1.5 million Germans willing/considering leaving the Church

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Religion fits under personal ideology/philosophy. Everyone has one. Yes it should be taxed.

Your active presence on this forum is proof that your ideological views in the religious category have an impact on your life and on the lives of others.

If you were not a stamp collector, would you frequent and argue over the meaning of stamp collecting in stamp collecting forums? 🙂
Religion may “fit under personal ideology/philosophy”, but that is not obligatory, and no reason for taxing it. Ones thoughts should be ones own. The Tzars at one time taxed people for having beards; or maybe it was for not having beards; either way it does not matter if you consider it reasonable to tax people for either, both or neither; just tax them anyway you can. The more revenue the better, or why not just confiscate all their assets and be done with it?,
If all those Germans are leaving the Churches is it solely on account of taxes, or God-forbid,-might they be disenchanted with religion itself?
 
Religion may “fit under personal ideology/philosophy”, but that is not obligatory, and no reason for taxing it. Ones thoughts should be ones own. The Tzars at one time taxed people for having beards; or maybe it was for not having beards; either way it does not matter if you consider it reasonable to tax people for either, both or neither; just tax them anyway you can. The more revenue the better, or why not just confiscate all their assets and be done with it?,
If all those Germans are leaving the Churches is it solely on account of taxes, or God-forbid,-might they be disenchanted with religion itself?
Hi Wads42;


Happy Holiday Season, to you.

In regards to your comment,“might they be disenchanted with religion itself?” You should read a very good book, Benedict XVI: An Intimate Portrait by Peter Seewald, it might shed some light about that comment you wrote. Most, and not all, of the reasons for leaving a religion isn’t necessarily because some might be disenchanted with the religion - but the fact, that some young adults/ as well as old adults, doubt the tenets (religious doctrine) as being true or question their life’s path for them. However, in general, they don’t vent their anger against any religion, because the religion wasn’t the issue when they stopped believing in God, that’s atheism. If anything, when someone becomes disenchanted with a particular religion, they will search for the truth in another faith or they will search for God in another way, if it’s only about religion. A disbelief, can be in the government system, in the same flex - as some will elect new representatives - because people are becoming disenchanted with the politics in Washington; or some can be disenchanted with their martial spouse, and they think divorce is the only answer; a disbelief, or disenchantment, can be in a place you shop at and will discontinue shopping at that store - only to find another.

When a religion is replaced, its for seeking out another but with God, its a whole different ball park. This is what 1.5 million people will be experiencing, in some capacity.
 
Sarah,

I am glad you are posting here. Your posts are respectful. I am Catholic, may not agree with some of what you say, but you bring up nuances I had not considered on certain themes.
This past week the first president of the Czech Republic passed away. At the time he had taken his courageous stand against Communism, it was reported that he was either agnostic or atheist. But the way he described Christianity was so respectful, I sometimes wished we had more Christians like him. He had the heart of a poet/writer. But sadly, his kind of atheism is less common today. But I am glad you are here.
 
I don’t think the desire to abandon Christianity is limited to a tax. I know a German man who explained to me, albeit briefly, the attitude in Germany toward Protestants and Catholics.

He said there’s a strong desire to leave the Church because it failed to do anything meaninful during the Holocaust, and its also seen as an old structure that doesn’t always live up to what it teaches. Germany has a long history with Christianity thats full of the Church committing a lot of evils, and even though there are those Christians that do good, most Germans would prefer to be “spirtual” rather than affiliate with any Church.

Those are his words paraphrased. He also never mentioned the tax.
 
Religion fits under personal ideology/philosophy. Everyone has one. Yes it should be taxed.
This misses the point of the church tax (this is a subject I was not familiar with until this thread).

The church tax goes to the institutions, in order to support them. Essentially the brick mortar, books, incense, telephone bills … whatever expenses the communities have as intitutions are paid with this money. It is a substitute for the old medieval system where the local lords, princes and kings once supported the churches (called a living or benefice in England).

This following is a portion of the Wikipedia article, focusing on Germany, in actually the article states the church tax is applied in many European countries.

Germany

About 70% of church revenues come from church tax. This is about 8.5 billion (in 2002). Article 137 of the Weimar Constitution of 1919 and article 140 of the German Basic Law of 1949 are the legal basis for this practice.

In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either
  • require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or
  • choose to collect the church tax themselves.
In the first case, membership in the community is entered onto a tax document (Lohnsteuerkarte) which employees must surrender to their employers for the purpose of withholding tax on paid income. If membership in a tax-collecting religious community is entered on the document, the employer must withhold church tax prepayments from the income of the employee in addition to other tax prepayments. In connection with the final annual income tax assessment, the state revenue authorities also finally assess the church tax owed. In the case of self-employed persons or of unemployed taxpayers, state revenue authorities collect prepayments on the church tax together with prepayments on the income tax.

If, however, religious communities choose to collect church tax themselves, they may demand that the tax authorities reveal taxation data of their members to calculate the contributions and prepayments owed. In particular, some smaller communities (e.g. the Jewish Community of Berlin) choose to collect taxes themselves to save collection fees the government would charge otherwise.

Collection of church tax may be used to cover any church-related expenses such as founding institutions and foundations or paying ministers.

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

This is a service provided by the state, in a sense voluntary, which started long before we had such banking marvels as Direct Deposit and Automated Withdrawal to support our favorite causes. As it stands the rates are not up to traditional tithing (10%), but that might be the idea.

Obviously, if atheists have no public institutions requiring support, there will be no such tax, and if they did have such an institution (and the group qualified for the government program) they would still have the right to opt out and collect their support from members directly.
 
:D:D:D

Possibly the most silly post I’ve ever read on any forum, ever 😃

You think atheists and agnostics should be taxed for NOT having a belief in a God or gods

:rotfl:

So my thoughts should be taxed :eek:

If atheism is a belief, not collecting stamps is a hobby :rotfl:

Sarah x 🙂
Not only religon but athiesm also to be seperated from the sate. Atheism is also another kind of belief, that there is no God. Ok I accept, a person have the right to belive in God or Not to Belive…That is your individual freedom…

In my opinion all people have some type of belief… Either in religons , or athiesm. A secular society must take a neutral stand regarding all faith , including athiesm… But what happening in the western communities is that under the banner of secularism , officialy teaching athiest ideologies through Govt institutions, Educational institutions, medias.

**Athiesm is also a type of belief… A belief in the non exsistance of God…
**
Many of the Europeans and americans does not know from where these atheism comes from… But as an Asian (Indian ) , I know where these comes from. Many of the beilefs of european athiesm is similar to charvakanism which originated in india in 6th Century BC…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka

Rise of Hinduism (a faith strongly belives in the exsistance of God) caused the decline of Charvakanism.
 
As per christian beleif one tenth of the income of a person is right of God. It is the duty of a person to give his share (one tenth of his income) for God. He should give his share to church…It is his duty and not his favor. If a person who does not giving his tenth share he is cheating God.

“Can a man deceive God? Yet you cheat me and moreover ask: “How did we cheat you?” I point out your sacred tributes and the tenth which is due to me. Cursed be you who cheat me! Cursed be all the nation. Turn over into the temple treasury the tenth part of all, that there may be food in my House. Then you may test me says Yahweh of hosts, to see if I will not open the gates of heaven and bring blessed rain to you up to the last drop.I will rebuke the locusts that they may not devour your fields, and let not the vines wither in your land, says Yahweh. Then all the nations will congratulate you because your land will be the choicest” Malachi 3: 8-12.

I know lot of charismatics and evangelicals paying one tenth portion of his income to religious institutions and churches.

It is not done through compulsory laws… It should come from one’s free will. If a person or society which does not have faith in God , sees these things as a burden.

Church requires money for meeting its day today expense . But raising money through tax is not correct, especially in a faithless society.

Most of the non christians religions collects its revenue for running a temple or mosque through offerings. In hindu and buddhist temples there are various types of revenue sources to them such as various offerings (Flower, Oil ,Candles etc), intention prayers, sacred foods…For all these devotees pays cash…They are paying these from their free will and devotion to God. Some temples have agricultural lands and small shop buildings given for rent.

Likewise catholic churches in India have additional source of incomes apart from the offerings during mass time… Most have agricultural lands, Parish halls ( giving for rent to parish members and others for conducting their personal receptions of marriage , baptism or any other personal functions), Gets incomes through various offerings such as Candles, Oils, Novena’s. People purchase these candles and oils from church stores for blessing. It is a source of income to church also.

Some churches have small shop buildings, given for rent. It is also a good source of income to church.

So that all churches are self dependent in the matter of revenue. There is no need for going behind persons for donations for conducting a small function in parish.
 
:D:D:D

Possibly the most silly post I’ve ever read on any forum, ever 😃

You think atheists and agnostics should be taxed for NOT having a belief in a God or gods

:rotfl:

So my thoughts should be taxed :eek:

If atheism is a belief, not collecting stamps is a hobby :rotfl:

Sarah x 🙂
Please dont divert my post from its original meaning. Dont give any new meaning for my posts.I didn’t told that one’s thought’s should be taxed. What I meant is that, no person is free from any kind of belief. Nobody is in this world with empty mind. Either he is a beliver in any religion, or athiest or agnostic…If a person is taxed based on his religious belief, then athiests are also to be taxed because it is also a type of belief ( Belief in non existence of God.).
**
It is not a justice to use tax payer money for promoting belief of a group of persons (athiest). Atheists should use their own resources to promote their ideologies. Same what religions are doing. Not use common public money , universities ,schools, medias for promoting their ideologies.
**
So you think that not believing in a religion, is a religion
Yes it is also a type of belief … Belief in non exsistance of God. When a group of similar minded persons with same belief comes together , it will become a religion.

Christianity is a religon which belives in the divinity of Jesus…It is a group of people believing in the divinity of Jesus. Islam is a religon consisting of similar minded persons who have common belief in islamic ideologies and prophet hood of mohammed. Similar in the case of Buddhism and Hinduism.

Athiesm works in the same manner of eastern religons…Doesn’t have any visible authority or hierarchy for governance of that community like traditonal christian churches. But like hindus, muslims, Pentecostals and Buddhists works, it is promoted by small small groups or individual leaders.

Ok atheism doesn’t have any rituals as they didnt belive in the exsistance of God. If there is no God , then to whom they will offer their prayers.?. So they didn’t have any rituals or place of worship. that is the only difference between them and established religions.
This post is an exception, because having read it, it is simply mind boggling that anyone could seriously think it is either rational or reasonable for an atheist to be taxed by the government for NOT believing in God or gods where a system is in place, approved by churches for the collection of taxes of the faithful!
If I didnt laugh I would cry!
You didn’t understand what I meant. That is the only problem… What I meant is that athiesm is also a religon. It is not a justice as promoting athiesm by using public money. Also You laugh or cry…that is your individual freedom…
 
What I meant is that athiesm is also a religon.

No. It isnt.

And youve repeated that idea several times in several different ways in the three replies you made to my post, but no matter how many times or ways you repeat it, it doesnt change the fact that atheism is not a religion.

Read this and it might help you understand a little bit better.

And how can you believe in the belief of not believing in a diety?

Like I said, if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

:extrahappy: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::whacky:

Sarah x 🙂
 
Ok atheism doesn’t have any rituals as they didnt belive in the exsistance of God. If there is no God , **then to whom they will offer their prayers.?. **
The emphasised part does kinda make me think you really dont have a clue what atheism is 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
 
No. It isnt.

And youve repeated that idea several times in several different ways in the three replies you made to my post, but no matter how many times or ways you repeat it, it doesnt change the fact that atheism is not a religion.

Read this and it might help you understand a little bit better.

And how can you believe in the belief of not believing in a diety?

Like I said, if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

:extrahappy: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::whacky:

Sarah x 🙂
It is a religion…It is a belief in the non existence of God. Meaning of the word religion is a collective of common belief system. It means opinion only. In that sense athiesm can be treated as a religion as it is a form of common belief system among various people , that there is no God exists…

Stamp collection is not considered as a religon, It is only a part of habit or hobby. They are doing it for their mental and emotional satisfaction. But Athiesm is a belief system. Nobody became atheist for his emotional or mental satisfaction. But it is a belief that is deep rooted in his mind.

What I meant is that athiest to be taxed like christians in Germany. If atheist group needs money for its functioning , it should be taxed from atheists and distribute it among groups.It is not a justice to use public money for promoting atheism (which includes tax money of a religious persons also) .
 
I know very well what is athiesm.
Your comments make it quite clear you don’t really.

You also dont seem to really understand how the tax arrangement for the Catholic church in Germany works.

Sarah x 🙂
 
:D:D:D

Possibly the most silly post I’ve ever read on any forum, ever 😃

You think atheists and agnostics should be taxed for NOT having a belief in a God or gods

:rotfl:
You rate my posts as you wish… I dont need your certification… More over it is your individual freedom.

Christians in Germany is taxed not for believing jesus as God, but for the functioning of the churches they belongs to. Likewise athiest should be taxed not just for not beliving in God, but for those agencies which promotes athiesm, defenitly requires money. They should not be allowed to use public money or Govt institutions for their needs. Instead of that it should be taxed from athiests and distribute among athiest groups.
So my thoughts should be taxed :eek:
If atheism is a belief, not collecting stamps is a hobby :rotfl:
Dont copy and paste previous posts… If you dont have anything to tell more , please dont respond to my posts.
 
Instead of that it should be taxed from athiests and distribute among athiest groups.
Im still waiting for you to answer the question - what atheist groups in Germany receive public funding from the tax payer to promote their atheist agenda, as you claim?

Sarah x 🙂
 
Your comments make it quite clear you don’t really.

You also dont seem to really understand how the tax arrangement for the Catholic church in Germany works.

Sarah x 🙂
In my younger ages , I was a supporter of communism. I am coming from a state in India which is ruled by communists most often.So I know all those nonsense very well.

Yes I admit , I dont really know how catholic church in Germany functions. But I have one opinion that athiest should not be allowed to use public money for promoting their ideologies. They should use their own resouce , as religions (Christiantiy, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam) does.
 
But I have one opinion that athiest should not be allowed to use public money for promoting their ideologies
Ive asked you several times now and you havent answered… what organisations in Germany use public funds, the taxpayers money, to promote atheism at the expense of the state? Do you have an answer?

Sarah x 🙂
 
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