~0% of US marriages valid?

[Luke-Jr]

Can’t seem to find actual statistics information, so this is all theory, right now… if someone can reference actual statistics for this, I’d appreciate it.

Basically, from what I have heard, the percentage of annulments is the same as the percentage of divorces.
Since the only requirement for a divorce is the desire to obtain it, this would suggest a few possibilities:

1. The only requirement for an annulment is to desire it.
2. All requirements for an annulment other than the desire are always met…
3. There are more Catholics desiring an annulled marriage (only some of which are granted it) than there are citizens desiring a divorce.

Unless the Church is granting bad annulments, #1 should be false. Hopefully, God would grants Catholics more (or at least, not less) graces than citizens in general, so #3 should also be false.
This leaves #2, which suggests that all Catholic marriages are invalid (the other requirement for an annulment). For the sake of not generalising, I’d say this “proves” (given the basis are all true) that the vast majority of Catholic marriages are invalid.

No, I don’t have any reason for this discussion/proof. It’s just something I thought of in my strange mind and I found it disturbing enough to post here… now, someone please disprove it

 

[stbruno]

chicagolandmarriage.org/marriagestatistics.htm

Thisis a great link, and will give lengthy information about marriages particularly in the Chicago area. Perhaps, this is what you are looking for. Check it out.

 

[Luke-Jr]

chicagolandmarriage.org/marriagestatistics.htm

Thisis a great link, and will give lengthy information about marriages particularly in the Chicago area. Perhaps, this is what you are looking for. Check it out.

That supplies divorce rates… now all that would be needed is annulment rates.

 

[stbruno]

marriage.rutgers.edu/default.htm

I haven’t completely searched this site, but maybe it has that information. Try it

 

[yochumjy]

Luke-Jr:

Can’t seem to find actual statistics information, so this is all theory, right now… if someone can reference actual statistics for this, I’d appreciate it.

Basically, from what I have heard, the percentage of annulments is the same as the percentage of divorces.

No, I don’t have any reason for this discussion/proof. It’s just something I thought of in my strange mind and I found it disturbing enough to post here… now, someone please disprove it

I have a better idea. Since you only heard it, and you have no proof, then YOU should be the one to PROVE it. Having us disprove every possible piece of hearsay you can find is silly.

We’ll be anxiously waiting…

 

[SnorterLuster]

Hey you may be right. My family is still trying to figure out how a cousin just received his fourth annulment. He is getting ready to have his fifth marriage. All four of his previous marriages were in the church, with three out of four wives being Catholic. He had children in two marriages. All we can figure out is he had something on the Archbishop.

 

[puzzleannie]

Because of RCIA involvement I have had dealings with tribunal members in two dioceses, one fairly liberal, one fairly conservative. In both there were more petitions turned down than granted, if you exclude those that were clearly invalid because of defect of form, disparity of cult without dispensation etc. the so-called “slam-dunks”. If you are talking about two practising Catholics with no prior marriages, and no evidence of being forced into marriage (pregnant bride, immigration issues etc.) the chances are quite high the petition will be denied, and persons in RCIA who are married to a previously divorced Catholic must be aware of that going in.

 

[Yonnie]

Luke-Jr:

Can’t seem to find actual statistics information, so this is all theory, right now… if someone can reference actual statistics for this, I’d appreciate it.

Basically, from what I have heard, the percentage of annulments is the same as the percentage of divorces.
Since the only requirement for a divorce is the desire to obtain it, this would suggest a few possibilities:

1. The only requirement for an annulment is to desire it.
2. All requirements for an annulment other than the desire are always met…
3. There are more Catholics desiring an annulled marriage (only some of which are granted it) than there are citizens desiring a divorce.

Unless the Church is granting bad annulments, #1 should be false. Hopefully, God would grants Catholics more (or at least, not less) graces than citizens in general, so #3 should also be false.
This leaves #2, which suggests that all Catholic marriages are invalid (the other requirement for an annulment). For the sake of not generalising, I’d say this “proves” (given the basis are all true) that the vast majority of Catholic marriages are invalid.

No, I don’t have any reason for this discussion/proof. It’s just something I thought of in my strange mind and I found it disturbing enough to post here… now, someone please disprove it

What about married couples who stay together for life and never seek an annulment? Shouldn’t the question be, “all divorced Catholics marriages invalid”?

 

[Luke-Jr]

yochumjy:

I have a better idea. Since you only heard it, and you have no proof, then YOU should be the one to PROVE it. Having us disprove every possible piece of hearsay you can find is silly.

The part I’ve only heard is the statistics. The part I wish someone could disprove is the logic. Besides, I have no reason to disbelieve the statistics I heard, just no references for them.

Yonnie:

What about married couples who stay together for life and never seek an annulment? Shouldn’t the question be, “all divorced Catholics marriages invalid”?

Nope. Marriages are either valid or invalid. An annulment is only granted after it has been proven invalid. If all marriages that are researched are proven invalid, that suggests that all marriages challenged will turn out to also be invalid.
An annulment isn’t saying “the marriage was valid, but now it’s not”; it is saying the original event never really took place.

 

[yochumjy]

Luke-Jr:

The part I’ve only heard is the statistics. The part I wish someone could disprove is the logic. Besides, I have no reason to disbelieve the statistics I heard, just no references for them.

Sorry, statistics that you’ve heard is hearsay.

Beyond that, who, besides Catholics get annulments? And percentage of what when talking about divorce and annulments. Is the percentage of all people in America getting divorced equal to the percentage of all Catholics getting annullments? We have no frame of reference for your remembered statistics.

 

[yochumjy]

yochumjy:

Sorry, statistics that you’ve heard is hearsay.

Beyond that, who, besides Catholics get annulments? And percentage of what when talking about divorce and annulments. Is the percentage of all people in America getting divorced equal to the percentage of all Catholics getting annullments? We have no frame of reference for your remembered statistics.

I just saw reference to civil annulments, which I didn’t know existed, what type of annulments were your source talking about? Church, civil, both? Again, without the source, we really can’t even understand the context of the data you say you saw.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Luke-Jr:

…This leaves #2, which suggests that all Catholic marriages are invalid (the other requirement for an annulment). For the sake of not generalising, I’d say this “proves” (given the basis are all true) that the vast majority of Catholic marriages are invalid…

This is a false premise. While it **may **suggest (not necessarily that it does suggest) that a majority of failed putative Catholic marriages in which one or both spouses have petitioned a Tribunal for a Declaration of Nullity may have been invalid, it does not address failed putative marriages in which neither spouse has petetioned for a Declaration of Nullity, nor does it address Catholic marriages that have not failed.

Any statistical analysis of marriage cases in which a Declaration of Nulity has been sought would also have to take into account that percentage of failed marriages investigated by a Tribunal (I don’t know what this percentage is) which were not failed putative Catholic marriages, but which have been investigated by a Tribunal because one of the former spouses later wished to marry a Catholic.

 

[ImperialPhoenix]

Eventhough I am still young and single. The thought about the annulment process is getting me a bit nervous, especialy if I do find the right girl.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

ImperialPhoenix:

Eventhough I am still young and single. The thought about the annulment process is getting me a bit nervous, especialy if I do find the right girl.

Unless you or your intended bride have been previously married and divorced, annulment is not an issue you need be concerned about. If you have been previously married and divorced, you might wish to have your marriage case investigated by your Diocesan Marriage Tribunal, even if you do not presently intend to remarry. Knowing your situation before you become seriously involved with someone (so you can know what relationships you may rightly pursue) can prevent heartache later.

 

[Luke-Jr]

yochumjy:

Beyond that, who, besides Catholics get annulments?

That’s one of the basis for this comparison. I am comparing percentages between legal “marriage” (marriage licenses / divorces) to Catholic “marriage” (marriages / annulments)

yochumjy:

And percentage of what when talking about divorce and annulments. Is the percentage of all people in America getting divorced equal to the percentage of all Catholics getting annullments?

A ratio of divorces/annulments to marriage licenses/marriages should be a good representative of the percentages.
Joseph Bilodeau:

While it **may **suggest (not necessarily that it does suggest) that a majority of failed putative Catholic marriages in which one or both spouses have petitioned a Tribunal for a Declaration of Nullity may have been invalid, it does not address failed putative marriages in which neither spouse has petetioned for a Declaration of Nullity, nor does it address Catholic marriages that have not failed.

Those are addressed in possibility #3. In both cases, those that have not failed would be the opposite percentage of those that have failed, so only analyzing failure % is enough.
Joseph Bilodeau:

Any statistical analysis of marriage cases in which a Declaration of Nulity has been sought would also have to take into account that percentage of failed marriages investigated by a Tribunal (I don’t know what this percentage is) which were not failed putative Catholic marriages, but which have been investigated by a Tribunal because one of the former spouses later wished to marry a Catholic.

In the case of an annulment of marriage not on Catholic record (eg, a civil marriage license), you have also pointed out that it will be an attempt of marrying to a Catholic. If the annulment is granted (and thus, counted in the ratio), the result will most likely be an added count to the number of marriages, thus rebalancing the ratio.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Luke-Jr:

…Those are addressed in possibility #3. In both cases, those that have not failed would be the opposite percentage of those that have failed, so only analyzing failure % is enough…

I don’t see that. Where are failed putative marriages in which no party has requested an investigation by a Tribunal represented? What basis is there to determine whether those putative marriages were Sacramental (valid) or not?

Luke-Jr:

…In the case of an annulment of marriage not on Catholic record (eg, a civil marriage license), you have also pointed out that it will be an attempt of marrying to a Catholic…

It might not be for reasons of attempting a second marriage to a Catholic. It could be for reasons of an adult convert to Catholicism desiring Holy Orders or religious life, or just wanting to know what their status is regarding their former marriage. But I think you may be correct that subsequent marriage is probably the most common reason.

Luke-Jr:

…If the annulment is granted (and thus, counted in the ratio), the result will most likely be an added count to the number of marriages,…

True, probably.

Luke-Jr:

…thus rebalancing the ratio.

False.

The premise is that 0% (or nearly 0%) of Catholic marriages are valid. While the non-Catholic marriages used for this example may indeed be judged invalid, they are still just that: non-Catholic marriages, so are useless in a statistical analysis of Catholic marriages.

The marriages that do matter are the subsequent marriages involving Catholics, which must be presumed valid and Sacramental unless and until they fail and are subsequently investigated by a Tribunal and found invalid.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Joseph Bilodeau:

I don’t see that. Where are failed putative marriages in which no party has requested an investigation by a Tribunal represented? What basis is there to determine whether those putative marriages were Sacramental (valid) or not?

If nobody makes the attempt to annul the failed marriage, they likely haven’t attempted a legal divorce either.
Joseph Bilodeau:

But I think you may be correct that subsequent marriage is probably the most common reason.

And probably common enough that statistically, it can be assumed for all cases.
Joseph Bilodeau:

False.

The premise is that 0% (or nearly 0%) of Catholic marriages are valid. While the non-Catholic marriages used for this example may indeed be judged invalid, they are still just that: non-Catholic marriages, so are useless in a statistical analysis of Catholic marriages.

The marriages that do matter are the subsequent marriages involving Catholics, which must be presumed valid and Sacramental unless and until they fail and are subsequently investigated by a Tribunal and found invalid.

That would be a different way of analysing the question. The approach I have taken here is that based on percentages of success in both divorce and annulment, we can presume that either the requirements for both are the same (or as hard to fill) or that the group with stricter requirements has more attempts.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Luke-Jr:

If nobody makes the attempt to annul the failed marriage, they likely haven’t attempted a legal divorce either…

Not true. The fact that someone, today, may request a Tribunal to investigate his or her marriage that ended in a legal divorce several years ago necessitates that had you examined this issue yesterday, this person would have had to be classified as person who had been legally divorced several years ago and had not sought an annulment. Today there may be many legally divorced persons who have not sought an annulment. Some may do so tomorrow, or ten years from now; others may never do so.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Not true. The fact that someone, today, may request a Tribunal to investigate his or her marriage that ended in a legal divorce several years ago necessitates that had you examined this issue yesterday, this person would have had to be classified as person who had been legally divorced several years ago and had not sought an annulment. Today there may be many legally divorced persons who have not sought an annulment. Some may do so tomorrow, or ten years from now; others may never do so.

Either way, it’s irrelevant whether the Catholic marriages/annulments are a subset of the overall licenses/divorces. The percentages are still the same.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Luke-Jr:

Either way, it’s irrelevant whether the Catholic marriages/annulments are a subset of the overall licenses/divorces. The percentages are still the same.

The only data that are significant are:

The number of Catholic Marriages (marriages in which at least one party is Catholic, or marriages between two non-Catholics in which at least one party subsequently becomes Catholic) entered into within a given time span, and possibly within other constraining factors, such as geography (you originally specified Catholic marriages in the U.S.). This set will include any marriages involving Catholics that were entered into contrary to the laws of the Church, and;

The number of those above marriages that ended in legal divorce as opposed to marriages that ended through the death of a spouse or marriages in which both spouses are still married to each other at the end of the analysis time span, and;

The number of those marriages that ended in divorce, and in which a Declaration of Nulity was sought and granted, as opposed to those marriages that ended in divorce, and in which a Declaration of Nulity was sought but not granted, or those marriages that ended in divorce, but in which no Declaration of Nulity was sought.

The suggestion that the percentages of Catholic marriages as they fall into these various categories is the same as overall marriages in these same categories can not be accepted as a postulate. The only way one could find out if these percentages really are the same is to do the analysis just for Catholic marriages within a given set of constraining factors, then do the same analysis for all marriages within the same set of constraining factors, then compare the results.