1 Corinthians 1:10-13

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Mind you, not all, but a large minority of bishops along with Cyprian defied the Papal decree. And by doing so they violated Canon 7 of the Ecumenical Council of Nicae ll : "Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according tot he following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Catharia or Aristeri, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation of their errors and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God. Thereupon, they are first sealed or anointed with the holy oil upon the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and ears; and when we seal them, we say, ‘The seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ But Eunomians…, Montanists, Phrygians, and Sabellians, and other heresies…all these…we receive as heathen…" This Canon includes the Novatians (here Cathari), who were the very ones whose valid baptisms Cyprian denied. So Pope Stephen couldn’t have exceeded his authority. As the universal pastor of the Church, he was responsible to ensure that ecclesiastical law was observed everywhere. The Catholic Church (East-West) in general sided with Pope Stephen, as did the close majority of bishops in North Africa. It was within 90 years at the most that all the bishops in North Africa finally conceded. Cyprian was canonized a saint because he died a martyr. Augustine felt that this atoned for his disobedience to the Pope.
I found what you quoted in Canon 7 of the Council of Constantinople in 381AD.
earlychurchtexts.com/public/constantinople_canons.htm

There was a Council of Nicea in 325AD and a second council in 787AD.

Was Stephen, who was Bishop of Rome from 254-257AD, upholding a ruling of a Council that was over a century in the future? Was Cyprian guilty of violating a Canon, when it wasn’t even a Canon yet? :confused:

I think there was a difference in opinion. The groups argued about which way it should be. Eventually the idea to not re-baptize won acceptance and was accepted at the Council of Constantinople. Before this there was no specific ruling to violate. That is how I understand it at least.
 
I found what you quoted in Canon 7 of the Council of Constantinople in 381AD.
earlychurchtexts.com/public/constantinople_canons.htm

There was a Council of Nicea in 325AD and a second council in 787AD.

Was Stephen, who was Bishop of Rome from 254-257AD, upholding a ruling of a Council that was over a century in the future? Was Cyprian guilty of violating a Canon, when it wasn’t even a Canon yet? :confused:

I think there was a difference in opinion. The groups argued about which way it should be. Eventually the idea to not re-baptize won acceptance and was accepted at the Council of Constantinople. Before this there was no specific ruling to violate. That is how I understand it at least.
Correct. Canon 7 belongs to the First Council of Constantinople in 381. However, as I said, the number of North African bishops who refused to accept the baptisms of these contrite heretics, albeit the valid sacramental formula, acted in discord with the Church in general. This was Pope Stephen’s main concern in his universal jurisdiction. The primary duty of regional and local bishops was to act in the interest of the entire Church in unity with her universal teachings and practices. Canon 7 served as a prescription to keep all regional and local bishops in line with the whole Church without any dispute. The canon defined what was already generally practiced by the Church before the issue was raised in North Africa. So the canon itself wasn’t an implementation of this general practice.Perhaps, by 381, there still were some bishops who felt that these lapsed members should be rebaptized, so it was time to canonically prescribe otherwise and leave no room for questioning the general practice. Canon 7 was in a sense an endorsement of what the Pope declared against in affirmation of Catholic teaching and practice. Anyway, if you ever decide to become Catholic, you won’t have to worry about being rebaptized unless the Holy Trinity wasn’t invoked in your baptism. 🙂

:heaven:
 
Rome has always been the head of all churches.

In the first millennium it was undisputed that the Church of Rome was the head of the entire Christian Church. This truth is plainly stated in the writings of all who discussed the subject.

Saint Irenaeus of Lyons wrote in AD 190:

“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those who exist everywhere.”

200 years later, the Roman Emperors ordered the entire Empire to submit to the Church of Rome, which alone had remained pure and undefiled against the Arian heretics, declaring in the Edict of Thessalonica:

“It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

That Rome’s authority comes not from man, nor any council, but from the Lord Jesus Christ himself, was acknowledged before all at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431:

“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3810.htm

At the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, the Pope was called “the ruler of the whole Church”, and the text of the First Council of Nicea (AD 325) was read, which stated “The Roman Church has always had the primacy.” In response, the council declared:
From what has been done and brought forward on each side, we perceive that the primacy of all and the chief honour according to the canons, is to be kept for the most God-beloved archbishop of Old Rome.

newadvent.org/fathers/3811.htm

Now the council of Chalcedon attempted to elevate the see of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire, to a place of honor equal to Rome. But they had to seek permission from the Bishop of Rome, writing:

“And this golden chain leading down from the Author of the command to us, you yourself have steadfastly preserved, being set as the mouthpiece unto all of the blessed Peter, and imparting the blessedness of his Faith unto all… Of whom you were chief, as the head to the members, showing your goodwill in the person of those who represented you… Accordingly, we entreat you, honour our decision by your assent, and as we have yielded to the head our agreement on things honourable, so may the head also fulfil for the children what is fitting.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3604098.htm

Pope Leo sternly rebuked the council for attempting to elevate Constantinople above the churches of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, whose sees were given a place of honor after Rome at the First Council of Nicea. Eventually all out schism broke out between Rome and Constantinople - the Acacian Schism - but in the end Constantinople and the other eastern churches submitted to Rome (the “Apostolic See”) in the Formula of Hormisdas, which declared:

“For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” [Matthew 16:18], should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied.”

“Following, as we have said before, the Apostolic See in all things and proclaiming all its decisions, we endorse and approve all the letters which Pope St Leo wrote concerning the Christian religion. And so I hope I may deserve to be associated with you in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides. I promise that from now on those who are separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See, will not have their names read during the sacred mysteries.”

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122063/The%20Formula%20of%20Pope%20St%20Hormisd

Can you find any writing, by anyone in the first millennium, arguing against any of the foregoing statements?
 
Due to space requirements per post, I will focus on Peter, Jesus and authority He established, and the necessity of unity in the Church and consequences for those who divide.

Re: Authority, consider. .
  • An argument broke out in the upper room between the apostles over who among THEM is the greatest. They are about to go out into the garden and Jesus is going to begin His passion, and His 11 apostles are in this argument. (Judas has already left the room)
here is Luke’s account.of that ( ALL links that follow are operational)

Thanks Steve

We might add John 17: 18 and John 20:21

John.17: [18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

John John.20: [21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

"all WERE sent; but “all” were keenly aware of Peters Unique role

I have a list of Peter FIRST from the bible; among the clearest is Jesus telling and at the same time commanding …YOU {Peter} feed MY sheep…

Blessings
 
PJM
it is good hearing from you.
I almost forgot what the original post was about.

I note:

*Why is Paul not instructing all to follow Peter in this little passage calling for unity? At this point Jesus has ascended meaning there should be a clear church leader on earth.

I am trying to accept the idea of papal authority but what I have observed from my readings of Paul, James, and Peter is giving me a hard time feeling like Peter was the head. It is almost like there is friction between these three.

Please be gentle and help me understand what is being said here.*

There was trouble in the early Church, since there were humans in it. Peter and Paul did not get on. Paul considered Peter a hypocrite, and told him to his face. Peter also criticized Paul. James was considered the head of the Jerusalem Church and Paul had difficulties with him and the other so-called pillars of the Church.

You might like to look at biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a87.htm

There are always conflicts in the Church, even at present Cardinal Raymond Burke is having a bitter feud with the pope.

The pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on faith and morals, but he can be wrong in other things.

I am reminded of what I was told some years ago that the boss is not always right, but he is always the boss.

It is interesting to remind ourselves that Andrew was the first called.
 
PJM
it is good hearing from you.
I almost forgot what the original post was about.
I note:
*Why is Paul not instructing all to follow Peter in this little passage calling for unity? At this point Jesus has ascended meaning there should be a clear church leader on earth.
I am trying to accept the idea of papal authority but what I have observed from my readings of Paul, James, and Peter is giving me a hard time feeling like Peter was the head. It is almost like there is friction between these three.

Please be gentle and help me understand what is being said here.*
Sure and gladly:

BECAUSE SPACE IS LIMITED ON THIS FORUM, MY REPLY WILL TAKE SEVERAL CONSECUTIVE POSTINGS

First let’s just be logical
  1. Christ become man for precise reasons; among which was so that WE [humanity] could actually come to Know GOD, not just “know OF God.” …. Isa. 43: 7 & 21
  2. Secondly were all the issues relating to humanities POSSIBLE & conditional salvation; which in an absolute sense was NOT to be left to “chance”, and thus Christ following OT Sacred Tradition of BELIEF in just One TRUE God; the One set of faith beliefs of that One True God [even God can have only One set of faith beliefs]; and in and through [OT= my chosen people Exo 6:7] & replicated by Christ in Mt 16: 18 with “MY CHURCH” singular ….
Any and all churches are identified by their chosen set of faith beliefs [which clarifies WHY all Protestant churches hold to at least SOME objectively false beliefs…. At least SOME of their beliefs are man, NOT God originated. TRUTH can be nothing other than singular per defined issue. This LOGIC seems to be overlooked by a great many. …. It is impossible that God [who is and can only be PERFERCT] would have waited for the Protestant reformation [revolution] to make HIS Truths known. A period of more than 1,000 years after Jesus had founded the RCC.

CONT ON NEXT POST
 
Cont from prior POST
  1. Next is the significance of ONE:
One God, faith and church, because God knew that this would give the “best odds” of, and the most direct meaningful direction to man, who is naturally prone to seek his own alternatives. This driven by Satan’s favorite weapon; man’s PRIDE.

CHECK OUT EACH THESE SITES
[1] churchfathers.org/category/the-church-and-the-papacy/

[2] google.com/search?
q=early+fathers+on+the+papacy&oq=Early&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0j35i39l2j0l2.5489j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[3] catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=81
  1. Because SPACE is limited on CAF, here are some passages to look up. To make your task easier here is a site: …… quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/
Mt 10: 1-5; Mt 16:18-20; Jn 17: 17-20; Mt 10: 6-8, Mt 28:18-20; Eph. 219-22: Eph. 4: 1-7 …. NOT that each of them is directly and exclusively from Jesus to the Apostles
  1. BACK to logic again: Every successful business has a single head. WHY? Because that is the most assured way to get THINGS done. Throughout the OT God [Yahweh] consistently choose One MAN to lead.
From Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Judges [all males], the Kings like David and Solomon, and then the Prophets [also ALL males], leading to John the Baptist, who introduced JESUS, who following the Sacred Tradition chose 12 male apostles. & Peter to be their LEADER.

Look carefully at these two precisely worded by the HS Inspired authors of GODS bible
2Tim.3:16 to 17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

**Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”
**

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] **Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. **[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Cont on NEXT POST
 
CONT from last POST

Pre-resurrection [1] Matt.16: 15 to 19 “He said TO THEM, “But who DO YOU say that I am?” SIMON PETER REPLIED “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” AND JESUS answered him, “BLESSED ARE YOU, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, BUT MY FATHER who is in heaven. And I TELL YOU, …. YOU are Peter, [SINGULAR} and on THIS ROCK {YOU PETER] I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH {SINGULAR} and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU {PETER DIRECTLY & EXCLUSIVELY SINGULAR}…. {ALL OF THEM IMPLIED}the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU LOOSE[1] on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
POST resurrection [2] John.21:14 to 17 “This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to THE DESCIPLES after he was raised from the dead. When they had finished breakfast, JESUS SAID TO SIMON PETER, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” HE SAID TO HIM {DIRECTLY AND EXCLUSIVELY} He said to him, {YOU} “Feed my lambs.” A second time HE SAID TO HIM {DIRECTLY & EXCLUSIVELY}, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, {YOU} “Tend my sheep.” HE SAID TO HIM A THIRD TIME {DIRECTLY & EXCLUSIVELY} “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, {YOU}"Feed my sheep”
6. Now as to your concerns about Paul and James.

James [the “Greater”] was the 1st Bishop of Jerusalem; while Peter was the 1st POPE [a theological tern not yet coined at that time].

Paul was by far the most highly trained and educated [in religious matters] of all of the Apostles and the authors of the NT. He was himself a Rabbi before his conversion. Luke was a Doctor and too very educated and worked as a SCRIBE for Paul for years. But he lacked Pau’s faith formation, but no doubt learned very much fro him.

Paul’s MISSION was to the gentiles; while Peter’s was to the Jewish community and then to the gentiles after their conversion.
Gal.2:9 “and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas [PETER}and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised”
1Cor.15: 5 “and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve”

1Cor.1: 12 “What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”

John.1: 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (“ROCK” which means Peter).

**Gal. 1:4-19 “who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel.** For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.**

For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas,{PETER} and remained with him fifteen days. {THIS WAS AFTER PAUL’S CONVERSION & THE TIME HE SPENT ALONE IN THE DESERT BEING INFUSED WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH BY THE HS]… SO PAUL BEGAN HIS MINISTRY BY FIRST VISITING CEPHAS…PETER} But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. {Bishop of Jerusalem}


There may have been in some prideful manner a sense of competition on Paul’s part? ?? But he too recognized the PRIMACY of Peter, and James who also knew that Christ had personally appointed Peter as the Head of the New Church as he was there when Christ made the appointment.

As to your specific question on Paul not instructing THEM to follow Peter:

This was not only a logical choice NOT to do so, but practically speaking, it would have been imprudent, even counterproductive.

Cont on next and fianl POST of this reply
 
Cont from previous POST REPLY

I spent a great part of my life before retiring in Sales and Sales management and Sales Training. Not so different from our times; Paul. James, Peter and the Apostles were VERY MUCH “salesmen for Christ.” … they HAD to sell their beliefs, before they could TEACH their beliefs.
The above passages from Galatians explains it well …. Paul understood that he HAD TO first sell his faith before teaching it. That faith was SELLING CHRIST as the Son of God! Had he attempted to interject the Church’s hierarchy at that juncture, he would have GREATLY diluted the PRIMARY message: Jesus is the Son of God.
Remember that Paul was teaching HEATHENS; Pagans, unfamiliar with any structure to their religious beliefs and many gods. …… There is a slogan in teaching sales techniques: KISS
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid…. Don’t unnecessarily complicate the sales presentation. ….No doubt Paul learned ths from experience.

SUMMARY

I pray my friend that this explains it. If not please send me a private message and I’]] send you further information.

Thanks for asking! Pray very much

God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM] here on CAF
 
PJM
You write:
James [the “Greater”] was the 1st Bishop of Jerusalem; while Peter was the 1st POPE [a theological tern not yet coined at that time].
I wonder.
I had thought that James ‘the brother of the Lord’ was the first bishop of Jerusalem, but I get confused.
 
PJM
You write:
WHY all Protestant churches hold to at least SOME objectively false beliefs…. At least SOME of their beliefs are ,

It seems you disagree with B XVI. He holds there are no such thing as ‘Protestan churches’, they are only ‘ecclesial communities’.
As I wrote we can disagree with popes, but be careful, they may be correct.
 
PJM
You write:
James [the “Greater”] was the 1st Bishop of Jerusalem; while Peter was the 1st POPE [a theological tern not yet coined at that time].
I wonder.
I had thought that James ‘the brother of the Lord’ was the first bishop of Jerusalem, but I get confused.
He was a son of Zebedee and Salome, and brother of John the Apostle. He is also called James the Greater or James the Great to distinguish him from James, son of Alphaeus and James the brother of Jesus (James the Just). [WHO is a cousin NOT a Brother as we understand the term]

Saint James the Greater - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_son_of_Zebedee

GBY
 
PJM
You write:
WHY all Protestant churches hold to at least SOME objectively false beliefs…. At least SOME of their beliefs are ,

It seems you disagree with B XVI. He holds there are no such thing as ‘Protestan churches’, they are only ‘ecclesial communities’.
As I wrote we can disagree with popes, but be careful, they may be correct.
He not [at least in THIS case]

ASK 100 non-catholic-Christians if they belong to a “church” or a ecclesial community" and the SUPER majority will answer “church”👍

GBY

Did my post answer the questions?

Patrick
 
PJM
You write
ASK 100 non-catholic-Christians if they belong to a “church” or a ecclesial community" and the SUPER majority will answer “church”
Should I believe non-Catholic Christians or the pope.
Are you saying the pope was wrong when he said Protestants belong to an ecclesial communion not a church?
 
PJM
You wrote:
James [the “Greater”] was the 1st Bishop of Jerusalem;

This is incorrect i.e. wrong.

It is no big deal, but if you say a thing is wrong it is not correct.

Nowadays some think everything is correct, different people have different truths, alternative facts.

It is easy to get confused with the various ‘James’, but one thing is sure James the Greater was not the 1st Bishop of Jerusalem.
 
In Acts, Peter takes charge early on. He selects Matthias, and is the main spokesman. In Galatians, Paul says that he went to Peter and James for instruction and the validation of his revelation from Jesus, which they gave.
Yes, Peter and James were heads of the Church Jesus Christ founded in Jerusalem, the church of the circumcised, that’s a historical fact. Paul on the other hand, was regarded as the founder of the church of the uncircumcised, were circumcision was not required.
 
Pneuma

Do we have any evidence that Peter was the head of the Church in Jerusalem?
Peter, James or Paul were never heads of the Church. Christ is the head of the Church, his mystical body, the people of God.
  • I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? *(1 Cor. 1:12-13 NAB)
 
quote
Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
PJM
You write:
WHY all Protestant churches hold to at least SOME objectively false beliefs…. At least SOME of their beliefs are ,

It seems you disagree with B XVI. He holds there are no such thing as ‘Protestant churches’, they are only ‘ecclesial communities’.
As I wrote we can disagree with popes, but be careful, they may be correct.end quote
He not [at least in THIS case]

ASK 100 non-catholic-Christians if they belong to a “church” or a ecclesial community" and the SUPER majority will answer “church”👍

GBY

Did my post answer the questions?

Patrick
ACTUALLY the pope is CORRECT and I was RIGHT:D

Technically what the Pope does is give us the theological and correct understanding, while what I shared [LOOK IN THE YELLOW PAGES] under BOTH headings and see for yourself, what Protestant’s choose to call themselves:thumbsup:

GBY
 
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