1 Corinthians 13

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

this is the famous “love is patient, love is kind,…” we hear at weddings in the Ordinary Form.
In the Douay-Rheims, the traditional Catholic English Bible, it says,

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up, 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil: 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth: 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void or tongues shall cease or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known. 13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

the Latin says “caritas” which can mean love. Latin has many words that mean exactly the same thing. “amor”- love, “caritas”, love, etc.

Now a reasonable translation, by looking at the word, without its real meaning, would be charity. If St. Paul meant, charity, then this is another verse that proves the Catholic position of salvation we always argue about here:’ If I have all faith…but not charity… I am nothing.

What does the original Greek mean? What is this passage supposed to say?

 

[Verbum]

HI iTE,

The Greek word is agapê, which, in the New Testament, means love. Check out John’s epistles, which are all about love and this is agapê. Douay-Rheims is very latinistic. You sort of have to do your own translation ot IT into regular English…

Verbum

 

[NHInsider]

this is the famous “love is patient, love is kind,…” we hear at weddings in the Ordinary Form.
In the Douay-Rheims, the traditional Catholic English Bible, it says,

-snip-

the Latin says “caritas” which can mean love. Latin has many words that mean exactly the same thing. “amor”- love, “caritas”, love, etc.

Now a reasonable translation, by looking at the word, without its real meaning, would be charity. If St. Paul meant, charity, then this is another verse that proves the Catholic position of salvation we always argue about here:’ If I have all faith…but not charity… I am nothing.

What does the original Greek mean? What is this passage supposed to say?

HI iTE,

The Greek word is agapê, which, in the New Testament, means love. Check out John’s epistles, which are all about love and this is agapê. Douay-Rheims is very latinistic. You sort of have to do your own translation ot IT into regular English…

Verbum

Either way, the verses do in fact speak to the importance of living our our faith, or what we commonly call “good works”

The translation problem highlighted by the charity-love question is not with the translation into the Latin or the D-R but with the changes in English. “Charity” to the modern English-speaker is reduced to “almsgiving” while at the time of the translation it had a much broader meaning. So if we use only the D-R or KJV we miss part of the meaning of both the Greek and the Vulgate.

This is not only a problem with this verse, it is pervasive. English has changed A LOT since the time when these translations were made (which is why students read Shakespeare with a glossary). If you or I were dropped into 16th century England we’d be hard-pressed to understand ordinary conversation and completely at a loss with some references to everyday things that are now obsolete. The most difficult are words which are still in use but with different meanings. This can lead to serious misunderstandings of Holy Scripture. (The most obvious such example is “suffer the little children to come unto Me.”)

 

[Nita]

It seems to me there are problems with both English terms in their common current understanding. If “charity” is thought of as almsgiving or giving to the materially poor, “love” is often understood only as an affectionate feeling or emotion - or at least as always involving an affectionate feeling. For a great many people “love your enemy” would be a contradiction in terms.

Maybe we should translate it as “charitable brotherly love”!
But even that doesn’t quite capture the depth of the care for others that “agape” encompasses.
For me, “agape” means loving as Jesus loved. It’s not something we’ve arrived at (at least I haven’t), but what we should always be trying to do.

Nita

 

[BereanRuss]

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails

I know that most of us have heard this before but just as a reminder,

Take the verses above and insert the name Jesus for the word love (charity) as you read the passage. Now try it again but this time insert your name as your read it.

P.S. I used a more modern version so my tongueith would not get so tiredith.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

Than you all for your responses. So the Greek “agape” means love, correct? Am I right to assume St. Paul was thus refering to love not charity proper? I am taking into consideration the word caritas which means a broad scope of things, but what exactly does agape mean?

Plus Holy Thursday comes to mind:
Ubi caritas, et amor, Deus ibi est. Where charity and love are, God is there. It seems charity and love are considered two different things in Latin here.

 

[Evan]

Agape is certainly a word in Greek that can be translated into Love. So is the Greek word Eros. For a scholarly discussion of the difference, you might want to read the pope’s encyclical ‘Deus Caritas Est’

in my latin-english dictionary, Love in NOT one of the translations of Caritas. Love in latin (in the 70’s ) was Amor.

Love has too many meanings in English. To translation any word as Love in English needs a footnote to explain what is meant by love in this translation of the word.

I remember reading a translation of Augustine and they spent 2 pages explaining how they were going translate various words:

Caring love
Loving Care
Brotherly Love
Infatuation
Christian Love
Sexual Attraction

So we would get what Augustine was saying, because there are many words in other languages, and each means something different but COULD be translated simple as Love

 

[juliamajor]

In Greek there are several kinds of Love were accepted
Eros- Sexual, physical love
Philos- family, brotherly
Agape- Love of God,selfless love
Storge-natural affection

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

interesting. i am so interested because in english love and charity make to different meanings to the verse. however, as was mentioned, various words meant different concepts of love/charity, so put frankly i am confused.

 

[cheeto1]

Take the verses above and insert the name Jesus for the word love (charity) as you read the passage. Now try it again but this time insert your name as your read it.

How did you think of this idea? That’s a really interesting and smart idea.

 

[pnewton]

interesting. i am so interested because in english love and charity make to different meanings to the verse. however, as was mentioned, various words meant different concepts of love/charity, so put frankly i am confused.

Then insert “selfless love” if that makes it any easier. Love is a better translation, expecially since charity is a transliteration rather than a translation. At the time, it meant the same the as the agape love of Greek. It still can carry this meaning. However, since the word charity has taken on a different meaning in this day and age, it is confusing to many.