the Church at the time, thus being granted a Requiem mass to be said and post-mortem last rites. Although the initial ban on becoming a mason was many decades earlier around 1738 or so, it was not completely abrogated in all European countries. In Austria, it was 1795, three years after Mozart’s death, which was then Catholic Austrians had to stop their affiliation with freemasonry.

Whether or not he would be considered a “great” or “good” Catholic is another story and subject to opinion (Palestrina, whose music is held up with such a high regard for Catholic liturgy, was apparently not a very good Catholic and neither was Vivaldi, a Catholic priest, who also has differing opinions by historians about his “Catholicity”), but I think the Church, especially back then, would not have granted a Requiem mass and last rites had She believed he was not in communion with the Church.

 

[Elizium23]

Oh, you think that because no hymn ever explicitly denies the Real Presence that I am talking rubbish. I see why you’re both so confidently hounding me for examples. To deny the Real Presence doesn’t take explicit statements. Wording like “this spiritual bread” is enough. See my previous post though. I don’t care enough to “prove” it anyway. Won’t change a thing on my side, or your side. I made my post, I said what I had to say. Believe it, don’t believe it.

How about something like 'When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come again. ’

Don’t you think that denies the Real Presence?

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

What I would like to see is a straightforward document which would outline EXACTLY what the Church expects for liturgical music, and would have the teeth to somehow force hymnal publishers into compliance.

 

[Sarabande]

What I would like to see is a straightforward document which would outline EXACTLY what the Church expects for liturgical music, and would have the teeth to somehow force hymnal publishers into compliance.

This would be most ideal. It would also force/encourage composers and lyricists to use more of their creativity and talents to compose/write appropriate music within the established limits and rules.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind hearing about which of these hymns denies the Real Presence. And please give more than just one or two examples.

And don’t say it’s because “the hymns were written by a Protestant”, because otherwise we need to throw out Bach, Handel, and Mozart.

Mozart was a Catholic, just not a particularly good one, since he got involved with the Freemasons. I’d add Beethoven to the list since he was raised Lutheran, but devolved into something of an agnostic later in life; even still, he wrote a few Catholic Mass settings and the main melody of his “Ode to Joy” has been repurposed as a hymn.

 

[GangGreen]

Bump from the past, but I was just thinking about this. Was anything issued from the Vatican that ever went against Tra le sollecitudini? If not, why do we still see Masses with drums, guitars, pianos, and various other instruments? It even calls for all male choirs. I don’t mind female choirs, but most choirs today have very few men to begin with.

 

[MarkThompson]

Bump from the past, but I was just thinking about this. Was anything issued from the Vatican that ever went against Tra le sollecitudini? If not, why do we still see Masses with drums, guitars, pianos, and various other instruments? It even calls for all male choirs. I don’t mind female choirs, but most choirs today have very few men to begin with.

TLS is not applicable to the current form of the Mass. Even as regards the older form, in the six decades after it was issued TLS was modified by a variety of other decrees, most notably Musicae Sacrae Disciplina and De Musica Sacra.

 

[GangGreen]

And I assume no equivalent or similar has ever been issued since the current form was created?