(1 John 3: 3 - 9)?

[Smile1934]

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; **anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. **My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

I wonder if any of you believe we can live a sinless life. If you don’t what do you believe John was telling us?

 

[Dan_Parker]

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; **anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. **My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

I wonder if any of you believe we can live a sinless life. If you don’t what do you believe John was telling us?

The verbal tense form here is present tense, the force of which in this context is making a habit or practice of sin. I don’t always agree with AT Robertson, but he has this correct here:

1Jo 3:9 - Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like hamartanei in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin. His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. Joh 1. And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartêsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in verse 8 and hamartanôn in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartête and hamartêi in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Ro 6:1 epimenômen têi hamartiâi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartêsômen in Ro 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

 

[Smile1934]

The verbal tense form here is present tense, the force of which in this context is making a habit or practice of sin. I don’t always agree with AT Robertson, but he has this correct here:

1Jo 3:9 - Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like hamartanei in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin. His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. Joh 1. And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartêsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in verse 8 and hamartanôn in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartête and hamartêi in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Ro 6:1 epimenômen têi hamartiâi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartêsômen in Ro 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

You don’t find that explanation somewhat weak? Also doesn’t is seem that it is diluting the Word of God with a lot of misdirection, especially if you will next read Hebrews.
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Dan_Parker]

You don’t find that explanation somewhat weak? Also doesn’t is seem that it is diluting the Word of God with a lot of misdirection, especially if you will next read Hebrews.
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Anyone who knows Greek understands this explanation. I can understand your not wanting to take someone elses word for this, but if you think the argument is weak, you should at least speak to the argument.

As for your quote from Hebrews, it appears to complement what Robertson says, not contradict it. One who makes a practice of sinning is likely deliberately committing these sins.

 

[Smile1934]

Anyone who knows Greek understands this explanation. I can understand your not wanting to take someone elses word for this, but if you think the argument is weak, you should at least speak to the argument.

As for your quote from Hebrews, it appears to complement what Robertson says, not contradict it. One who makes a practice of sinning is likely deliberately committing these sins.

I have found over the years when people don’t understand or like what the interpreters of the Word of God say, they say such things as it isn’t talking to us, it is hyperbole, or it taken out of context, and last of all the translation is wrong.

Now you are going to believe what you want to believe, and that is your right. I wonder though if you have ever asked Jesus if what you want to believe is right?

You see if what you believe were right then, Ananias and Sapphira sure would have liked to know what you seem to know.

(Acts 5:1-11) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘now can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This made a profound impression on everyone present. The younger men got up, wrapped the body in a sheet, carried it out and buried it.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had taken place. Peter challenged her, ‘Tell me was this the price you sold the land for? ‘Yes,’ she said ‘that was the price.’ Peter then said, ‘So you and your husband have agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test! What made you do it? You hear those footsteps? They have just been to bury your husband; they will carry you out, too.’ Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in they found she was dead, and they carried her out and buried her by the side of her husband. This made a profound impression on the whole Church and on all who heard it.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I have found over the years when people …

You asked the question:
I wonder if any of you believe we can live a sinless life. If you don’t what do you believe John was telling us?

Dan:
I have a good explanation that harmonizes what is said here that makes sense. What is your explanation. You brought it up.

 

[Smile1934]

You asked the question:
I wonder if any of you believe we can live a sinless life. If you don’t what do you believe John was telling us?

Dan:
I have a good explanation that harmonizes what is said here that makes sense. What is your explanation. You brought it up.

I am looking for peoples understanding of what John said. I then am questing their understanding.

Most people believe they are free to sin, and all that is needed is to ask forgiveness and Wow! They are back in the good graces of our Lord again. Well that may be true for those who don’t know God, but scripture does not say that for those who know God.

Jesus called us to be perfect. Why then don’t people try to understand what Jesus gave them to attain Jesus’ command?

 

[Dan_Parker]

I am looking for peoples understanding of what John said. I then am questing their understanding.

Most people believe they are free to sin, and all that is needed is to ask forgiveness and Wow! They are back in the good graces of our Lord again. Well that may be true for those who don’t know God, but scripture does not say that for those who know God.

Jesus called us to be perfect. Why then don’t people try to understand what Jesus gave them to attain Jesus’ command?

If you hold those sentiments, they why do you disagree that the text should be interpreted to mean not merely committing a sin one time, but continually sinning as in making a practice of it?

Do you understand what Jesus was saying? What do those words mean to you?

 

[Smile1934]

If you hold those sentiments, they why do you disagree that the text should be interpreted to mean not merely committing a sin one time, but continually sinning as in making a practice of it?

Do you understand what Jesus was saying? What do those words mean to you?

I know that Christians who know God are dead to sin. I also know that isn’t taught in the Christian Church today. I am trying to get people to think about how it is possible to live a sinless life.

You see I don’t think people have a clue of what Peter was saying to Ananias when he said he was lying to the Holy Spirit.

People who deliberately commit may only know of God, they do not know God.

 

[NHInsider]

We are called to live a sinless life - to be completely submitted to the will of God, and to be filled at all times with the Holy Spirit. Mary stands as the supreme example of this, which is why she is our model.

But, as St. Paul wrote, Thanks be to God - because even when we do what we know we ought not do, we can ask Him for forgiveness (Romans 7:14-25) - and as St. John writes at the end of the passage you cite, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and forgives our sins.

Neither of these writers, nor the writer of Hebrews, suggests for one minute that it is “okay” to sin - each one reminds us that we are called to holiness. As we submit to Him, we will become more like Him - but in this life, few will be perfected.

 

[Smile1934]

We are called to live a sinless life - to be completely submitted to the will of God, and to be filled at all times with the Holy Spirit. Mary stands as the supreme example of this, which is why she is our model.

But, as St. Paul wrote, Thanks be to God - because even when we do what we know we ought not do, we can ask Him for forgiveness (Romans 7:14-25) - and as St. John writes at the end of the passage you cite, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and forgives our sins.

Neither of these writers, nor the writer of Hebrews, suggests for one minute that it is “okay” to sin - each one reminds us that we are called to holiness. As we submit to Him, we will become more like Him - but in this life, few will be perfected.

Quoting Romans seven without quoting Romans eight, tells me you either don’t understand what Paul was telling us or you are trying to make people believe something that is not the truth.

Paul was telling us that he won the victory over sin/Satan through the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[NHInsider]

Are you truly claiming to be living a sin-free life? Or have you been seduced by the notion that your sins are “covered by the Blood” and therefore God “can’t see them?”

 

[Smile1934]

Are you truly claiming to be living a sin-free life? Or have you been seduced by the notion that your sins are “covered by the Blood” and therefore God “can’t see them?”

Is there a way to explain to you that I know what a sin is and that I know God, so there is no way I would deliberately commit a sin? It seems to me that you have made up your mind that a person can’t live a sinless life.

There is much scripture telling us that Christians are dead to sin. There is also scripture telling us that God’s people will hear his voice. If you won’t listen to me then ask Jesus. In fact even if you listen to me, ask Jesus if I am right or wrong.

 

[NHInsider]

Hmm. If St. Paul despaired of his ability to live a sinless life, I am certainly not going to presume that I can do so.

I would not say it cannot be done, because I do not believe that the Lord would ask us to do the impossible. I would only say that very few manage, in this life, the complete submission of the will and the flesh to the Holy Spirit.

 

[garysibio]

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; **anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. **My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

I wonder if any of you believe we can live a sinless life. If you don’t what do you believe John was telling us?

I don’t speak Greek so this is based on what I’ve heard from others. The verb ‘sin’ in that passage is in a tense which indicates a continual action. To paraphrase: “Anyone who lives in God does not lead a life of committing one sin after another and anyone who does live such a life hasn’t seen God and doesn’t know Him.”

 

[Smile1934]

Is there a way to explain to you that I know what a sin is and that I know God, so there is no way I would deliberately commit a sin? It seems to me that you have made up your mind that a person can’t live a sinless life.

There is much scripture telling us that Christians are dead to sin. There is also scripture telling us that God’s people will hear his voice. If you won’t listen to me then ask Jesus. In fact even if you listen to me, ask Jesus if I am right or wrong.

I wish people would stop quoting Romans seven, where Paul talks about how impossible it is to live a sinless life. Paul went through all that so he could explain, in Romans eight just how he won the victory over sin. Yet People just quote where Paul says one can’t live sinless.

 

[Smile1934]

I don’t speak Greek so this is based on what I’ve heard from others. The verb ‘sin’ in that passage is in a tense which indicates a continual action. To paraphrase: “Anyone who lives in God does not lead a life of committing one sin after another and anyone who does live such a life hasn’t seen God and doesn’t know Him.”

You don’t see it as odd that none of the translators of any English translations of the Word of God got it right?

You should read the rest of the New Testament letting the Holy Spirit guide you to an understanding of how a Christian is truly dead to sin.

 

[garysibio]

You don’t see it as odd that none of the translators of any English translations of the Word of God got it right?

You should read the rest of the New Testament letting the Holy Spirit guide you to an understanding of how a Christian is truly dead to sin.

I don’t normally use this translation but here’s how the Amplified Bible renders 1 John 3:6:

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains [e]in communion with and in obedience to Him–deliberately, knowingly, and [f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

Note where it says “habitually sins.”

Are you saying that you are without sin? If so, I would point you to 1 John 1:8:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Smile1934]

I don’t normally use this translation but here’s how the Amplified Bible renders 1 John 3:6:

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains [e]in communion with and in obedience to Him–deliberately, knowingly, and [f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

Note where it says “habitually sins.”

Are you saying that you are without sin? If so, I would point you to 1 John 1:8:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I use the Jerusalem, New Jerusalem, the New American, the new International, and the King James Bibles, and none of them use that wording.

Let me point out something to you. (1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. **To say that we have never sinned **is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”

Then John goes on to say: (1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. **Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. ** My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

[The following is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a very unique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin. [/COLOR]
The manner of birth from God within us is two-fold: the one bestows the grace of adoption, which is entirely present in potency in those who are born of God; the other introduces, wholly by active exertion, that grace which deliberately reorients the entire free choice of the one being born of God toward the God who gives birth. The first bears the grace, present in potency through faith alone; but the second, beyond, also engenders in the knower the sublimely divine likeness of the One known, that likeness being effected precisely through knowledge. Therefore the first manner of birth is observed in some because their will, not yet fully detached from its propensity to the flesh, has yet to be wholly endowed with the Spirit by participation in the divine mysteries that are made known through active endeavor. The inclination to sin does not disappear as long as they will it. For the Spirit does not give birth to an unwilling will, but converts the willing will toward deification. (So a person doesn’t stop sinning just because they will not to sin.) Whoever has participated in this deification through cognizance experience is incapable of reverting from right discernment in truth, once he has achieved this in action, to something else besides, which only pretends to be that same discernment. (Once a person comes to know God, through the Holy Spirit, they are incapable of reverting to their sinful ways.) It is like the eye, which, once it has looked upon the sun, cannot mistake it for the moon or any of the other stars in the heavens. With those undergoing the (second mode of) birth, the Holy Spirit takes the whole of their free choice and translates it completely from earth to heaven, and, through the true knowledge acquired by exertion, transfigures the mind with the blessed light rays of our God and Father, such that the mind is deemed another “God,” insofar as in its habitude if experiences, by grace, that which God himself does not experience but “is” in his very essence. With those undergoing this second mode of baptism, their free choice clearly becomes sinless in virtue and knowledge, as they are unable to negate what they have actively discerned through experience. So even if we have the Spirit of adoption, who is himself the Seed for enduring those begotten (through baptism) with the likeness of the Sower, but do not present him with a will cleansed of any inclination or disposition to something else, we therefore, even after being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5), willingly sin. But were we to prepare our will with knowledge to receive the operation of these agents-water and Spirit, I mean-then the mystical water would, through our practical life, cleanse our conscience, and the life-giving Spirit would bring about unchanging perfection of the good in us through knowledge acquired in experience. Precisely for that reason he leaves, to each of us who are still able to sin, the sheer desire to surrender our whole selves willing to the Spirit.

St. Maximus the Confessor

 

[garysibio]

I use the Jerusalem, New Jerusalem, the New American, the new International, and the King James Bibles, and none of them use that wording.

You said that no translators rendered it in the sense of being a continual act. I showed you one that did.

Let me point out something to you. (1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. **To say that we have never sinned **is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”

Verse 8 says “If we say we have no sin.” Present tense, right now. It does not say “If we say we have never had any sin.” You are twisting Scripture. You need to believe what was written, not what you wish was written.