1 Cor 11:30 Spiritual or physical?

[Elder]

I am looking for a serious understanding as to this passage. The verse regards eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper and not understanding that Christ’s body and blood are truly present: that is treating the Lord’s Supper as any other meal. Because, it is obvious that some of the members of the Church at Corinth did not reguard Christ’s Body and Blood as truly present…

Paul says “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”

So the question is: Is Paul speaking about being spiritually “weak and sickly” or is he speaking about a “week and sickly” physical condition> The “sleep” obviously means dead, but again, is it that their faith has died, or were they physically died?

There are commentaries that advocate both positions. The Reformed must reguard this a physical, or their OSAS doctrine falls, the Lutherans say the “weak and sickly” is spiritual, I have read ECF that go both ways.

What does the modern RCC teach? Why?

 

[peary]

I am looking for a serious understanding as to this passage. The verse regards eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper and not understanding that Christ’s body and blood are truly present: that is treating the Lord’s Supper as any other meal. Because, it is obvious that some of the members of the Church at Corinth did not reguard Christ’s Body and Blood as truly present…

Paul says “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”

So the question is: Is Paul speaking about being spiritually “weak and sickly” or is he speaking about a “week and sickly” physical condition> The “sleep” obviously means dead, but again, is it that their faith has died, or were they physically died?

There are commentaries that advocate both positions. The Reformed must reguard this a physical, or their OSAS doctrine falls, the Lutherans say the “weak and sickly” is spiritual, I have read ECF that go both ways.

What does the modern RCC teach? Why?

**Paul is very emphatic on teaching that the bread and wine are in reality the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF CHRIST. He also says that if anyone partakes of this and is in sin, or ignores Who he is receiving, heaps condemnation upon himself.

Conerning the above passage that you quote, Paul probably could be indicating that those who do this are spiritually weak and spiritually sick. He says that they ‘sleep’ which is another way of saying that they are spiritually ‘dead’. The Church, from my understanding, clarifies the passage in this way.**

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I am looking for a serious understanding as to this passage. The verse regards eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper and not understanding that Christ’s body and blood are truly present: that is treating the Lord’s Supper as any other meal. Because, it is obvious that some of the members of the Church at Corinth did not reguard Christ’s Body and Blood as truly present…

Paul says “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”

So the question is: Is Paul speaking about being spiritually “weak and sickly” or is he speaking about a “week and sickly” physical condition> The “sleep” obviously means dead, but again, is it that their faith has died, or were they physically died?

There are commentaries that advocate both positions. The Reformed must reguard this a physical, or their OSAS doctrine falls, the Lutherans say the “weak and sickly” is spiritual, I have read ECF that go both ways.

What does the modern RCC teach? Why?

The two are often tied together - if God is punishing someone with sickness and/or death, that means they are spiritually at odds with Him.

Now, God can sometimes bring pains upon Christians (e.g. martyrs), but that doesn’t mean He is punishing them but rather making them endure something in order to strengthen their soul.

In this situation, verse 32 Paul says God is chastising these Christians (putting them through trials for their sin with the hopes they will shape up) so that they will “not be condemned with the world” - a direct contradiction of Sola Fide which teaches Christians can never be condemned.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t know. I remember reading a while back that thanks to things like the obesity epidemic, the current young generation of Westerners will probably be the first in many hundreds (if not thousands) of years to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents.

Can’t help but think that this decline in our physical health may be linked to increasing disbelief in the Real Presence and corresponding increase in unworthy reception of the Eucharist.

 

[peary]

I don’t know. I remember reading a while back that thanks to things like the obesity epidemic, the current young generation of Westerners will probably be the first in many hundreds (if not thousands) of years to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents.

I’m sure Obamacare will make sure of it. But that’s for another thread.

 

[StCsDavid]

I would say Paul is speaking of both physical and spiritual illness. One of my favorite scenes from the Godfather III is when Michael goes to confession. Before he confesses he has a diabetic episode and has to drink some juice. As he is recovering the cardinal who is going to hear his confession makes a statement, “The soul is troubled, the body cries out.”

Now this is not to say that every illness has a direct correlation to sin; however, I am of the opinion that sin can physically manifest itself in illness. If we believe that we our body and soul are one as we walk this earth, it makes sense that an injury to the soul could potentially translate to an injury in the body. Perhaps Paul witnessed some of this in the people of Corinth.

I don’t see this illness as a punishment from God, but rather a physical side effect of sin, not all that different than a hangover after a night of heavy drinking.

 

[Elder]

I agree with you completely, thank you. (Lutherans do believe in the real presence in the Lord’s Supper)

In Genesis 2:17 God tells Adam, “…in the day that thou eatest thereof, you shall surely die.” In this case, Adam died spiritualy the day he “ate thereof”, but he also brought physical death into the world.

I have read several commentaries on this verse, Lutherans and some ECF understand the illness to be spiritual, all reformed and some other ECF’s see it a physical illness.

 

[Elder]

Thanks, ok, its 3 to 2 in favor of physical illness or both, actually I was hoping for an “official” answer but one of your Apologists has not answered my question there yet.

Yes, I could understand both spiritual and physical here also, just as with Adam and the fruit. However, I really think spiritual illness is more correct.

Consider “the Martyrdom of Polycarp” chapter IX, Quintas the Apostate. Quintas must have been physically healthy and a Church member in good standing for him to convince others to stand up (Volunteer) for Martyrdom. Yet, he showed his lack of faith (spiritual weakness) when he failed the test. If he had been physically weak, the others would have said, ya, you go, you are ready to die anyway???

For “Catholic Dude” I believe you misunderstand “Sola Fidia” at least as confessional Lutherans understand it. Please do not lump me with the reformed, or even liberal Lutherans. Please

 

[NHInsider]

Thanks, ok, its 3 to 2 in favor of physical illness or both, actually I was hoping for an “official” answer but one of your Apologists has not answered my question there yet.

There probably is no “official” answer. The Church rarely makes definitive statements on the “meaning” of individual verses or passages of Scripture.

 

[Ignatius]

I am looking for a serious understanding as to this passage.

So:
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it*,* and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it*, *in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord’s death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Clearly “he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself” can mean more than denial of the True Presence. There are other ways to profane the body and blood of The Lord.

In answer to your question, It is certainly a sacrilege to profane the Eucharist which is a mortal sin.

 

[Elder]

Thank you Ignatius, Here is the background of the question. On another forum, neither RC or Lutheran, I was having a discussion with a RC lady. How this started is irrelevant, but it surprised me that she, an RC, a person that does believe in the real presence of Christs body and blood being present in the Lord’s Supper, (as I do also) and does believe that a person can loose their salvation (as I do also), would consider the illness and weakness in Verse 30 as Physical.

I told her surely the official RC understanding was that Paul was speaking of Spiritual weakness, illness or death; as is the Lutheran position.

The reformed have to say it was Physical weakness or their OSAS doctrine falls, but the RCC does not have that problem.

Anyway, that is the background to the question. I must admit that as another resondent on this thread stated, it is possible that Paul was speaking of both Physical and spiritual weakness, though my understanding has always been Paul was just speaking of spiritual weakness

 

[Ignatius]

Thank you Ignatius, Here is the background of the question. On another forum, neither RC or Lutheran, I was having a discussion with a RC lady. How this started is irrelevant, but it surprised me that she, an RC, a person that does believe in the real presence of Christs body and blood being present in the Lord’s Supper, (as I do also) and does believe that a person can loose their salvation (as I do also), would consider the illness and weakness in Verse 30 as Physical.

I told her surely the official RC understanding was that Paul was speaking of Spiritual weakness, illness or death; as is the Lutheran position.

The reformed have to say it was Physical weakness or their OSAS doctrine falls, but the RCC does not have that problem.

Anyway, that is the background to the question. I must admit that as another resondent on this thread stated, it is possible that Paul was speaking of both Physical and spiritual weakness, though my understanding has always been Paul was just speaking of spiritual weakness

Agreed, it is certainly possible that we would receive some physical form of correction as well for God does not desire the death of a sinner but his repentance.