1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Ezra, Nehemiah? HUH?

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PetoVeritas

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Okay, so I’m reading about how 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras (and possibly 3rd and 4th Esdras, IDK) are part of the Eastern Church’s Cannon and that 1 & 2 are included in the Douay-Rheims bible. I’m also reading from Protestant sources that they’re a part of the Roman Catholic Cannon as well. However, I can’t tell. I’m checking the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, etc. and I can’t seem to tell. I suppose I could go through with 1 Esdras pulled up and my own bible in my hand, but I thought it might just be easier to ask the forum (which I did a somewhat quick search through too)

Do we have parts of 1 & 2 Esdras included in our Bible inasmuch as they’re separated into Ezra and Nehemiah or do we not or what? I’m really scratching my head on this and I want to know for sure because I’ve got Protestants reading the Deuterocanonical books and their Protestant sources are including 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras as part of the “Apocrypha of the Roman Catholics”.

🤷
 
PetoVeritas said:
:confused:

Okay, so I’m reading about how 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras (and possibly 3rd and 4th Esdras, IDK) are part of the Eastern Church’s Cannon and that 1 & 2 are included in the Douay-Rheims bible. I’m also reading from Protestant sources that they’re a part of the Roman Catholic Cannon as well. However, I can’t tell. I’m checking the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, etc. and I can’t seem to tell. I suppose I could go through with 1 Esdras pulled up and my own bible in my hand, but I thought it might just be easier to ask the forum (which I did a somewhat quick search through too)

Do we have parts of 1 & 2 Esdras included in our Bible inasmuch as they’re separated into Ezra and Nehemiah or do we not or what? I’m really scratching my head on this and I want to know for sure because I’ve got Protestants reading the Deuterocanonical books and their Protestant sources are including 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras as part of the “Apocrypha of the Roman Catholics”.

🤷
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In a nutshell:

Douay-Rheims : KJV/RSV
1 Esdras : Ezra (protocanonical)
2 Esdras : Nehemiah (protocanonical)
3 Esdras : 1 Esdras (deuterocanonical)
4 Esdras : 2 Esdras (deuterocanonical)
 
porthos11 said:
In a nutshell:

Douay-Rheims : KJV/RSV
1 Esdras : Ezra (protocanonical)
2 Esdras : Nehemiah (protocanonical)
3 Esdras : 1 Esdras (deuterocanonical)
4 Esdras : 2 Esdras (deuterocanonical)
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Catholic 3 Esdras is not part of the Catholic canon (although I seem to recall that has made an appearance in certain iterations of the Vulgate, which is probably why it appears in the DR), but IS included in the biblical canon of the Eastern Orthodox churches and some of the Churches of the East. As far as I know, 4 Esdras is only canonical for Gregorian Orthodox, although I think it was quoted by the church fathers from time to time.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Catholic 3 Esdras is not part of the Catholic canon (although I seem to recall that has made an appearance in certain iterations of the Vulgate, which is probably why it appears in the DR), but IS included in the biblical canon of the Eastern Orthodox churches and some of the Churches of the East. As far as I know, 4 Esdras is only canonical for Gregorian Orthodox, although I think it was quoted by the church fathers from time to time.
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So, if I understand you correctly then 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras should be found completely in both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles of Ezra and Nehemiah? Yet, 3 & 4 Esdras is found only in the Eastern Orthodox and Gregorian Orthodox cannons respectively.
 
PetoVeritas said:
So, if I understand you correctly then 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras should be found completely in both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles of Ezra and Nehemiah? Yet, 3 & 4 Esdras is found only in the Eastern Orthodox and Gregorian Orthodox cannons respectively.
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Sorry, it’s unfortunately a little more complicated than that. What is most commonly referred to as 1 Esdras (and the nomenclature can vary also so this is extremely confusing) is essentially the Septuagint’s version of a second version of the Book of Ezra, which is quite a bit longer than the Ezra text which appears in the Hebrew Bible/Massoretic Text. (An analogy here would be the difference between the longer Book of Daniel in the Septuagint which is accepted by Catholics versus the shorter version accepted by Jews and Protestants.) In this case, however, Jews, Catholics and Protestants base their own Book of Ezra on the Massoretic Text–so they use the shorter Hebrew/Aramaic text instead of the longer Greek Septuagint text. Most Orthodox (as would be expected) rely on the Septuagint, so for them the expanded version of Ezra is canonical.

To add to the confusion, some Latin Bibles have labeled the shorter Ezra as 1 Esdras as well, and then Nehemiah as 2 Esdras. There is a completely different work that at times has also been labeled 2 Esdras, which was written in Latin and accepted as canonical only by the Armenian Orthodox church. The west has usually called this work 4 Esdras.

There is yet another work called the Apocalypse of Ezra which is accepted as canonical by some Orthodox Churches, but not in the West or in the Churches of the East.

So, from a Catholic perspective 1 Esdras = shorter Ezra. From an Orthodox/Septuagint perspective 1 Esdras = longer Ezra.

From a Catholic perspective 2 Esdras = Nehemiah.

From a Catholic perspective 3 Esdras = the longer version, Septuagint-only Ezra

From a Catholic perspective 4 Esdras = the Latin work that’s accepted only in the Armenian Church.
 
A quick glance at the Wikipedia page for Esdras reveals a helpful chart that sorts out the relatively tangled complex of naming.

The so-called “Catholic Apocrypha” consists of books not in the Catholic Canon but that were included in an appendix to the Clementine Vulgate, namely 1 & 2 Esdras (=3 & 4 Esdras in Latin) and the Prayer of Manasseh. One of the advantages of the NRSV or the RSV-Ecumenical Edition is that they include these works, which although not canonical, have been long associated with the Vulgate.
 
Dave, your explanation is going into my “Catholic Catalog”. Thank you. I completely understand what you’re saying (but could never repeat it again accurately w/o notes, hence the copy and paste of your explanation to a Word document! HA!) It makes complete sense. Thanks again. 👍

I had looked at Wikipedia and some other sources like you, Bible Reader, and read what you mention there, it had me very confused as I knew, obviously, that 1 Esdras was not listed in our Cannon, but everything kept saying “Catholic ‘Apocrypha’”. Upon examining the DR online version I saw it correlated 1 & 2 Esdras w/ these other two books from the prophets and it really got my wheels spinning.
I have just recently gotten the RSV-CE Study Bible which is NT only and I have the NAB, then I’ve got my old Protestant NIV and KJV, but all the rest of the Bibles I reference are online. However, for my own edification and because non-Catholics I know are interested in reading the Deuterocanonical books (but using Protestant “Catholic ‘Apocrypha’” resources in some cases) I wanted to make sure I pass on accurate information to them and since my head is sometimes just a hat rack I wanted to be absolutely certain of what I was passing on. 😊
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Catholic 3 Esdras is not part of the Catholic canon (although I seem to recall that has made an appearance in certain iterations of the Vulgate, which is probably why it appears in the DR), but IS included in the biblical canon of the Eastern Orthodox churches and some of the Churches of the East. As far as I know, 4 Esdras is only canonical for Gregorian Orthodox, although I think it was quoted by the church fathers from time to time.
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Sorry, you’re correct. 3 and 4 Esdras (Vulgate), that is 1 and 2 Esdras (KJV/RSV) are apocryphal, not deuterocanonical.
 
I have a KJV 1611 edition. It has Ezra and Nehemiah in the Old Testament section, and 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras in the “Apocrypha” section. Remember that Protestant Bibles that include these books (including the "Additions to ") normally put them into their own section.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Catholics may be interested in this: wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/a-liturgical-bliblical-treasure-hunt/
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The Fr. Z blog post Dave mentions is clear and accurate – it is well worth reading.

The Bible that Fr. Z uses also excellent – it is one of my favorite editions of the Douay-Rheims-Challoner. Its main feature is its parallel presentation of the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate with the D-R-C, but the inclusion of the “Catholic Apocrypha” (the two additional books of Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh) in both the Latin and English are a big plus as well.

These “Catholic Apocrypha” books were in the 1611 second volume of the Douay Old Testament, but were not included in Challoner’s revision. Most English Catholic Bible editions, whether based on the Douay-Rheims or not, fail to include them.
 
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