1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

[flatlanderjenn]

Hello!

I’m having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

She says St Paul originally wrote “effeminate,” not “sodomites” and not “homosexual” like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

Here’s some help:
catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp

The greek “arsenkoites” or something close to that ties in with Leviticus 18:22-30 if I remember correctly. Yes it seems to be a word that Paul created… but it ties directly to the Leviticus passage.

I’ve heard professors/pastors quote as saying that we have no idea what it could possiblly mean… I call that dishonest in attempt to push their agenda…

It’s pretty clear that the church has always taught it’s wrong…

 

[MarcoPolo]

You could also support your interpretation by pointing out that Paul condemns homosexual behavior elsewhere:Romans 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Well “effeminate” was written (or a word similar to it anyway), but it is a separate term from the word translated as “homosexual” which is why many translations have both effiminate and homosexuals listed as people who will not inherit the kingdom.

The actual word used in the original greek and translated to homosexual is “arsenokoitai” which is a very difficult word for translators because St.Paul’s writings are the first time it appears in any known greek text. While the idea that it refers to some form of homosexual action has a strong possibility of being accurate the condemnation is almost certainly exclusive to male homosexuals since the root word “Arsen” refers specifically to males. Some would even say that the word is a reference to the greek translation of the leviticus passage regarding men laying with men since the words Arsen and Koitai are in very close proximity in that verse. I am no scholar though, I only gain my knowledge from knowing a couple, so I can’t really give you much more information than that.

 

[colmcille1]

Hello!
I’m having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.
In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:
“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
She says St Paul originally wrote “effeminate,” not “sodomites” and not “homosexual” like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.
Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?
Do you have any suggestions for me?
Thanks.

Hi flatlanderjehn,
A good topic. I do not have the Latin or Greek translations but, if it is of any help, here is what both the D-R and Knox Bibles say:

**D-R : (9) 'Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, (10) Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.’

Knox: (9) ‘You will know well enough that wrong-doers will not inherit God’s kingdom. Make no mistake about it; it is not the debauched, the idolaters, the adulterous,
(10) it is not the effeminate, the sinners against nature, the dishonest, the misers, the drunkards, the bitter of speech, the extortioners that will inherit the kingdom of God.’

I have italicized what I believe to be the relevant terms. I think the meaning of homosexual activity is clear in both translations.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[manygift1spirit]

I believe it was Catholic Answers Live about six months ago when a caller had a question about those translations. In particular, the caller had just tried to parse what the most literal translation of the word usually phrased as “sodomite” was.

As he was about to say it, the host jumped in “Waaaait wait a minute you can’t say that on the air.” The caller paused for a second and said something like “Oh yeah you’re right”

Nuff said.

 

[Barbkw]

No doubt, you will also hear from her that Sodom was destroyed for its lack of hospitality to strangers.

Certainly not because the men of the city were homosexual / bisexuals who patrolled the houses at night forcibly raping men.

 

[Barbkw]

When protestant denominations ordain noncelibate same sex attracted and gay partnered priests and priestesses, it becomes vitally important to change the meaning of the biblical texts to fit their lifestyles.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hello!

I’m having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

She says St Paul originally wrote “effeminate,” not “sodomites” and not “homosexual” like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.

The words involved are “malakos” and “arsenokoites” (which seems to be a combination of “arsen” and the verb “keimai”).

“Malakos” has a very wide range of meanings–the most basic of which is “soft.” The word can mean “soft” in the sense of: cowardly, lacking in morality or self-control, gentle, mild or effeminate. As far as I know, the only other place this word appears in the Septuagint is in Prov 25:15 and Prov 26:22.

“arsen” simply means “male” or “masculine”–pretty straightforward. “kaimai” means “to lie down” (not necessarily with sexual connotations) but is used in the Septuagint translation of Lev. 18 to describe sexual relations. As I recall, Paul’s use here is the first historical record of this word.

If you compare the various English translations, I imagine they will be all over the map; as I recall, Luther even translated the word as “child abusers.” The Vulgate has “molles neque masculorum concubitores”: “soft ones” (same as Greek) and something like “bedfellowers of men”—again occurring only in 1 Cor 6:10 and 1 Tim 1:10.

You can look up the words at perseus.tufts.edu/hopper
/resolveform?redirect=true if you find a dictionary helpful for your discussion.

I’m sure that there is a ton of information available on the Internet about these verses.

 

[James224]

Here’s some help:
catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp

The greek “arsenkoites” or something close to that ties in with Leviticus 18:22-30 if I remember correctly. Yes it seems to be a word that Paul created… but it ties directly to the Leviticus passage.

I’ve heard professors/pastors quote as saying that we have no idea what it could possiblly mean… I call that dishonest in attempt to push their agenda…

It’s pretty clear that the church has always taught it’s wrong…

The Nestle-Aland Greek Morphology uses:

ἀρσενοκοῖταιἀρσενοκοίτης male bed partnersNNPM 88.280

The DRV says, “Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.”

Notice: “Liers” doesn’t mean “Liars” but, rather, those men who lie down with other men.

So, you are right. Also, I like to use Rom 1:27-28.

 

[James224]

The Nestle-Aland Greek Morphology uses:

ἀρσενοκοῖταιἀρσενοκοίτηςmale bed partnersNNPM 88.280

The DRV says, “Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.”

Notice: “Liers” doesn’t mean “Liars” but, rather, those men who lie down with other men.

So, you are right. Also, I like to use Rom 1:27-28.

To add to this it already uses “Adulterers” in verse 9 so it cannot be referring to Men who lie down with women.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

You will have to grant your opponent this: the Bible does not deal with homosexuality, just as it does not deal with heterosexuality. It deals with behaviors. A man can have sex with another man and not consider himself homosexual. A woman can have sex with a man and not be heterosexual. Prostitutes are prime examples. Regardless of the modern idea of sexual orientation, such behaviors are consistently condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.

Looking at it another way, there is no differentiation in Greek between man and husband. The same word, aner, is used for both. The same is true for woman and wife. The word gyne means both. This is what creates the variation in translation of 1 Timothy 3:2. The cultural assumption we can infer from this is that the norm for Greek society was for men to be married to women and no other relationship.

 

[ebcat]

Robert Sungenis says this…

Often the Hebrew or Greek did not assign one word to describe an action or state, but used several words. For example, Hebrew did not have a word for “uncle,” and thus whenever an uncle is in view the Hebrew would describe the person as “your father’s brother.” The same was true with homosexuality. It was described by various phrases in both Hebrew and Greek. Hebrew used “a man who lies with a male” (Lv 20:13). Greek would refer to them as “abandoning the natural function of the woman” or “burning in lust towards one another, men with men” (Rm 1:27).

But at one point the Greek does, indeed, describe homosexuality with one word. In 1 Cor 9:9, St. Paul uses the word ARSENOKOITAI, stating that such persons will not inherit the kingdom of heaven: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.” This word appears one other time in the New Testament, 1Tm 1:10: “and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.”

The Greek word ARSENOKOITAI is a combination of the words ARSEN = “male”; and KOITUS = “sexual copulation.” We have a word in English, “coitus,” which means sexual intercourse. So here we have a word in Greek that is about as precise as a word can be to describe two males having sexual relations. The word ARSENOKOITAI literally means “male sexual relations.”

We also find the word ARSENOKOITAI in classical Greek literature many years before and after the New Testament made use of the word. It appeared in the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25; Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5; and Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum viii, 4, p. 196, 6; 8; and the Sibylene Oracles 2, 73 and Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3. The pedigree is established, and thus, any claims to “homosexuality” surfacing as merely a “nineteenth century” classification is simply fallacious.

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/bible/bib_homo.htm

 

[PLeeD]

I can only imagine that “malakos” translated as “effeminate” refers to the 2a definition listed here:

malakos

1. soft, soft to the touch
2. metaphor. in a bad sense
   a) effeminate
   
   1) of a catamite
   [*]of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
   [*]of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
   [*]of a male prostitute​

Source:
blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3120&t=KJV

 

[PJM]

=flatlanderjenn;7133865]Hello!

I’m having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

She says St Paul originally wrote “effeminate,” not “sodomites” and not “homosexual” like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.

The First Book of the Bible, Genesis

The First Chapter verse 27-28 says:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[flatlanderjenn]

Thank you everybody!

All of your answers are incredibly helpful, the debate would not have gone well without all of you. Of course, she’s still all bent out of shape because she doesn’t like the greek word arnesokoitai and can’t figure out a way around it. That word was exactly what I was looking for.

Barbkw, yes, that was the first argument she gave to me - that Sodom was destroyed for their lack of hospitality to guests. Thank goodness for Catholic Answers tracts, otherwise I wouldn’t have addressed her claim seriously.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

Robert Sungenis says this…

The Greek word ARSENOKOITAI is a combination of the words ARSEN = “male”; and KOITUS = “sexual copulation.” We have a word in English, “coitus,” which means sexual intercourse. So here we have a word in Greek that is about as precise as a word can be to describe two males having sexual relations. The word ARSENOKOITAI literally means “male sexual relations.”

That’s the first I’ve seen that correlation between the words…thanks.

We also find the word ARSENOKOITAI in classical Greek literature many years before and after the New Testament made use of the word. It appeared in the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25; Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5; and Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum viii, 4, p. 196, 6; 8; and the Sibylene Oracles 2, 73 and Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3. The pedigree is established, and thus, any claims to “homosexuality” surfacing as merely a “nineteenth century” classification is simply fallacious.

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/bible/bib_homo.htm

OK this is VERY interesting. I haven’t seen anyone on either side of the debate ever quote sources where this word was used in other places than by Paul. I’ll have to look more into this…Thanks again.

 

[flatlanderjenn]

Wow! I found a really really really good article about this after googling “Polycarp Philippians Arsenokoiti”.

This is an article written by Presbyterians, but I think it seems very sound, in line w/ Catholic teaching: theologymatters.com/Mayjun95.pdf

The author mentions Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3, too.

 

[Jaymax]

Robert Sungenis says this…

Often the Hebrew or Greek did not assign one word to describe an action or state, but used several words. For example, Hebrew did not have a word for “uncle,” and thus whenever an uncle is in view the Hebrew would describe the person as “your father’s brother.” The same was true with homosexuality. It was described by various phrases in both Hebrew and Greek. Hebrew used “a man who lies with a male” (Lv 20:13). Greek would refer to them as “abandoning the natural function of the woman” or “burning in lust towards one another, men with men” (Rm 1:27).

But at one point the Greek does, indeed, describe homosexuality with one word. In 1 Cor 9:9, St. Paul uses the word ARSENOKOITAI, stating that such persons will not inherit the kingdom of heaven: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.” This word appears one other time in the New Testament, 1Tm 1:10: “and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.”

The Greek word ARSENOKOITAI is a combination of the words ARSEN = “male”; and KOITUS = “sexual copulation.” We have a word in English, “coitus,” which means sexual intercourse. So here we have a word in Greek that is about as precise as a word can be to describe two males having sexual relations. The word ARSENOKOITAI literally means “male sexual relations.”

We also find the word ARSENOKOITAI in classical Greek literature many years before and after the New Testament made use of the word. It appeared in the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25; Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5; and Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum viii, 4, p. 196, 6; 8; and the Sibylene Oracles 2, 73 and Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3. The pedigree is established, and thus, any claims to “homosexuality” surfacing as merely a “nineteenth century” classification is simply fallacious.

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/bible/bib_homo.htm

I disagree. Breaking a word into it’s component parts as the only way to find it’s meaning is naieve.
Imagine doing that to a word like “ladykiller” and you might see what I mean,

Besides that, are you aware that Robert Sungenis is not only a known anti-semite but also believes in geocentrism. Hardly someone to take seriously as a scholar.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sungenis

I find Professor Dale B Martin’s article below is far more informative and much better researched. The word arsenokoitai can not “honestly” be translated as “homosexual” (Dale Martin is Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University)
clgs.org/arsenokoit%C3%A9s-and-malakos-meanings-and-consequences

Also, why do so few people ever seem to mention that the 1967 Catholic Encyclopedia interpreted this as “masturbators” not homosexuals?

 

[Vouthon]

Homosexuality is never condemned in scripture as an orientation, however homosexual acts are condemned as sinful. This is a divinely revealed biblical truth, such that we Catholics - despite our great love and sympathy for people afflicted with passionate homosexual urges - cannot but condemn it.

However, I really do not think that this particular passage refers to adult, male-on-male or female-on-female relationships. I cannot lie. This idea is actually ludicrous if you consider the context.

First of all “arsen” refers to “men”, masculinity so it limits the scope of the passage to male sexual deviancy. Lesbianism is thus not within the scope of this passage, whatever it means it is restricted to men.

Basically: it refers to some kind of obscene, sexually depraved and perverted behaviour comitted solely by adult men for which there existed no adequate word in the Greek language, such that Paul had to basically invent a whole new word so as to be able to convey the meaning he desired to express. That’s all we REALLY know for certain.

Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to homosexuals, we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the word “paiderasste.” That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual activity between males - it was just as common as our modern term, “homosexual”. If Paul had thus wanted to speak about “homosexual sex” then he would simply have used this word, which he obviously would have known about and so his meaning would be clear.

Paul however, never did this. Instead he actually coined a new word - obvously attempting to condemn some obscene, sexually perverted act committed by men for which there was no specific word in the Greek language.

I actually think that he was condemning paedophilia and child-abuse.

Many would consider “malakoi” – the word preceding “arsenokoitai,” in 1 Corinthians – to refer to a catamite: a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with men. Such boys were often slaves, owned by rich men as sex partners. This was a truly obscene form of “pederasty”, which was rampant throughout the Roman world. Thousands upon thousands of innocent young boys sold into virtual sex-slavery so that they could be abused by lustful older men. It was horrendous.

The second term probably refers then to the men who engaged in sex with the catamite boys. That is, they were abusive paedophiles. The New American Bible contains a footnote which reads:

“The Greek word translated as ‘boy prostitutes’ [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world…The term translated ‘practicing homosexuals’ refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.”

Harper’s Bible Commentary (1998) states that the passage refers to:

“… both the effeminate male prostitute and his partner who hires him to satisfy sexual needs. The two terms used here for homosexuality… specify a special form of pederasty that was generally disapproved of in Greco-Roman and Jewish Literature.”

Given the context this appears to me to be the most appropriate explanation.

I can not understand why Paul would go to such lengths, grappling with words to create a new term that as yet did not exist in the Greek language, if the meaning he was so desperately trying to convey was simply adult homosexual sex, for which there already existed a common, everyday word that everybody recognised.

This is just implausible I’m afraid.

Honestly, we will never truly know what these words mean as they are basically impossible to translate, however I think the context favours most of all child-abuse through the sexually enslavement of young boys as “calamites” - boy prostitutes who were abused by older men.

Its my firm conviction then that the central portion of 6:9 might be accurately translated as:

“male child abusers and the boys that they sexually abuse.”

This kind of act