1 Samuel 1:5-- contradictory translations!

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The exact meaning of the Hebrew is really uncertain. The translators of the NET give insight in a footnote:
3 tn The exact sense of the Hebrew word אַפָּיִם ('appayim, “two faces”) is not certain here. It is most likely used with the preceding expression (“one portion of two faces”) to mean a portion double than normally received. Although evidence for this use of the word derives primarily from Aramaic rather than from Hebrew usage, it provides an understanding that fits the context here better than other suggestions for the word do. The meaning “double” is therefore adopted in the present translation. Other possibilities for the meaning of the word include the following: “heavily” (cf. Vulgate, tristis) and “worthy” or “choice” (cf. KJV and Targum). Some scholars have followed the Septuagint (LXX) here, emending the word to אֶפֶס ('efes) and translating it as “but” or “however.” This seems unnecessary. The translators of the Septuagint (LXX) may simply have been struggling to make sense of the word rather than following a Hebrew text that was different from the Masoretic Text (MT) here.
The RSV’s handling of the verse is a bit unusual for they change the order of the parts of the sentence, in addition to going with a meaning that is different from most groups.

And if you are wondering here’s the English from the Septuagint.
1Sa 1:5 Complete Apostles’ Bible
(5) And to Anna he gave a prime portion, because she had no child, only Elkanah loved Anna more than the other; but the Lord had closed her womb.

JJ
 
The exact meaning of the Hebrew is really uncertain. The translators of the NET give insight in a footnote:

The RSV’s handling of the verse is a bit unusual for they change the order of the parts of the sentence, in addition to going with a meaning that is different from most groups.

And if you are wondering here’s the English from the Septuagint.
1Sa 1:5 Complete Apostles’ Bible
(5) And to Anna he gave a prime portion, because she had no child, only Elkanah loved Anna more than the other; but the Lord had closed her womb.

JJ
***Hi, JJ!

Thanks for the info…

…I till have a problem with the text:
  • Anna did not have a child till years after that pactice.
  • Elkanah loving Anna more than the other is not because Yahweh had closed her womb.
  • A double/prime portion should not be because she was baren but because he loved her more.
  • Having a double/prime portion would only exacerbate the hostilities Anna suffered at the hands of Peninnah, whose intolerant torments was centered on her infertility.
  • Conversely, the other version does demonstrate that Anna would receive only her portion because Elkanah, inspite of loving her more, respected what was prescribed by Scripture.
Maran atha!

Angel***
 
The Latin ‘diligebat’ as I thought – appears to be related to diligent in english – a love which has some type of perseverence associated with it. Whether the connotation is dutiful or sacrificial I am uncertain – After examining several passages, I am not sure Fr. Z’s assertions are all that useful. It certainly shows up in places where sacrifice is not the first thing that comes to my mind: eg: 1Kings (Sam) 18:28 – Michol later is quite NON-loving toward David.

The word does appear in relation to Jonathan and David which is part of a sequence in the Greek which are related to ‘favor’ or charity which is a different nuance altogether.

Right now, I am thinking that ‘diligebat’ means a love borne, or founded during persecution of some kind. I’m going to bump voco proTat… and see if he knows anything useful.
 
Right now, I am thinking that ‘diligebat’ means a love borne, or founded during persecution of some kind. I’m going to bump voco proTat… and see if he knows anything useful.
***Hi, Huiou Theou!

…this does enhance the text: Anna could have had enjoyed a natural unriquited love from Elkanah which, due to her circumstances, could have intensified into that described by ‘diligebat.’

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
The RSV’s handling of the verse is a bit unusual for they change the order of the parts of the sentence, in addition to going with a meaning that is different from most groups.

And if you are wondering here’s the English from the Septuagint.
1Sa 1:5 Complete Apostles’ Bible
(5) And to Anna he gave a prime portion, because she had no child, only Elkanah loved Anna more than the other; but the Lord had closed her womb.

JJ
This is the RSV: (one sentence).
“and although he loved Hannah, he would give Hannah only one portion, because the Lord had closed her womb.”

Could you explain your thoughts a little more?

------ My thoughts -----
I don’t have the Vatican’s or Tischendorf’s copy of this passage,
but a literal word order preserved translation (hyper-hyper literal)
of a commonly available Greek text goes this way:

1Samu 1:5 LXX
και τ-η*** `ανν-α ε-δω-κ-ε-ν μεριδ-α μιαν
and to-the Hanna [he]-has-kept-given/3Pf portion, one/fist,
and to Hanna he has given one/first portion

`οτι ουκ ην αυτ-η*** παιδι-ον πλην
because not had-been/were/3sImpf to-her/Ds child/A except/prep
that had not been to-her child except

οτι τ-ην ανν-αν ηγαπα `ελκανα υπερ ταυτ-ην
that the/A Hanna ? Helkana hyper/beyond this/As+
that the Hanna-n agapa(love/prefer) Helkana beyond this(female)

και κυρι-ος απε-κλει-σ-εν τα περι τ-ην μητρ-αν αυτ-ης
and Lord/Ns ?closed?/3Aor the/NA around/concerning the/As matron/womb of-her
and a Lord ?closed? the concerning the womb of her

*** Note:The text I use does not distinguish between η and ῃ which affects the possible cases of the marked word. The word is either in the nominative, or the dative, and always singular feminine. So it is either a feminine subject or to-a-feminine clause. I assume the latter.

Some notes:
The word for ‘love’ in the Greek is the selfless version – agapa.

English translations always seem to want to say that Helkanah loved Hannah more than another woman – but that is a very contorted reading of the Greek. The other examples I can find show that Hannah loves (agapa) Helkanah beyond (something else). There is a definite article at the beginning of the clause την – which could be used like a pronoun – Her. If so, there is a female exception to the child – which agrees with the “something else” – eg: Hannah had a girl, but not a boy.
Otherwise, the sentence seems to say that Hannah loved/preferred Helkanah beyond another female (rival? or perhaps the bearing of children altogether? ).

The Greek phrasing is really peculiar here, and it does support the idea of a female child. The Greek uses the word ‘except’ rather than the standard ‘but’ – and exceptions are to lists of things – in this case the list is just ‘child’ (either sex) – So I would expect the exception to also be a ‘child’ of some kind, in this case a female.

A couple of possibilities open up here: By analogy:
Sarah was Abraham’s wife of promise in preference to Hagar – there are two ways this comes about: First, Sarah was a closer kinswoman being of the same father as Abraham (or grandfather since father refers to ALL fathers.) which we know makes her preferred to Hagar who was a foreign Egyptian and a slave woman (παιδισκ-η) – so Sarah was considered the wife according to God’s preferred double blessing.

But now I have another idea — A firstborn daughter did not inherit the special messianic blessing and is ignored in the promise to Adam and Eve – however, I am not certain that having a female child would not have opened up a legal loophole as to which mother’s son deserved the double portion (eg: who is the real/first wife of Helkanah) – as Abraham and Sarah and Hagar show, since Hagar could be cast out and not receive the double portion of the physical inheritance – so does the issue arise here.

Hence bitter rivalry between women who were lawyers over who got the inheritance – just like Sarah and Hagar, but perhaps for a different reason.
 
***Hi, Huiou Theou!

…this does enhance the text: Anna could have had enjoyed a natural unriquited love from Elkanah which, due to her circumstances, could have intensified into that described by ‘diligebat.’

Maran atha!

Angel***
Yes, I am encouraged by your general idea – although the “direction” of love is something to consider, as both the Latin and the Greek appear to show the same order – (H)Anna loves.
In Greek, (H)Elkana is explicitly the target of Anna’s selfless love in the Greek. The latin implies, but does not explicitly state Elkana.

ProVocoTatiano pointed out something quite supportive of your general thinking as – “diligebat” – is in the imperfect tense in Latin. So the diligent love being described is an incomplete love of some kind.

Literally: “Anna was loving [dilligently].” as opposed to [amorously]. etc.
 
Jolly Joe,
I’m sorry my English thoughts are so scattered – I know these things I say are hard to follow sometimes – pick what I say apart, perhaps others will understand better if I am forced to clarify things…

😦
 
…A couple of possibilities open up here: By analogy:
Sarah was Abraham’s wife of promise in preference to Hagar – there are two ways this comes about: First, Sarah was a closer kinswoman being of the same father as Abraham (or grandfather since father refers to ALL fathers.) which we know makes her preferred to Hagar who was a foreign Egyptian and a slave woman (παιδισκ-η) – so Sarah was considered the wife according to God’s preferred double blessing.

But now I have another idea — A firstborn daughter did not inherit the special messianic blessing and is ignored in the promise to Adam and Eve – however, I am not certain that having a female child would not have opened up a legal loophole as to which mother’s son deserved the double portion (eg: who is the real/first wife of Helkanah) – as Abraham and Sarah and Hagar show, since Hagar could be cast out and not receive the double portion of the physical inheritance – so does the issue arise here…
***Hi, Huiou Theou!

…consider too that it is Yahweh who determines that Sarah’s offspring is the child of the Promise… conversely, we find that very example with Hanna’s–though Peninnah had had several children (one of whom could have been a male child), Yahweh determines that Hanna’s first-born would inherit the Promise (ditto with Jacob and Ephraim). Hanna’s devotion to the Lord caused her not to become embittered but to ask for His deliverance… and the floodgates were opened–little did she know what awaited her! :cool:

Maran atha!

Angel

 
Jolly Joe,
I’m sorry my English thoughts are so scattered – I know these things I say are hard to follow sometimes – pick what I say apart, perhaps others will understand better if I am forced to clarify things…

😦
From the Douay-Rheims:

4 Now the day came, and Elcana offered sacrifice, and gave to Phenenna, his wife, and to all her sons and daughters, portions: 5 But to Anna he gave one portion with sorrow, because he loved Anna. And the Lord had shut up her womb. 6 Her rival also afflicted her, and troubled her exceedingly, insomuch that she upbraided her, that the Lord had shut up her womb

Subjects, objects, girl child, whatever. It says above of Anna: “And the Lord had shut up her womb.” It also says Elcana gave portions (plural) to the other woman and to her sons and daughters. Anna got “one portion with sorrow”, presumably because of her being childless, but she was loved none the less by Elcana.

You might also check Haydock’s Commentary

haydock1859.tripod.com/id611.html
 
From the Douay-Rheims:

4 Now the day came, and Elcana offered sacrifice, and gave to Phenenna, his wife, and to all her sons and daughters, portions: 5 But to Anna he gave one portion with sorrow, because he loved Anna. And the Lord had shut up her womb. 6 Her rival also afflicted her, and troubled her exceedingly, insomuch that she upbraided her, that the Lord had shut up her womb

Subjects, objects, girl child, whatever. It says above of Anna: “And the Lord had shut up her womb.” It also says Elcana gave portions (plural) to the other woman and to her sons and daughters. Anna got “one portion with sorrow”, presumably because of her being childless, but she was loved none the less by Elcana.

You might also check Haydock’s Commentary

haydock1859.tripod.com/id611.html
Haydock is interesting – but has been wrong before.

My point is that the LXX says two things which do not match with the translations given: Hannah had no child EXCEPT – followed by a feminine exception. Hannah was given one portion of meat – and the LXX does not say Elcana loved Hannah, rather it says Hannah loved Elcana. Or in Latin, it says Hannah had been loving.

So, the point is that the LXX does not agree with the English translations – period. The DR does not even appear to agree with the Vulgate which appears to be in agreement with at least the Greek.

The English translations are making assumptions, and are not translating what is actually written.
 
The NAB is based on the Hebrew, which may or may not be a good thing. As most of you know, the NT writers relied more on the Septuagint. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls have often favored the Septuagint where it differs from the Hebrew, and the oldest available Greek manuscripts are older than the oldest Hebrew ones.

There is also another way to render the passage, see definition of ‘aph’ at:

cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0639&Version=kjv

You have to click on the link for the full entry.
 
Hi All,

The version where he gives Hannah one portion certainly makes more sense in the context of her being thoroughly unhappy. La Bible de Jérusalem, in both its early and late editions gives that translation too.

Nevertheless, an English bible done by a Jewish Publications Society gives this translation :
And it came to pass upon a day, when Elkanah sacrificed, that he gave to Peninnah his wife, and to all her sons and her daughters, portions; 5 but unto Hannah he gave a double portion; for he loved Hannah, but the LORD had shut up her womb
In this interpretation, Elkanah gives Hannah two portions out of pity for her state and the others make her suffer all the more for it.

Now here is a word for word translation from an interlinear bible :
But unto Hannah he gave a** worthy** portion, for he loved Hannah, but the Lord had shut up her womb.
You can go to it directly for all the details : studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Samuel+1&section=4&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search

So it seems that all depends on the interpretation of that word “WORTHY”.

We should feel free to adopt one translation or the other.

Verbum
 
The Hebrew reads “choice porton”. We do not know if that was an extra share or if it was one share of better quality.

Remember translation is interpretation. One translator took it to mean an extra share while the other likely had quality in mind.
I note that the LXX has been referenced as well as the Vulgate. While some of the ancient translations can be of use when there is a problem with a text in the OT, the primary reference must be to the Hebrew. In this case the words used here are מנה אחת אפּים [Note that I have removed the Massoretic pointing here to ensure that the consonantal text will appear correctly]. This is subject to some variation in understanding. First, it is a dual which is generally reserved to signifying two objects such as “two eyes”, “two hands”, etc. Secondly, it could be taken as indicating “also”, or on the other hand “additionally.” Thus it could be “one portion also” or “one portion additionally.” However, to reference the Deuteronomy passage is not germane to the discussion since there are many things which are reported in the case of the patriarchs which are contrary to provisions of the law such as the erection of sacred pillars and high places. While the setting of the account here is not the patriarchal period, it is still prior to the establishment of the monarchy which seems to be the watershed with regard to the possible enforcement of any of the Torah’s legal prescriptions. What this amounts to is that the meaning of the passage is not totally clear.
 
I note that the LXX has been referenced as well as the Vulgate. While some of the ancient translations can be of use when there is a problem with a text in the OT, the primary reference must be to the Hebrew.
Why? If we had an unedited Hebrew text from the period, I might agree – but what reason ought it have primacy in your view given that all copies of the Masoretic text are much younger than any other ancient translation, and were in the hands of a people hostile to Christianity?
In this case the words used here are מנה אחת אפּים [Note that I have removed the Massoretic pointing here to ensure that the consonantal text will appear correctly]. This is subject to some variation in understanding.
Excellent. So, since the vowels are not involved, the full range of vowel movement may be had – very ambiguous indeed.
Now, I haven’t learned Hebrew yet – but the Glyphs/Font above seems to be missing the dots which always confuse me. So, am I to assume this is read right to left similar to Arabic – and that we have to ‘guess’ at the vowels? (Eg: a first century Jew who memorized the vowels are sort of hard to come by … )
First, it is a dual which is generally reserved to signifying two objects such as “two eyes”, “two hands”, etc.
Yes, and I assume this is the same idea as the Greek dual from your description. And, how is is that one determines the inflection of a dual in Hebrew?
Secondly, it could be taken as indicating “also”, or on the other hand “additionally.” Thus it could be “one portion also” or “one portion additionally.”
excellent.
However, to reference the Deuteronomy passage is not germane to the discussion since there are many things which are reported in the case of the patriarchs which are contrary to provisions of the law such as the erection of sacred pillars and high places.
The law and meaning of Deuteronomy (even if not formalized) was known at this point in time, as you yourself implicitly acknowledge below. Even in the future these practices which you note – were not enforced against. Even in the monarchy, certain monarchs erected those very high places… Even Solomon himself allowed his 700+ wives to erect many things that ought not have been erected.
While the setting of the account here is not the patriarchal period, it is still prior to the establishment of the monarchy which seems to be the watershed with regard to the possible enforcement of any of the Torah’s legal prescriptions. What this amounts to is that the meaning of the passage is not totally clear.
The law was enforced sporadically in the time of the judges, I’ll agree, but how does this really make the use of Deuteronomy not Germain? are you suggesting that the law was not a standard at all during the time of the Judges – even if a weak one?
 
Why? If we had an unedited Hebrew text from the period, I might agree – but what reason ought it have primacy in your view given that all copies of the Masoretic text are much younger than any other ancient translation, and were in the hands of a people hostile to Christianity?
It is still a translation. As has noted, I believe it was by Jerome, “the translator is a traitor.” The very act of translating something alters it.
Excellent. So, since the vowels are not involved, the full range of vowel movement may be had – very ambiguous indeed.
Now, I haven’t learned Hebrew yet – but the Glyphs/Font above seems to be missing the dots which always confuse me. So, am I to assume this is read right to left similar to Arabic – and that we have to ‘guess’ at the vowels? (Eg: a first century Jew who memorized the vowels are sort of hard to come by … )
Yes, Hebrew reads from right to left, but the Hebrew reader is not “guessing” at the vowels if he truly knows the language except in certain restricted cases. Take a look at the newspaper Haaretz in Hebrew and you will note that there are no nikkudim or vowel points. This is read every day by Israelis.
Yes, and I assume this is the same idea as the Greek dual from your description. And, how is is that one determines the inflection of a dual in Hebrew?

excellent.
The ending for the dual is -ayim in Hebrew.
The law and meaning of Deuteronomy (even if not formalized) was known at this point in time, as you yourself implicitly acknowledge below. Even in the future these practices which you note – were not enforced against. Even in the monarchy, certain monarchs erected those very high places… Even Solomon himself allowed his 700+ wives to erect many things that ought not have been erected.

The law was enforced sporadically in the time of the judges, I’ll agree, but how does this really make the use of Deuteronomy not Germain? are you suggesting that the law was not a standard at all during the time of the Judges – even if a weak one?
No, the Deuteronomic law was not known as is indicated by all accounts until the scroll containing Deuteronomy was “found” in the temple during the reign of Josiah who then proceeded to centralize the cult in Jerusalem in accordance with its provisions.
 
Haydock is interesting – but has been wrong before.

My point is that the LXX says two things which do not match with the translations given: Hannah had no child EXCEPT – followed by a feminine exception. Hannah was given one portion of meat – and the LXX does not say Elcana loved Hannah, rather it says Hannah loved Elcana. Or in Latin, it says Hannah had been loving.

So, the point is that the LXX does not agree with the English translations – period. The DR does not even appear to agree with the Vulgate which appears to be in agreement with at least the Greek.

The English translations are making assumptions, and are not translating what is actually written.
Hey huioi theou,
Where are you getting your Greek info from? The LXX from www.apostolicbible.com has the following:

Where Annan is the accusative of Anna, i.e. the Septuagint states that Elkana loved Anna, not Anna loved Elkana as you state. The exception is not a ‘feminine exception’ either - the ‘thn’ is the article agreeing with Annan, it has nothing to do Anna having a feminine child.

The Douay Rheims (‘with sorrow’) agrees with the Hebrew aphim definition I posted in the link to www.blueletterbible.org.

Adrian
 
It is still a translation. As has noted, I believe it was by Jerome, “the translator is a traitor.” The very act of translating something alters it.
Hmmm … this smacks of a science symposium I once went to at OSU back in my high-school days. I was elected moderator, and the question my group was to discuss was “How is the Pope like Hitler.”

Now, the statement “the translator is a traitor” is not a literal statement. It is a quip on the difficultly of translating language.
You aren’t trying to imply that the 70+ Jewish scholars who translated the Septuagint(LXX) before the time of Christ were actual traitors, are you?

Now, as “John Calvin”, I might expect you would think Jerome was a traitor… But then, why do the “reformed” tout him so often for translating from the Hebrew?

The problem with your answer, is that it sort of avoids the deeper question – the Hebrew people who maintained the text of the Massoretic version (the Hebrew version) – were anti-christian. Christianity was a Heresy to them. So, in what way is the Hebrew text PREFERABLE to the other texts? It would seem the intentions of the LXX authors (even though dealing with translation) were likely more pure with respect to Christianity than the maintainers of the Masorah. I will admit that the Massorah is an excellent apologetic source since Christian doctrines which stand in spite of it’s variations – are beyond refuting on the basis of “Bias” or traitorship. But as I said – I think all versions are worth looking at for comparison purposes.
Yes, Hebrew reads from right to left, but the Hebrew reader is not “guessing” at the vowels if he truly knows the language except in certain restricted cases. Take a look at the newspaper Haaretz in Hebrew and you will note that there are no nikkudim or vowel points. This is read every day by Israelis.
Well, that’s a start. But, obviously only a fluent Hebrew speaker could know this – and again, language changes with time. To what degree and in what way is often of political importance – but in no way makes the Hebrew the ultimate authority (although, again I am interested in understanding it.)
The ending for the dual is -ayim in Hebrew.
Yes, and a vowel is in there – um, what does that look like in the Hebrew Glyphs you used before?
No, the Deuteronomic law was not known as is indicated by all accounts until the scroll containing Deuteronomy was “found” in the temple during the reign of Josiah who then proceeded to centralize the cult in Jerusalem in accordance with its provisions.
Hardly. Although it is true that the “law” was lost DURING the reign of the kings – it was none-the-less given by Moses just prior to entering the Promised land which is the time of the Judges.
Where exactly did this “loss” occur historically, or scriptural account?? And how do you know that this particular law, about inheritence, is only Deuteronomic (and a later addition to the law).
The torah, as eventually written down, was oral tradition at least partially memorized before the actual writing of it.
 
Now, the statement “the translator is a traitor” is not a literal statement. It is a quip on the difficultly of translating language.
It is Italian in origin. It is a play on words between traduttore (translator) and traditore (traitor).

Adrian
 
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