1 John 2:19

[CatholicSoxFan]

When I look at biblical apologetics when it comes to once saved always saved/perseverance of the saints, this is a verse that I often wrestle with. I mean, it seems at least from my naïvete to be pretty darn clear:
[BIBLEDRB]1 John 2:19[/BIBLEDRB]
How do we Catholics explain this verse in light of our view that someone can lose their salvation?

 

[TimothyH]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

I don’t understand what this has to do with once-saved-always-saved and perseverance of the saints. John is writing about the antichrists - those who preach a different Gospel from the Apostles teaching - that Jesus is not from God and those who deny the Father and the Son.

-Tim-

 

[po18guy]

When I look at biblical apologetics when it comes to once saved always saved/perseverance of the saints, this is a verse that I often wrestle with. I mean, it seems at least from my naïvete to be pretty darn clear:
[BIBLEDRB]1 John 2:19[/BIBLEDRB]
How do we Catholics explain this verse in light of our view that someone can lose their salvation?

Keep in mind that the 16th century European rebellion introduced great error into Christianity. That error is always presented in a reasonable sounding form. Recall here that the temptation at Eden (Genesis 3) also sounded reasonable. Focus on revealed truth and error should not trouble you. Christ neither stands nor falls on the twisting of this single verse. When you hear such accusations, (as it is with the evil one who incited them, they will never stop), it is good to visit the letters of Peter, as they are doctrinally concentrated. Remember what Peter wrote about the ignorant and unstable twisting and distorting the scriptures 2 Peter 3:15-16. He specifically mentioned Paul’s writings. Remember also his writing regarding those who fall away from the faith 2 Peter 2:22. As to your current difficulties, have a look at 1 Peter 5:8-9 regarding the devil prowling about as a roaring lion.

When Paul confuses, flee to Peter and allow him to clarify.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

Keep in mind that the 16th century European rebellion introduced great error into Christianity. That error is always presented in a reasonable sounding form. Recall here that the temptation at Eden (Genesis 3) also sounded reasonable. Focus on revealed truth and error should not trouble you. Christ neither stands nor falls on the twisting of this single verse. When you hear such accusations, (as it is with the evil one who incited them, they will never stop), it is good to visit the letters of Peter, as they are doctrinally concentrated. Remember what Peter wrote about the ignorant and unstable twisting and distorting the scriptures 2 Peter 3:15-16. He specifically mentioned Paul’s writings. Remember also his writing regarding those who fall away from the faith 2 Peter 2:22. As to your current difficulties, have a look at 1 Peter 5:8-9 regarding the devil prowling about as a roaring lion.

When Paul confuses, flee to Peter and allow him to clarify.

I’m sorry, but this is not an answer. A Protestant could just say that no matter how resonable our arguments sound for Catholicism, so was Satan’s temptation at Eden. Same thing with the ignorant and unstable twisting the Scriptures.

 

[po18guy]

I’m sorry, but this is not an answer. A Protestant could just say that no matter how resonable our arguments sound for Catholicism, so was Satan’s temptation at Eden. Same thing with the ignorant and unstable twisting the Scriptures.

OK. What are you looking for, as I clearly do not understand your difficulty.

 

[po18guy]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

I don’t understand what this has to do with once-saved-always-saved and perseverance of the saints. John is writing about the antichrists - those who preach a different Gospel from the Apostles teaching - that Jesus is not from God and those who deny the Father and the Son.

-Tim-

I’m sorry, but this is not an answer. A Protestant could just say that no matter how resonable our arguments sound for Catholicism, so was Satan’s temptation at Eden. Same thing with the ignorant and unstable twisting the Scriptures.

I’m with Tim on this one. Your scripture quote did not come through, and that potentially makes a difference. Which translation are you using? As well, I do not understand why this verse, in any of its permutations, causes difficulty when taken in context(?).

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

I’m with Tim on this one. Your scripture quote did not come through, and that potentially makes a difference. Which translation are you using? As well, I do not understand why this verse, in any of its permutations, causes difficulty when taken in context(?).

I’m not really sure if that solves the problem, because according to verse 22, an antichrist is simply someone who denies the Father and the Son. I mean that context seems to strengthen the inference the Calvinist makes, not weaken it.

 

[po18guy]

I’m not really sure if that solves the problem, because according to verse 22, an antichrist is simply someone who denies the Father and the Son. I mean that context seems to strengthen the inference the Calvinist makes, not weaken it.

Quite simply, this verse supports Calvin only if much of the rest of the New Testament is discarded. Compare it to Romans 11:29-32, 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and 1 Timothy 4:10. The scripture does not say that God determined these men to go to hell, but rather, that He will include all in His pardoning, desires their salvation and is the Savior of all. How can this be if He pre-destined them to hell? Rather, it shows that man retains his free will, even in the face of truth. Your pastor friend sees them as pre-destined to hell, while non-Calvininsts see them as wrongly exercising their God-given free will. However, many denominations have been founded on little more than a single verse taken out of context.

I would not expect any, or even all scripture verses to have any effect on him, as you are dealing with the man’s personal preferences and prejudices. If he has been Calvinist his entire life, then you are essentially telling him that nearly everything he believes about predestination is wrong - implying that his beloved parents and even grandparents were also wrong. Knowing this, only the Holy Spirit can help out.

Words fail. Only prayer - perhaps over a long period of time - combined with your good example, can change a heart.