(1 Corinthians 14:26-29) Church Service?

[Robert_Heibel]

I wonder how many Christians who now go to church (Mass, or any regular Sunday service in any Christian church) has ever been to a service where people: (1 Corinthians 14:26-29) “So, my dear brothers, what conclusion is to be drawn? **At all your meetings let everyone be ready with a psalm or a sermon or a revelation, or ready to use his gift of tongues or to give an ** interpretation; but it must always be for the common good, If there are people present with the gift of tongues, let only two or three, at the most, be allowed to use it, and only one at a time, and there must be someone to interpret. If there is no interpreter present, they must keep quiet in church and speak only to themselves and to God. As for prophets, let two or three of them speak, and the others attend to them.”

(Acts 10:44-47) “While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners. Jewish believers who had accompanied Peter were all astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on the pagans too, since they could hear them speaking strange languages and proclaiming the greatness of God, Peter himself then said, ‘Could any one refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit just as much as we have?’

Yours in Christ,
Bob

 

[Pug]

Robert Heibel:

(1 Corinthians 14:26-29) “So, my dear brothers, what conclusion is to be drawn? **At all your meetings let everyone be ready with ** a psalm or a sermon or a revelation, or ready to use his gift of tongues or to give an interpretation; but it must always be for the common good

Could you identify the translation you are using here? I am unfamiliar with the sense conveyed by “LET everyone be ready…” I am more familiar with it being rendered this way, “When you assemble, each one has a psalm…” The two are different in meaning. One is a command, to have a psalm at your fingertips, and the other is a comment, that the Corinthians all have something to say.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pug:

Could you identify the translation you are using here? I am unfamiliar with the sense conveyed by “LET everyone be ready…” I am more familiar with it being rendered this way, “When you assemble, each one has a psalm…” The two are different in meaning. One is a command, to have a psalm at your fingertips, and the other is a comment, that the Corinthians all have something to say.

THE JERUSALEM BIBLE, is what I quoted.

THE NEW JERUSALEM: “When you come together each of you brings a psalm or some instruction or a revelation, or speaks in a tongue or gives an interpretation.”

 

[Pug]

Thanks for the clarification. I only have access to the NewJB, so I didn’t guess JB.

Bible study groups are often like what the JB words bring to mind. (except for not being the main assembly). Everyone is prepared, and everyone can contribute as is good, perhaps by encouragement, perhaps by bringing up an OT verse, perhaps by witnessing, saying a prayer, etc. However, order is kept. One would hope that if a non-believer came to visit a bible study, they would learn and be drawn to God, instead of thinking, “What a bunch of loonies!”

Women do speak at most bible study groups (re: later verses in the chapter).

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Dear Pug,

Thank you for sharing about Bible study and what people bring to the meetings. You know of course that wasn’t all Paul was addressing.

What I think Paul was addressing; was when everyone, (mature Christians, men & woman) attend a church service, they should be ready to share the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, tongues, etc.)

Bob

 

[delorean_boy]

I dont really know what point your trying to make.

here is the same quote from the DR bible:

26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification.

27 If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course: and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 And let the prophets speak, two or three: and let the rest judge.

From this passage and form the context, it seems the St Paul isnt telling these people to worship this way, but is adressing what they already do. It seems like he is trying to regulate abuses of the Gifts. I think it is especially interesting how he stresses the importance of prophesy compared to tongues.
Now in the commentary in my bible, as well as my bible dictionary, it states this: prophesy: …that is, to declare or expound the mysteries of the faith.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Point I’m trying to make is: most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us.

If you will read all of (1 Corinthians 14:1-25) You should understand that Paul was explaining that the gift of tongues was equal to prophecy if there was someone who had the gift of interpretation. If the gift of tongues comes from the Holy Spirit, then the gift of prophecy must come from the same spirit.

(1 Corinthians 14:24-25) “but if you were all prophesying and an unbeliever or uninitiated person came in, he would find himself analysed and judged by everyone speaking; he would find his secret thoughts laid bare, and then fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed.”

Can you lay bare secret thoughts of anyone without the Holy Spirit? Are you able to read minds?

 

[Pug]

Robert Heibel:

Point I’m trying to make is: most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us

I agree that there are Christians who have gifts that they do not appear to use. We sometimes need to be more bold! I also agree that we should use the gifts we have been given to build up our brethren. Your other reference (to Jesus giving the HS to guide) calls to mind other bible verses, and not 1cor14 so much.

If you will read all of (1 Corinthians 14:1-25) You should understand that Paul was explaining that the gift of tongues was equal to prophecy if there was someone who had the gift of interpretation

This is not perfectly clear to me, although I see some basis for your direction. It is clear that in church Paul wants to see tongues only with interpretation. It seems clear that he is explaining how tongues in the absence of interpretation during the assembly is not very desireable. This seems his principle point. To demonstrate that the one who has tongues (in conjunction with another person to interpret them) and the one who has prophesy are equal, or have equal gifts (not sure right now if there is a difference) does not seem to be his reason for writing the chapter. However, there is one line immediately visible that seems to speak closely to this:

NJB:

1 Corinthians 14:5 While I should like you all to speak in tongues, I would much rather you could prophesy; since those who prophesy are of greater importance than those who speak in tongues, unless they can interpret what they say so that the church is built up by it.

So, perhaps one can infer from this verse that if one has both the gift of tongues and can also (themselves) interpret the tongue to others, then they would not be of lesser importance.

Ought not a person with the gift of tongues pray, so that they may have the gift of interpreting the tongue to build up others?

“Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But strive for the greater gifts…[long gap]…since you are eager for spritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church. Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.” (Not NJB, is NRS).

If the gift of tongues comes from the Holy Spirit, then the gift of prophecy must come from the same spirit.

I agree that the gift of tongues and prophecy and many other gifts come from God (from the HS).

Can you lay bare secret thoughts of anyone without the Holy Spirit? Are you able to read minds?

No, only the HS will open a “blind” man to see to repent. This is a grace.

Also, there is another point in your other post:

was when everyone, (mature Christians, men & woman) attend a church service, they should be ready to share the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, tongues, etc.)

I agree in some principle to this, that if it is appropriate to the type of service and the order of events, and a gift comes to you to share, then you ought to share it. It was, after all, meant to be shared!

 

[Church_Militant]

Robert Heibel:

Point I’m trying to make is: most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us.

1st Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?

You left out the verse that most applies to your pentecostal services. I know because I was one (and a deacon no less). Is every utterance of tongues aloud interpretted? If not, according to the Word of God it is not of God and so your service is disordered which is also condemned by the Word.

The whole context of 1st Cor 12-14 is most important for any of these gifts…

Furthermore, how do you know that “most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us.”? Do you know all Christians? Or even “most Christians”? I doubt that very seriously. Yet you make a judgemental generalization about them and we Catholics as well!?!

Can you lay bare secret thoughts of anyone without the Holy Spirit?

Funny you should mention that…St. Padre Pio did that. It’s great to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church! Glory Be To God! :irish1:

 

[Robert_Heibel]

1st Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?

You left out the verse that most applies to your pentecostal services. I know because I was one (and a deacon no less). Is every utterance of tongues aloud interpretted? If not, according to the Word of God it is not of God and so your service is disordered which is also condemned by the Word.

The whole context of 1st Cor 12-14 is most important for any of these gifts…

Furthermore, how do you know that “most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us.”? Do you know all Christians? Or even “most Christians”? I doubt that very seriously. Yet you make a judgemental generalization about them and we Catholics as well!?! Funny you should mention that…St. Padre Pio did that. It’s great to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church! Glory Be To God! :irish1:

First I would like you to know I am not involved in any Pentecostal church. I do though have the gift of tongue, prophecy, knowledge, and have walked in the gift of healing. I know that the gift of tongues is to praise God when we haven’t the words to express our love for Him. Also over the years the gift of tongues and interpretation of the tongue has been used much by the Holy Spirit to teach and guide me.

I know Pio, and also Francis of Assisi, walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have read accounts of both Pio and Francis. I read pio’s account in nineteen-sixty and after reading his life story I though Wow! He did so much for God and I’m doing so little. Because of that I gave up smoking thinking at the time this was doing something for God. Did a lot for me. Francis was told to rebuild God’s Church, and I am trying to do the same thing.

You may be right I may use generalizations at times, and that isn’t right. I’ll have to be more careful. Thank you.

Robert

 

[Todd_Easton]

Robert Heibel:

I wonder how many Christians who now go to church (Mass, or any regular Sunday service in any Christian church) has ever been to a service where people

If your local Catholic diocese is like mine, such Charismatic Healing Masses are held on a regular basis. Contract your local diocese for infomation. If you live in Western Washington, here’s a link.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

1st Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?

You left out the verse that most applies to your pentecostal services. I know because I was one (and a deacon no less). Is every utterance of tongues aloud interpretted? If not, according to the Word of God it is not of God and so your service is disordered which is also condemned by the Word.

The whole context of 1st Cor 12-14 is most important for any of these gifts…

Furthermore, how do you know that “most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us.”? Do you know all Christians? Or even “most Christians”? I doubt that very seriously. Yet you make a judgemental generalization about them and we Catholics as well!?! Funny you should mention that…St. Padre Pio did that. It’s great to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church! Glory Be To God! :irish1:

Church: Those who hear the Word of the lord and live it. I believe Bio did live the Word of the Lord. You know I no longer consider myself a Catholic and I know I live the Word of the Lord. Yes I also walk in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[twf]

I would like to make a couple of points (from a Catholic perspective):

1. The time of public revelation has ceased. With the death of the last Apostles, no binding revelations were to be given. This does not mean that God will no longer communicate to his people, but no longer will doctrinal nor moral revelations, binding on all the faithful, be revealed…the Faith was deposited to the Apostles. The bishops of the Catholic Church were entrusted with this Faith, to safeguard, but not to add to. When Paul wrote this Scripture there were living Apostles and Prophets who could utter binding revelations. Today we have only private revelations, which are never binding on the entire Church, but for individuals or specific groups. Some are said to be for the entire Church, but as the time of public revelation has ceased, it is up to the individual Catholic’s discretion whether or not he will accept it.
2. Since we now have the entire deposit of Faith, the Mass can be set, as a time of sacred and solemn worship, as the sacrifice of the Eucharist is offered. There are no new doctrines to be added…nothing new that needs be incorporated into the Holy Mass.
3. This was not a doctrinal dicourse, on St. Paul’s part, it was a disciplinary canon. The Church has the power to bind but she also has the power to **loose ** (whether this is carried out by the person of the Pope…see Matthew 16, or by the bishops as a whole…see Matthew 18 and Acts 15). The Church has, by her authority, which was given to her by Christ, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, instituted various liturgies over the centuries for the faithful to properly celebrate the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist and to hear the Word of God. The Church doesn ot seek to limit the gifts of the Holy Spirit…there are many venues for mystics to use their wonderous gifts, but by her divinely mandated authority, she has determined, in her wisdom over the centuries, that within the context of the Holy Mass, only priests and deacons, for the sake of order (for we have a God of order, as St. Paul said), may proclaim the Word of God. Outside Holy Mass, of course, the laity, who are thus gifted, may preach, but under the guidance of the bishops, who are the sucessors of the Apostles, and authentic teachers of the faith (by virtue of the power of binding and loosing that Christ endowed to the Apostles…which is the authority to teach, to preach, to absolve sin, and to impose disciplines for the good of the faithful).

It is interesting that all four of the ancient Apostolic communions, whose bishops trace, through recognized succession, right back to the Apostles, have regulated liturgy. (Well these four churches have apostolic succession…validly ordained bishops…as recognized by the Catholic Church, and a direct historical continuity with the early Apostolic Church. They are the Assyrian Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the Catholic Church, which is composed of the Latin or Roman Church and the the various Eastern Catholic Churches). This is seen very early in the history of the Church, because of the importance of the Holy Eucharist. At first the celebration was very open ended, but as I said, there were then still public revelations adding to the doctrine of the Faith. As well, we can see from 1 Corinthians, and know from the Church Fathers, that the early Church suffered from many abuses in their Eucharistic celebrations. I believe that this played an important role (in addition to the end of the Apostolic Era and public revelation) in the Church’s decision, all around the world, to develope set liturgies. It is also helpful to propagate the Faith, as much of Sacred Tradition (teachings of the Apostles) can be passed down through liturgy. Already in the Didache, which may date back as far as the late first century, we see a sample of an early Eucharistic prayer, the beginnings of Christian liturgy, which eventually became the Mass in the West.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Dear Twf,
You said “Coming from Catholic perspective” 1.) The time of public revelation has ceased with the death of the last Apostles.

I have heard that teaching from people who say they are Protestants, but I don’t think it is a Catholic teaching. I will share a Scripture, which I believe will help put that teaching to rest. (Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

 

[mlchance]

Robert Heibel:

Dear Twf,
You said “Coming from Catholic perspective” 1.) The time of public revelation has ceased with the death of the last Apostles.

I have heard that teaching from people who say they are Protestants, but I don’t think it is a Catholic teaching. I will share a Scripture, which I believe will help put that teaching to rest. (Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

That there will be no more public revelation until Christ returns in glory is indeed Catholic teaching, and no Scripture that you can quote changes this fact.

CCC 66 (emphasis added): “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

mlchance:

That there will be no more public revelation until Christ returns in glory is indeed Catholic teaching, and no Scripture that you can quote changes this fact.

CCC 66 (emphasis added): “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

OK! You are right no matter what the Word of God says. Well, I am sure the Holy Spirit will honor your belief. I do feel bad for you though, having the gift of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus gave to His people to teach and guide them.

 

[mlchance]

Robert Heibel:

OK! You are right no matter what the Word of God says. Well, I am sure the Holy Spirit will honor your belief. I do feel bad for you though, having the gift of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus gave to His people to teach and guide them.

You said, regarding the end of public revelation:
Robert Heibel:

I have heard that teaching from people who say they are Protestants, but I don’t think it is a Catholic teaching.

About the facts of Catholic teaching on this point you’re quite wrong. The Catholic Church does indeed teach that since the death of the last Apostle there has been no new public revelation, nor will there will be until Christ Jesus returns in glory.

You can accept or reject that teaching as you see fit, but please spare all of this self-righteous pity-party thrown in honor of those of us who think the Church’s teaching is correct.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Lazerlike42]

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Paul writes that the Spirit gives different gifts to different people. Can some heal? Yes! Can some speak in tongues? Yes! (Though St. Paul clearly commands elsewhere that one should never speak in tongues unless someone is present and able to interpret them). So does the Spirit give some of us charismatic gifts? Certainly, no doubt, and these people are incredibly forunate to be graced by God as such.

On the other hand, Paul also includes wisdom, knowledge, and faith as a gift of the Spirit that some have and others don’t. So the idea that “most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us” is based on a rather large misunderstanding. True, we all get a gift from of the Spirit, but in fact for some people it could simply be faith and nothing more. Some folks are wise and know how to handle situations. They will say the answers to problems just come to them. This too is a gift of the Spirit.

Not every gift is some sort of charismatic gift that is necessarily visible. I would say that most Christians are using the gift of the Spirit of faith by simply being at church in the first place. Just because a person isn’t doing something noticeable, it doesn’t mean he isn’t using the gifts that God gave him.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Lazerlike42:

Paul writes that the Spirit gives different gifts to different people. Can some heal? Yes! Can some speak in tongues? Yes! (Though St. Paul clearly commands elsewhere that one should never speak in tongues unless someone is present and able to interpret them). So does the Spirit give some of us charismatic gifts? Certainly, no doubt, and these people are incredibly forunate to be graced by God as such.

On the other hand, Paul also includes wisdom, knowledge, and faith as a gift of the Spirit that some have and others don’t. So the idea that “most Christians are not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said He would give to teach, and guide us” is based on a rather large misunderstanding. True, we all get a gift from of the Spirit, but in fact for some people it could simply be faith and nothing more. Some folks are wise and know how to handle situations. They will say the answers to problems just come to them. This too is a gift of the Spirit.

Not every gift is some sort of charismatic gift that is necessarily visible. I would say that most Christians are using the gift of the Spirit of faith by simply being at church in the first place. Just because a person isn’t doing something noticeable, it doesn’t mean he isn’t using the gifts that God gave him.

(Matthew 5:14-15) “You are light for the world. A city built on a hill-top cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp to put it under a tub; they put it on the lamp-stand where it shines for everyone in the house.”

People may be walking in the gifts, but I was going to the Catholic Church into my forties, and from age of twenty-five to forty I went to Mass and communion most every day. I also was a co instructor in Catholic adult class. You know I didn’t know anything about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I never heard anyone speak in tongues or give a prophesy at Mass.
Robert

 

[Robert_Heibel]

mlchance:

You said, regarding the end of public revelation:

About the facts of Catholic teaching on this point you’re quite wrong. The Catholic Church does indeed teach that since the death of the last Apostle there has been no new public revelation, nor will there will be until Christ Jesus returns in glory.

You can accept or reject that teaching as you see fit, but please spare all of this self-righteous pity-party thrown in honor of those of us who think the Church’s teaching is correct.

– Mark L. Chance.

Dear Mark,
You said “Coming from Catholic perspective” 1.) The time of public revelation has ceased with the death of the last Apostles.

You know I may not know what you mean by public revelation would you give me your definition?
Robert