1 John 5:13 question

[sandusky]

Tiny Montgomery:

yes, and indeed all forms of osas.

thus, 1 john must itself be interpreted within the larger context of the new testament, which makes clear it is possible to believe, and then fall away from belief. luke 8:13

or drift away. hebrews 2:1

or wander away. 1 timothy 6:10

or turn away from the faith. matthew 24:10

or be cast away, like a dead branch, once engrafted in the vine (Christ), but now withered. john 15:6

or be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 2 peter 3:17

Are those verses representative of what you consider to be the focus of the teaching of the larger context of the new testament on salvation?

Also, is repentance possible for those described in the above verses?
Tiny Montgomery:

furthermore, of this you can be sure:

No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
-galatians 5:5-7.

a real Christian can indeed commit these sins, and hence forfeit his inheritance.

Those are unbelievers Paul is talking about. What you’ve listed are verses 5-6 if we include the next two verses, the fuller point of Paul is shown:

Ephesians 5:7-8
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness,
but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

Paul’s point is: “you WERE…but {here comes the contrast} now you ARE…walk as you ARE.” The indicative/imperative. The present ongoing state of being of the believer is “Light in the Lord” (cf Eph 2:1-6).
Tiny Montgomery:

a real Christian can indeed commit these sins, and hence forfeit his inheritance. if one is immoral, impure or greedy he is not saved as his actions demonstrate a lack of saving faith at the moment, though he might have been truly saved in the past, and still presently professes to “believe”. but salvific belief must be a present-tense right belief and right action, as discussed in my prior post.

Saved by your works.

 

[sandusky]

Jemfinch:

Then what are we arguing about? If that’s your stance, somehow I’ve missed it amidst all the rehetoric, and for that, I apologize.

No argument; just answering the OP’s question. 1 Jn 5:13 states, without equivocation, that one may know, have the confidence, be assured, that they have eternal life.

jemfinch:

So do we still have an actual disagreement?

On 1 Jn 5:13, we do.

jemfinch:

Your stance seems similar to my former stance when I was a Calvinist (and went to great efforts to insist that “Perseverance of the Saints” was not synonymous with “Once Saved, Always Saved”). Do you hold now, as I held then, that salvation was never begun in those people in whom it does not finish?

I agree with Dort, and their five point reply to the five points of the remonstrance.

I do believe that the one who does not finish was never justified (Mt 24:13 etc.); I also believe that I can know with assurance, that I am presently saved forever; and I know that I can make a strong and reasoned defense of my beliefs without the need of consulting other than the biblical texts.

Doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t let you buy me cup of coffee if you disagree.

 

[sandusky]

mercygate:

Here is case for the dignity of the human person in relation to Jesus Christ, not taken from “an apologetics web site” but a perosnal reflection on God’s mercy:

We are commanded to love God – as Our Lord reminds us in Mt. 22. Genesis tells us that God made man in his own image, a rational creature, and in Deuteronomy God commands us to love him. In order to love, we must be free. We must be capable of not loving. We must be capable of exercising the choice to turn away from God. If we recognize Christ for Who he IS, and enter his covenant we are not still capable of turning away, we would not need to pray the prayer he himself gave us that our sins be forgiven, and that we not be led into temptation.

The weight of Scripture clearly points to the need of our conscious cooperation in the works of grace, given to us by the Holy Spirit, and to the possibility that we can, of our own free will, remove ourselves from the mercy of God. Love is an ongoing, active choice; love is a relationship of affirmation.

So for you, the basis of human dignity is free will; is that correct?

I believe that being made in the image of God includes the fact that every human being acts freely, and voluntarily; and reading the way that you have stated your thoughts on free will, we have differences with respect to how each of us understands free will; but the notion of free will and the fact that John states in 1 Jn 5:13, that one can know that he has eternal life, harmonizes perfectly.

Surely John knows, perhaps better than we know, about the will of the creature, and the statements about falling away, and drifting away, and wandering away that Tiny presented; would you agree that is a possibility?

And yet, knowing that, John clearly states the purpose of his writing is so that the one in Christ may know, with “a settled intuitive knowledge” as Robertson translates it, that he possesses eternal life.

“A settled intuitive knowledge” certainly squares with “the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God (Rom 8:16);” doesn’t it?

My concern is that you don’t know, and I say that with humility.

mercygate:

Coda: A friend of mine who works as a volunteer counselor with Billy Graham ministries tells me that the rate of perseverance among those who answer the call to come forward is less than five percent.

I am not at all surprised. It is always few; seven thousand (1 Kgs 19:18), one-tenth (Is 6:13), few.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I do believe that the one who does not finish was never justified (Mt 24:13 etc.); I also believe that I can know with assurance, that I am presently saved forever;.

*Presently. *That’s not the same as I thought you were implying, my apologies. But that is a limited assurance because (as many of the verses warned against) what if you were to fall away again after having already believed?

 

[sandusky]

*Presently. *That’s not the same as I thought you were implying, my apologies. But that is a limited assurance because (as many of the verses warned against) what if you were to fall away again after having already believed?

Sorry for the confusion; my bad.

Unambiguously stated, I have an absolute assurance; I have no doubt.

In spite of all of the warnings and admonitions to the contrary, I believe in election/predestination/perseverance to salvation. It is all of God, and none of me.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Sorry for the confusion; my bad.

Unambiguously stated, I have an absolute assurance; I have no doubt.

In spite of all of the warnings and admonitions to the contrary, I believe in election/predestination/perseverance to salvation. It is all of God, and none of me.

The Church teaches predestination as well, it’s just different than how the Calvanistic view expresses it.

I must admit though, predestination is not one of my strong points.

 

[mikeledes]

James 5:19-20 states:

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and, and someone turns him back. Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

Notice that it starts off by saying that if “anyone among YOU (Christians) wanders from the truth and somone turns him back”. This is clearly talking about a Christian sinner. Someone who has experienced Christian truth and a relationship with Jesus. Otherwise, how can he be brought back to something he or she never had to begin with. Verse 20 makes it clear that the person was at risk of losing his or her soul.

John 5:15 states:

“And if we know that he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of him.”

So if I am a saved person and I pray to God, I KNOW that I will have my prayers answered. Of course, all of us have had our prayers answered by God. We always get from him what we ask, right? I don’t think so. Remember, the “know” used in this verse is the same “know” used in the verse in question. This clearly indicates that John uses know to mean “confidence”, not absolute assurance or a guarantee.

2 CORINTHIANS 6:1

“We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.”

How can we possibly receive the grace of God in vain? By losing our salvation! There is no other explanation. If a Christian continues to live the life of a heathen, then, according to OSOS, that person was never really saved and thus never received God’s grace to begin with. So he could not have receive the grace of God in vain. Only a person who is saved can receive the grace of God in vain.

God Bless

 

[ALLFORHIM]

James 5:19-20 states:

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and, and someone turns him back. Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

Notice that it starts off by saying that if “anyone among YOU (Christians) wanders from the truth and somone turns him back”. This is clearly talking about a Christian sinner. Someone who has experienced Christian truth and a relationship with Jesus. Otherwise, how can he be brought back to something he or she never had to begin with. Verse 20 makes it clear that the person was at risk of losing his or her soul.

John 5:15 states:

“And if we know that he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of him.”

So if I am a saved person and I pray to God, I KNOW that I will have my prayers answered. Of course, all of us have had our prayers answered by God. We always get from him what we ask, right? I don’t think so. Remember, the “know” used in this verse is the same “know” used in the verse in question. This clearly indicates that John uses know to mean “confidence”, not absolute assurance or a guarantee.

2 CORINTHIANS 6:1

“We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.”

How can we possibly receive the grace of God in vain? By losing our salvation! There is no other explanation. If a Christian continues to live the life of a heathen, then, according to OSOS, that person was never really saved and thus never received God’s grace to begin with. So he could not have receive the grace of God in vain.

Only a person who is saved can receive the grace of God in vain.

 

[mikeledes]

There also another definition of vain and that is “futile, to no effect, no purpose.” This is how it is used in the text.

God Bless

 

[ALLFORHIM]

There also another definition of vain and that is “futile, to no effect, no purpose.” This is how it is used in the text.

God Bless

Hi,

OOPS I didnt mean to send that message. I thought I canceled it.
Anyway, I agree with what you say as well.

AFH

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

Are those verses representative of what you consider to be the focus of the teaching of the larger context of the new testament on salvation?

well, i think those verses are integral to a proper understanding of new testament teaching on salvation. and i believe those verses (among others) refute osas (of any kind).

Also, is repentance possible for those described in the above verses?

absolutely, up to the very moment of death. but there is no guarantee it will come about.

Those are unbelievers Paul is talking about.

the first 20 odd verses of ephesians 5 are clearly aimed at Christians, starting with the first verse in the chapter.

much of this section (verses 3-18) is aimed at warning the ephesians about the kind of sinful behavior they must avoid (e.g., “do not get drunk on wine”), and the consequences for them if they choose to engage in such behavior.

similar warnings are found in 1 corinthians 6:9-10 and galatians 5:19-21. see also mark 9:42-48.

now, yes, as you note, in ephesians 5 paul is writing to Christians who “now are light in the Lord.” he is not accusing them of currently practicing gross immorality (i.e., drunkenness, debauchery, etc.).

BUT: you don’t warn someone unless there’s a real risk – in this case, a risk of falling into sin that will result in not having any inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Saved by your works.

no, but: faith without works is dead (i.e., not salvific). james 2:17, 26.

john essentially makes the same point in 1 john 2:3-4 and 1 john 3:10.

 

[RCCDefender]

John 5:15 states:

“And if we know that he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of him.”

So if I am a saved person and I pray to God, I KNOW that I will have my prayers answered. Of course, all of us have had our prayers answered by God. We always get from him what we ask, right? I don’t think so. Remember, the “know” used in this verse is the same “know” used in the verse in question. This clearly indicates that John uses know to mean “confidence”, not absolute assurance or a guarantee.
God Bless

This is a bad analogy because we can know that our prayers are answered. We may not get the answer we were wanting, but He still answers. In fact, one of my favorite poems is titled And God said, “No”.

 

[mikeledes]

This is a bad analogy because we can know that our prayers are answered. We may not get the answer we were wanting, but He still answers. In fact, one of my favorite poems is titled And God said, “No”.

The New American Translation of the Text states:

“And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked for is ours.”

It’s not saying that God can respond “no.” It seems to say that whatever we ask we shall receive. Since we know that this is not always the case, then John must be using the word “know” not in a absolute sense, as in guaranteed, but as the equivalent of “confidence.” Similarly, when John uses “know” in reference to eternal life, he is expressing great confidence and referring to the present tense, not to an absolute assurance or a guaranteed future. The first letter of John centers on two basic themes, belief and love . If we continue to live a life of faith and love, we know we have eternal life (1 John 3:23-24). Just as we KNOW that if we have access to oxygen, we will not asphyxiate. But if we chose to throw ourselves into the ocean without an oxygen tank, thus entering a realm in which we cannot breathe on our own, then we shall surely die. As long as we live a life of faith and love, we KNOW that we have eternal life. If we reject this life by chosing to sin against God and neighbor, then we KNOW that we will lose it.

God Bless