1. Pet. 2:24

[fineca]

Says Jesus bore/offered our sins on the cross… but doesn’t the Catholic dogma contradict this in denying penal substitution and affirming that Christ offered himself as a sin offering…? How are our sins in Christ or how does he bear/offer our sins without this being penal substitution?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Says Jesus bore/offered our sins on the cross… but doesn’t the Catholic dogma contradict this in denying penal substitution and affirming that Christ offered himself as a sin offering…? How are our sins in Christ or how does he bear/offer our sins without this being penal substitution?

Could you rephrase “penal substitution” or perhaps rephrase your question? I don’t understand what you are asking. What Catholic teaching are you saying contradicts this verse?

 

[fineca]

Well penal substitution is the idea that God imputed our sins to Christ who bore them in his flesh and since he was in this way “sinful” he was punished by God on the cross.

But according to Catholic dogma as I understand it Jesus offered his own life as a pleasing sacrifice to God to appease his wrath and merit his grace for us. 1. Pet. 2:24 however is used by Protestants to support penal substitution and I would like to understand it better from a Catholic perspective. Sungenis points out that the verb “bore/offered” is a sacrificial term which it is but it says he bore our sins, not himself…

 

[jlucko]

Let me rephrase your question to make sure I understand it:
You are asking about purgatory and why people must suffer there if Jesus already paid the price for our sins?

The best way I have heard it explained is that if you break your neighbor’s window, he can forgive you but it is still your obligation to pay to have his window replaced.

So too Christ died so our sins may be forgiven, that is God’s mercy. But God is also infinitely just, so out of justice we must make up for our sins.

The reality behind it all is that God is perfect and to be in Heaven is to enter into a union with God. But since God must always be perfect, you cannot join something imperfect to Him. Just as if you join clean water and dirty water together you get dirty water, not clean. So you can only join God in Heaven if you are perfect.

But since none of us die perfect, if there was no purgatory we would have no chance of attaining Heaven. Therefor purgatory is a gift from God where we die to our desires and self-love and become perfect - perfect beings of love.

1 1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

2 1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect.

3 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

4 2 Corinthians 13:11
For the rest, brethren, rejoice, be perfect, take exhortation, be of one mind, have peace; and the God of peace and of love shall be with you.

5 2 Samuel 22:24
And I shall be perfect with him: and shall keep myself from my iniquity.

6 2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

7 Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect, and without spot before the Lord thy God.

8 Ephesians 6:13
Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.

9 Genesis 17:1
And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect.

10 James 1:4
And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing.

11 John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

12 Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master.

13 Matthew 19:21
Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

14 Matthew 5:48
Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[unacanta]

Let me rephrase your question to make sure I understand it:
You are asking about purgatory and why people must suffer there if Jesus already paid the price for our sins?

The best way I have heard it explained is that if you break your neighbor’s window, he can forgive you but it is still your obligation to pay to have his window replaced.

So too Christ died so our sins may be forgiven, that is God’s mercy. But God is also infinitely just, so out of justice we must make up for our sins.

I suppose that would be true concerning my neighbor’s window. Since it is God’s window in which we have broken, then we can not apply the human’s concept of justice to that of our Lord.

[SIGN]Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/SIGN]

There are other scriptures, however this one clearly takes away any punishment which is still do us as sinners.

How about
[SIGN]Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west,So far has He removed our transgressions from us.[/SIGN]

If our sins (transgressions) are removed from us how can we be held accountable for them?

The whole idea of God saying I forgive you but now you must make attonement for the sin is out side the scope of forgive.

[SIGN]Hebrews 8:12
" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."[/SIGN]

If God doesn’t remember our sins, then how can He punish us for them.

[SIGN]Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[/SIGN]

Remember wrath is against the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men not necessarily the men themselves.

[SIGN]Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.[/SIGN]

Re-read the Book of Romans RCC, it seems to be address to you

I forgive you really means I forgive you. We live under grace, not grace and punishment.

Sola Gratia

Blessings,
Len

 

[juliamajor]

I suppose that would be true concerning my neighbor’s window. Since it is God’s window in which we have broken, then we can not apply the human’s concept of justice to that of our Lord.

[SIGN]Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/SIGN]

There are other scriptures, however this one clearly takes away any punishment which is still do us as sinners.

How about
[SIGN]Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west,So far has He removed our transgressions from us.[/SIGN]

If our sins (transgressions) are removed from us how can we be held accountable for them?

The whole idea of God saying I forgive you but now you must make attonement for the sin is out side the scope of forgive.

[SIGN]Hebrews 8:12
" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."[/SIGN]

If God doesn’t remember our sins, then how can He punish us for them.

[SIGN]Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[/SIGN]

Remember wrath is against the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men not necessarily the men themselves.

[SIGN]Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.[/SIGN]

Re-read the Book of Romans RCC, it seems to be address to you

I forgive you really means I forgive you. We live under grace, not grace and punishment.

Sola Gratia

Blessings,
Len

Oh Lord here we go again!!" There is nothing new under the sun" Eccl:9 Heard it all before

 

[MarcoPolo]

Re-read the Book of Romans RCC, it seems to be address to you

It’s addressed to all of us. I don’t know much about you, but often I notice that Protestants misunderstand the book of Romans’ theme that not only Jews are the chosen people, but also Gentiles.

Anyway, could you summarize your point? I don’t disagree with any of the Scripture you cited, yet still understand the necessity of Purgatory. If I need to interpret certain passages or cite my own, I certainly can.

 

[BlestOne]

[1425](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1425.htm’) "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."9 One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ."10 But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."11 And the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses,"12 linking our forgiveness of one another’s offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.
[1426](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1426.htm’) *Conversion *to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of *conversion *directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15
1485 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week,” Jesus showed himself to his apostles. “He breathed on them, and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”’ (*Jn *20:19, 22-23).
1486 The forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism is conferred by a particular sacrament called the sacrament of conversion, confession, penance, or reconciliation.
1487 The sinner wounds God’s honor and love, his own human dignity as a man called to be a son of God, and the spiritual well-being of the Church, of which each Christian ought to be a living stone.
1488 To the eyes of faith no evil is graver than sin and nothing has worse consequences for sinners themselves, for the Church, and for the whole world.
1489 To return to communion with God after having lost it through sin is a process born of the grace of God who is rich in mercy and solicitous for the salvation of men. One must ask for this precious gift for oneself and for others.
1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God’s mercy.

 

[fineca]

WHAT on EARTH are you all talking about? Who ever said anything about Purgatory?!?!?! My question was how to understand 1. Pet. 2:24 apart from penal substitution!

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Says Jesus bore/offered our sins on the cross… but doesn’t the Catholic dogma contradict this in denying penal substitution and affirming that Christ offered himself as a sin offering…? How are our sins in Christ or how does he bear/offer our sins without this being penal substitution?

Hi fineca.

No, the Catholic Church does not deny Christ’s substitution for us.

Paragraph 615 of the catechism states:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:19.) By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin,” when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. (Isa. 53:10-12) *Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father. *

Chris

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I will try to put this is a way that makes sense of the Church’s language. This is my digesting of the Church’s teaching, including her Scriptures. If it contains errors, they are mine and I would appreciate help to correct them. If it contains truth, then it is the truth taught by the Church and no credit to me.

When man sinned, three evils entered the world: Adam – and any sinner – separated his will from the will of God in two ways: the sinner does things which God did not intend; the sinner also acts from a source (the human self) which is other than God; in addition to this twofold separation of man from the will of God, the consequences of sin, suffering, death, alienation, pain, etc., are contrary to God’s will. It was in these three ways that man was made “unacceptable” to God: men did what God did not will, from a source other than God’s will, and man suffered and died, which God did not will.

These are the (fundamental) “problems” which the Savior had to resolve in order to effect salvation. They required more than one action to repair.

The problem of men doing things not willed by God is addressed by the Law and Jesus’ teachings completing the Law. These commands, completed in Jesus’ and the Saints’ living examples, tell men what to do. This, however, is not enough, since it leaves the other two problems unsolved: even if fully complying with the will of God, as was possible under the Old Testament, man would still be acting from a source of will (his self) other than God; further suffering, pain, and death would still exist and offend God.

The question of the Crucifixion is intertwined with the solutions to these two remaining problems. However, the question of “penal substitution” focuses on the second, the problem of suffering and death.

Grace is the life of God. Grace is the Persons of the Trinity fully and completely loving one another. Every act by any Person of the Trinity is part of this life of God. This is easiest for us to talk about by focusing on individual Persons with phrases like, “The Father loves the Son,” and “The Son loves the Father,” however, the truth of the matter is that the Trinity is united in this grace and phrases like “God made the world for His own glory,” are also true expressions of this love. I find it more helpful in most company, however, to translate that last statement into “The Father made the world as a gift for the Son and the Son seeks to sanctify the world as a fitting gift from Him to the Father.”

Sin itself cannot be made compatible with God’s will, because by its very definition it is a separation from the will of God. Hence, sin itself could not be “redeemed” by any means. Sinning cannot be reconciled with God’s will.

The consequences of sin, however, though separate from God’s will in themselves, were redeemed. This is a primary work accomplished by Jesus’ Passion and Death on the Cross. By voluntarily becoming a victim of sin, by intentionally undertaking suffering, rejection, humiliation, abuse, torture, and death, Jesus took up these things which had been repugnant to God and transformed them into an expression of love from the Son to the Father. Jesus took “victimhood” which had previously been an offense to God and made it into a means of expressing the love of one Person of the Trinity for the others; He redeemed the consequences of man’s sin, by changing them into conduits of grace, that is eternal life.

Not as a “penal substitution,” namely suffering to pay a judicial debt on behalf of others, but by converting suffering itself from an abomination to an expression of love for God, Jesus opened the way for sinful man to enter into the grace of God. This was not a juridical fiction, but an ontological change – a thing which had been by its very nature an offense was turned into something which can be a conduit of grace.

Jesus solved the third problem, the actual separation of the source of man’s will from God, by founding and maintaining the Church and by instituting the Holy Mass and the other Sacraments.

Thus the salvation of man consists in three solutions, remedying the three categories of evil resulting from sin: the teachings and commands of the New Law allow man to do what God wills; the Passion of Christ allows man to love God by offering suffering to God in imitation of Jesus; and the Church and Sacraments allow man to act in Christ and to join human love for God to the actual love of the Son for the Father, thus reuniting man’s will and life to sanctifying grace, the eternal and abundant life of the Holy Trinity. Together, these three accomplish God’s will in creating man and thus effect salvation.

I hope this is helpful. I would be glad to explore its consistency with the specifics of particular teachings of the Church, including the details of the Scriptures, if that would be useful.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[fineca]

Thank you for some good insights, but let’s go back to 1.Pet. 2:24 and try to understand what it means…
The Church doesn’t deny substitution, it is true, but the Church means substitution by representation rather than replacement, since the Church has never taught that God punished Christ in our place or that Christ paid for our sins in the sense that the Protestants believe, suffering the torments of hell and bearing the legal punishment for our sins… sooo my point iiis, in what sense do we understand that Christ “bore” our sins, if we don’t believe that our sins were imputed to him in the sense that he became sinful so that God punished him…

 

[MarcoPolo]

in what sense do we understand that Christ “bore” our sins, if we don’t believe that our sins were imputed to him in the sense that he became sinful so that God punished him…

It seems a bit of a mystery to me…but you can read the Church’s words in Catechism #603:*Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all”, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.*I understand it to mean Christ’s humanity was enough for Him to be able to expiate our sins (cf. 1 John 4:10). My take is this: consider how our own suffering has value for the Body of Christ (eg. 1 Cor 12:26, Eph 3:13). Paul was specific that through his and Timothy’s suffering, that there was a salvific effect toward his readers (2 Cor 1:6). Yet we know the finite capacity of Paul, in his imperfect nature. Therefore the suffering of Christ, who is of perfect innocence, is that which atones for all of mankind forever, and enables the suffering of those in Him to have merit and all of us the capacity to be saved.

 

[John_Hiner]

It seems a bit of a mystery to me…but you can read the Church’s words in Catechism #603:*Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all”, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.*I understand it to mean Christ’s humanity was enough for Him to be able to expiate our sins (cf. 1 John 4:10). My take is this: consider how our own suffering has value for the Body of Christ (eg. 1 Cor 12:26, Eph 3:13). Paul was specific that through his and Timothy’s suffering, that there was a salvific effect toward his readers (2 Cor 1:6). Yet we know the finite capacity of Paul, in his imperfect nature. Therefore the suffering of Christ, who is of perfect innocence, is that which atones for all of mankind forever, and enables the suffering of those in Him to have merit and all of us the capacity to be saved.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear MarcoPolo et al.:

In addition to the notion of “greater capacity” I would suggest that there is an ontological difference and therefore an absolute reason for Jesus’ Incarnation. By “ontological” I mean a difference that depends directly on who Jesus is. Grace is the life of the Trinity; love of man for God is not grace; “In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins,” (1 Jn 4:10).

Only a Person of the Trinity could integrate suffering and death into the repertoire, so to speak, of expressions of divine love. For me to love God or to love man does not save. It is only Jesus’ love for God which could save, because that is the very life of God – the one absolutely permanent and indestructible reality.

God wills that all of creation serve Christ by being useful to Him in His activity of loving God the Father. So, in order that the fallen-human realities of suffering and death not be permanent offenses against God’s will, only a Person of the Trinity could “take on” suffering and death and make them His own, so that they ceased to be contrary to God’s will and become expressions of sanctifying grace. These human things, suffering and death, are the “consequences of our sin,” which Christ took on Himself. Not as a punishment in a willful or “legalistic” sense, but in the sense of necessary consequences of the evil of man’s separation of his will from God’s will.

For anyone else to voluntarily suffer would not have solved the problem. Any given person’s love would flow from that person as its source. It is only a Person of the Trinity’s love for God which is divine life. Christ’s generous gift to us was to redeem the evil effects we had caused (and continue to cause) and to take them up into the expressions of love within the Trinity itself. Thus a thing which we made through our sins and which we could not unmake or make good, since nothing which we could do could make the source of the action other than ourselves, was taken up by Christ and made into sanctifying grace itself.

Only Jesus, as the Son of the Living God, could sanctify suffering and death. Only His Passion could make these things which man must suffer, because some men have chosen to sin, into things that can be done for the love of Christ for God.

[Jesus] who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls. (1 Pt 2:24-25.)

I hope this is helpful.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[unacanta]

It’s addressed to all of us. I don’t know much about you, but often I notice that Protestants misunderstand the book of Romans’ theme that not only Jews are the chosen people, but also Gentiles.

Anyway, could you summarize your point? I don’t disagree with any of the Scripture you cited, yet still understand the necessity of Purgatory. If I need to interpret certain passages or cite my own, I certainly can.

Here is the original link to summerize my point:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2754043&postcount=5

I was responding to jlucko post stating:

**Originally Posted by jlucko
Let me rephrase your question to make sure I understand it:
You are asking about purgatory and why people must suffer there if Jesus already paid the price for our sins?

The best way I have heard it explained is that if you break your neighbor’s window, he can forgive you but it is still your obligation to pay to have his window replaced.

So too Christ died so our sins may be forgiven, that is God’s mercy. But God is also infinitely just, so out of justice we must make up for our sins. **

Given that the above is the understanding of the RCC, I think a read of Romans and what Paul had to say is in order.

Blessings,
Len

 

[MarcoPolo]

Given that the above is the understanding of the RCC, I think a read of Romans and what Paul had to say is in order.

Blessings,
Len

Perhaps you could be more specific as to what Catholic teaching you think contradicts Romans? I’ve never seen one, and generically telling me to read Romans and Paul doesn’t help.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Says Jesus bore/offered our sins on the cross… but doesn’t the Catholic dogma contradict this in denying penal substitution and affirming that Christ offered himself as a sin offering…? How are our sins in Christ or how does he bear/offer our sins without this being penal substitution?

How does the CC deny penal substitution ? ​

It denies that the righteousness of Christians is an imputed righteousness - but that does not mean that it denies that our unrighteousness was imputed to Christ, & was really born by Him; nothing requires it to, AFAIK or CS. As He “was made sin” for us, it is hard to see how the CC possibly could deny penal substitution. I don’t see what in His being a sin offering for us stops Him being our Substitute as well. Or is one overlooking something ?

 

[fineca]

The second mistake is the tendency to treat the Passion of Christ as being literally a case of vicarious punishment. This is at best a distorted view of the truth that His Atoning Sacrifice took the place of our punishment, and that He took upon Himself the sufferings and death that were due to our sins.
(Catholic Encyclopedia)

Also the CCC passage cited above said that Christ did not suffer reprobation as if he had himself sinned. That is how the CC denies penal substitution. But if understood correctly we can say he became sin and a curse and bore our sins, as the same CCC passage explains (CCC 603)

 

[unacanta]

Perhaps you could be more specific as to what Catholic teaching you think contradicts Romans? I’ve never seen one, and generically telling me to read Romans and Paul doesn’t help.

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

**Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one manâ s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. **

Now observer the following taught by the RCC:

vatican.va/holy_father/pa…ctrina_en.html

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
OF POPE PAUL VI

INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA

WHEREBY THE REVISION
OF SACRED INDULGENCES IS PROMULGATED

My first point is from the Chapter 1 second and third paragraph:

1. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments.(4) Therefore it has always been the conviction of the faithful that the paths of evil are fraught with many stumbling blocks and bring adversities, bitterness and harm to those who follow them.(5)

Note:
My text in bold from Scripture. Italics from RCC teaching on Indulgences.

If we are “justified freely by His grace” then why does the church teach our sins must be *expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities *?

1. It is therefore necessary for the full remission andâ as it is calledâ reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense against his wisdom and goodness, but also that all the personal as well as social values and those of the universal order itself, which have been diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully reintegrated whether through voluntary reparation which will involve punishment or through acceptance of the punishments established by the just and most holy wisdom of God, from which there will shine forth throughout the world the sanctity and the splendor of his glory. The very existence and the gravity of the punishment enable us to understand the foolishness and malice of sin and its harmful consequences.

Now observe the following Scripture:
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

RCC Indulgences teach:

*It is therefore necessary for the full remission andâ as it is calledâ reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense *

If grace is not by works as the RCC teaches, then what amends can be made or even should be made? NONE.

As I said, the book of Romans seems to be address to the RCC. Though we all can learn of God’s grace from Romans, when the Churches teaches something else than what Paul taught we have a major problem, do we not?

May the Lord be honored in all we do.
Len

 

[fineca]

Read the 2nd letter of Peter (chapter 3), it seems to be addressed to you