1 Corinthians 11:17-34

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japhy in entry #64 in (Apologetics > Sacred Scripture > CCC Scripture citations index - it’s on)
seemed to want to talk about 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, however it seemed a subject for a different thread…so here’s the thread started.

I went to japhy’s blog on the subject over at Cross Reference where his new Lectionary index now is (great tool…thanks tons).
He wrote a thought that he had from a lecture series on 1 Corinthians 11. His blog seemed to me somewhat old Catholic textbook. Now, don’t get me wrong…I am NOT criticizing at all.
I do believe people when they read this particular section of Paul are ALL over the map with their understanding. That is probably why the current lectionary did not schedule some of the passage.

As japhy aptly noted: “Now you can see, for example, that only in the Extraordinary Form do we hear those urgent words of St. Paul in 1 Cor 11:27-29 about being careful not to receive Holy Communion unworthily. In the Ordinary Form, we hear parts of 1 Cor 11:17-34, but not verses 27-29.”

This passage is totally appropriate with what has just happened in the church regarding the Pope reversing excommunication for those four bishops.

Public TV just had the story last night where they interviewed the Catholic Reporter about this. The reporter said that this reversal now will avoid the schism that was developing. And that the Pope’s visit in May to Israel (?) will help solve the recent Jewish-Catholic relations upset, just like the Pope’s visit to Turkey in 2006 helped that whole affair over there.

Getting back to the reading: Paul is talking UNITY here. A person must read this in the context of the times. Corinth was excluding people from Eucharist and this was causing schism. Paul’s word play on “judgment” is in today’s thinking (I think very strongly) being incorrectly understood and twisted to mean something that Paul did not intend it to mean.

The Pope by his recent actions is teaching the whole Christian church what this passage means. You can’t exclude people from
Eucharist, because if you do, you are blocking the personal revelations from God to each excluded person
as well as ripping the unity of the church. It is far better to include problems, with all the trust that you can muster, and allow God, Himself, to assist in the teaching of Eucharistic meaning than try to protect it from any difficulty that might
arise.

Yes, this means, to offer Eucharist to desirous non-Catholics!, to desirous Jews! to desirous heathens! to desirous Muslims! on and on and on. Jesus died for ALL. His bride the church is not to hide Him from ANYONE. How can desirous, non-Catholics even begin to experience the miracle Eucharist, if they don’t receive it?
 
LMP said:
Yes, this means, to offer Eucharist to desirous non-Catholics!, to desirous Jews! to desirous heathens! to desirous Muslims! on and on and on. Jesus died for ALL. His bride the church is not to hide Him from ANYONE. How can desirous, non-Catholics even begin to experience the miracle Eucharist, if they don’t receive it?
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Are you saying the Church should offer the Eucharist to Jews and non-Catholics before they convert…or are you saying we should work to unify them into the Church so that they can receive Him?
 
MarcoPolo said:
Are you saying the Church should offer the Eucharist to Jews and non-Catholics before they convert…or are you saying we should work to unify them into the Church so that they can receive Him?
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Okay, I had an experience with Eucharist back in 1982. The priest told me it was okay to partake of the Eucharist, even though I had not converted to Catholicism. HE understood! (He is now deceased.) I do think that if anyone in the upper authority of the church knew that he had done this, he would have been scolded severely. I think that the priest firmly believed that I was desirous and that is probably why he offered. That experience has been with me ever, ever since. I’ll never forget it.

Also, Jesus has His own ways on how He reveals Himself. He may not even reveal His truth to anyone ever, instead insisting on their unseeing faith to carry them. He may take ten years to do this. He may do it immediately.

It is just this…if a person is desirous, then it should be offered and not blocked. I’m firmly committed to this thought.

I believe that the church should rethink this Bible Word.
 
I have no doubt to the spiritual movement you may have had that day and I think that is wonderful. But I do not foresee the Church approving the Eucharist ever to non-Catholics. This is Scriptural and Traditional and thus God’s word.
 
LMP said:
Okay, I had an experience with Eucharist back in 1982. The priest told me it was okay to partake of the Eucharist, even though I had not converted to Catholicism. HE understood! (He is now deceased.) I do think that if anyone in the upper authority of the church knew that he had done this, he would have been scolded severely. I think that the priest firmly believed that I was desirous and that is probably why he offered. That experience has been with me ever, ever since. I’ll never forget it.

Also, Jesus has His own ways on how He reveals Himself. He may not even reveal His truth to anyone ever, instead insisting on their unseeing faith to carry them. He may take ten years to do this. He may do it immediately.

**It is just this…if a person is desirous, then it should be offered and not blocked. I’m firmly committed to this thought.

I believe that the church should rethink this Bible Word**.
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Well you are wrong. I think the Church established by Christ himself and to which he gave authority knows better than you. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth but you seem so full of pride to see that.
 
thistle said:
Well you are wrong. I think the Church established by Christ himself and to which he gave authority knows better than you. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth but you seem so full of pride to see that.
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Please reread what you just wrote. Do you see any contradictions here?
 
If you’ve been reading Hebrews chapter 10 starting with verse 19 in the shadow of 1 Corinthians, it all just jumps off the page!
My thoughts are not pride. I’m not the only one who believes this way.
 
LMP said:
If you’ve been reading Hebrews chapter 10 starting with verse 19 in the shadow of 1 Corinthians, it all just jumps off the page!
My thoughts are not pride. I’m not the only one who believes this way.
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I think what our friend is saying is why does your interpretation trump the Church’s? This is the seed of the division of the Protestant Reformation is it not?
 
LMP said:
Okay, I had an experience with Eucharist back in 1982. The priest told me it was okay to partake of the Eucharist, even though I had not converted to Catholicism. HE understood! (He is now deceased.) I do think that if anyone in the upper authority of the church knew that he had done this, he would have been scolded severely. I think that the priest firmly believed that I was desirous and that is probably why he offered. That experience has been with me ever, ever since. I’ll never forget it.

Also, Jesus has His own ways on how He reveals Himself. He may not even reveal His truth to anyone ever, instead insisting on their unseeing faith to carry them. He may take ten years to do this. He may do it immediately.

It is just this…if a person is desirous, then it should be offered and not blocked. I’m firmly committed to this thought.

I believe that the church should rethink this Bible Word.
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This is from John Martignoni’s website. I think this paragraph applies here!

As Catholics, do we have to accept everything the Church teaches?"If you want to call yourself Catholic, but you want to pick and choose for yourself which of the Church’s teachings to accept and which to reject, you give everyone else who calls themselves Catholic the right to do the same thing.

For example, you believe women should be priests…in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1577 states, “Only a baptized man validly receives ordination…For this reason the ordination of women is not possible!” You don’t believe that…well, that’s fine…[RIP] just tear that page out of your Catechism…you just made it a Catechism of your Catholic Church…not mine.

But remember, if you can throw doctrines out, so can everyone else who calls themselves Catholic. That gives Joe Parishioner over at St. Doubting Thomas Catholic Church the right to throw out the Church’s social justice teachings…he doesn’t feel like feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, and all that other “bleeding heart” stuff - Paragraphs 2401 -2463 [RIP]…he just made it a Catechism of his Catholic Church…not mine and not yours.

You believe contraception is okay? Paragraph 2370 says contraception is intrinsically evil! [RIP] Joe Parishioner doesn’t like what the Church teaches on the death penalty - Paragraphs 2266-2267 [RIP]. You don’t like what it teaches on pages 55-60 [RIP]. He doesn’t like what it teaches on pages 128-140 [RIP]

Can you see what’s happening? I heard it said once that there is a shortage of vocations to the priesthood in the United States, but no shortage of vocations to the Papacy! If we don’t believe in all of it, if we each appoint ourselves Pope and throw out a doctrine here or a doctrine there, then our faith is no longer Catholic."
 
Ask and you will receive.
Where there is will there is a way.
Where did these saying comes from?

Look at this!!!

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31870

UPDATED: Traditional Anglican Communion set to Enter Catholic Church?
By Deacon Keith Fournier
1/29/2009

“The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has decided to recommend the Traditional
Anglican Communion be accorded a personal prelature akin to Opus Dei.”
 
LMP said:
Ask and you will receive.
Where there is will there is a way.
Where did these saying comes from?

Look at this!!!

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31870

UPDATED: Traditional Anglican Communion set to Enter Catholic Church?
By Deacon Keith Fournier
1/29/2009

“The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has decided to recommend the Traditional
Anglican Communion be accorded a personal prelature akin to Opus Dei.”
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What does this have to do with giving the Holy Eucharist to non-Catholics? Or interpreting Scripture against the Church’s? :o
 
LMP,

I think it has to do with protecting our Lord in the Eucharist from those who do not have, nor desire to have the proper reverence for Him. I would concede that there are Catholics in the pews who fit that bill as well, but they are going against teaching. I think opening Eucharist to all would greatly increase the number of people who receive without understanding or reverence and that only hurts our Lord. I certainly do not fault anyone who struggles with their beliefs that go against church teaching if they are seeking understanding of the teaching(s) as per Mark 9:24.

:twocents: notJane
 
notJaneAusten said:
LMP,

I think it has to do with protecting our Lord in the Eucharist from those who do not have, nor desire to have the proper reverence for Him. I would concede that there are Catholics in the pews who fit that bill as well, but they are going against teaching. I think opening Eucharist to all would greatly increase the number of people who receive without understanding or reverence and that only hurts our Lord. I certainly do not fault anyone who struggles with their beliefs that go against church teaching if they are seeking understanding of the teaching(s) as per Mark 9:24.

:twocents: notJane
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Well written. I think that I am in error by insisting on the opposite extreme…Eucharist for ALL. Yes, this is a rip in the other direction. I got zealous.
Forgive me.

Yes, when a person reads the passage in the Bible, we are not trying to control who receives and not receives Jesus by having rules about His reception. We are being reverent to Jesus with protective care. At the same time…we DO have to protect those from partaking without the necessary understanding…that is one of the basic missions of the Church…to teach people the needed understanding so that they CAN partake. There are serious consequences for all on this matter. Yet, how to teach? Every mind is different and learns differently.

It is so-o-o great that 1st communion is offered by the Church early on when children are around 2nd grade. Do they fully understand yet? No, but the gate is then opened for them to enter at their own pace, learning the whole while more and more each day and each time. Some are totally grown and stodgy in their ways already before they can even learn.

I’ve been reading the news surrounding this reversal of the excommunication.
  1. catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900410.htm
    Pope expresses hope for full communion with traditionalist society
“The pope said he considered the restoration of full unity in the Church as one of his primary pastoral tasks… This task of maintaining unity, he said, is symbolized by the Gospel account of the miraculous catch of fishes, when the net did not break despite the heavy catch.”
  1. zenit.org/article-24956?l=english
    Cardinal Bertone: Vatican II Not a Point of Rupture
“Some maintain that Vatican II was a sort of ‘constitution’ that eliminated an old constitution and created a new one. But this is
absurd because the essential constitution of the Church comes from the Lord,” the cardinal said

The secretary of state noted:
Vatican II has generated “two opposing interpretations”:
  1. "That of discontinuity and rupture – which often enjoys the sympathy of the media and of a part of modern theology – has caused confusion
  2. that of reform and renewal in the continuity of the one Church that the Lord has given, has been silently, but each day more visibly, giving fruit."
Benedict XVI, he said, has said “‘no’ to the hermeneutic of discontinuity and ‘yes’ to that of reform as it was explained by John XXIII in the opening of the council and confirmed by Paul VI at the closing address.”
  1. catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900430.htm
    Vatican and traditionalists: A story whose end has not been written
"Pope Benedict has built a bridge to the (excommunicated) society by making two decisions that were not very popular among mainstream Catholics: lifting the excommunications and restoring wider use of the 1962 form of the Mass, known as the Tridentine rite.

The four bishops and many society members have at various times rejected Vatican II teachings."
 
LMP said:
Ask and you will receive.
Where there is will there is a way.
Where did these saying comes from?

Look at this!!!

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31870

UPDATED: Traditional Anglican Communion set to Enter Catholic Church?
By Deacon Keith Fournier
1/29/2009

“The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has decided to recommend the Traditional
Anglican Communion be accorded a personal prelature akin to Opus Dei.”
Click to expand...
First and foremost the Catholic Church is not going to open Communion to everyone. It’s alot of hopeful thinking on the part of non-Catholics and those unable to receive because of divorces and re-marriages, Those refusing to follow Catholic tgeaching, Holy Scripture, and Traditions.

Those that believe this will occurr do not understand Catholic teaching in regards to the Eucharist.

In order to receive one must not be in Mortal sin and have repented, in other words turned away from sin and promise with all your heart, mind, and soul not to repeat.

If this was the case that one could receive without prejudice than the divorced man or woman decides to re-marry while they are still in the first valid marriage under God. The man or woman cannot truly repent as common sense will tell you that they cannot turn away from sin as sex with their new partner will be adultry. I doubt one in the new civil union can promise celibacy.

Thge Eucharist in the Catholic Church is the actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. To receive and not to believe this is sacrilidge. Another words goes aganist Sacred Scripture, Traditions, Teachings.

Do not believe everythying you read as much is taken out of context.

The Priests that were allowed back in the Church their leader had died, they received absolution, and promised to turn away from their sins and not repeat the sin that caused their excommunication. They through the Popes right to forgive sin or to retain sin had made the decision to forgive. Nothing wrong with that.
 
c659smith said:
Do not believe everything you read as much is taken out of context.

.
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Exactly, the whole point of this thread on 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.
The two extremes arise out of this misunderstanding and taking things out of context. The one, to correct the lagging behind of the very stodgy, swings far wide to the other end of the extreme. “If that, then this.” If the Church is not put back to center again, there will be rips in the net!

It all boils down to some sensibilities: Why was the Church at Corinth getting a talking to by St. Paul? What is the understanding of Eucharist? What is the Church’s mission in regards to Eucharist? What is the responsibility that the Church has in the shadow of the parousia to people outside the Church panicking for admission? What is serious and what isn’t? How does Jesus’ personal revelation to each individual and to the Church as a whole fit in here? What does this word “unworthy” REALLY mean in this passage? Is there a common, straight forward definition? How is the church to remain unified in today’s chaos and environment? How does the old blend with the new? Is there really an “old” and a “new anyway?”

Most importantly, how does the church respond to questions and to challenges and to thoughts and to suggestions? Have you ever bluntly told a toddler, “NO?” What is a toddler’s reaction? Where is Jesus’ love, patience and understanding reflected in the Church?

How many years has it been since Vatican II? They removed verses 27-32 from the lectionary readings? People are still asking WHY and the newer Church additions haven’t a clue what the deal is all about.

Our Pope is totally trying to put the Church onto center once again. Is ANYONE at all helping him?
 
LMP said:
Our Pope is totally trying to put the Church onto center once again. Is ANYONE at all helping him?
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I think he is an outstanding, marvelous Pope, and we should pray for him daily. :o
 
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