(1) The Jesus Myth and (2) Contradictions

[hermeneuticgirl]

I Have 2 Questions:

***Question 1 ***

**(1) ** The following are a sampling of articles that are getting a lot of press on the internet advocating that Jesus was a myth, or at least a man whose life that we know about is made up of stories that have been re-written from older literary sources. Are any of these true?

The Quest For The Mythical Jesus
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_quest_of_the_mythical_jesus

New Testament Narrative As Old Testament Midrash
robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

The Jesus Mirage
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_jesus_mirage

The Pious Fraud
www.caseagainstfaith.com (under ‘submissions’ link)

I am interested having specific flaws in the arguments of these articles pointed out

Question 2

(2) There is a lot being made these days about the contradictions in the bible. I’m not so much concerned about minor narrative contradictions (like the differences between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke or the story about where Jesus was taken after he was born), but major doctrinal contradictions. Here for example, are two

(A) For example, God’s knowledge seems self contradictory:

Either he knows everything about you and your future: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“, or else God doesn’t know everything about you (though he may know your future) “the LORD God called to the man, ‘Where are you?‘“(Genesis 3:8); or else God knows nothing regarding your future, or even what He Himself is going to do regarding it “Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

The passage from Genesis seems to contradict the notion of absolute knowledge, and certainly of omnipresence, and the passage in Job seems to contradict the notion of the divine foreknowledge of God, either about humans or about his own actions

(B) Also, God’s laws can be self-contradictory. For Example:

(1) It’s wrong to lie:

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Exodus 23:1
Thou shalt not raise a false report.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter.

Leviticus 6:2-4
If a soul … lie unto his neighbour … or hath deceived his neighbour … Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely. … Then … he shall restore that which he took.

Leviticus 19:11
Neither lie one to another.

Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Proverbs 13:5
A righteous man hateth lying.

Proverbs 24:28
Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

Luke 3:14
Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely.

Ephesians 4:25
Wherefore putting away lying, speaking every man truth with his neighbor.

Colossians 3:9
Lie not one to another.

Revelation 21:8
All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

(2) It’s okay to lie and can even be the thing that makes you righteous

Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him … I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

This second one, on lying, can be found in the skeptics annotated bible skepticsannotatedbible.com/ - along with many other contradictions. I would like to know, specifically, how these major doctrinal contradictions can be resolved.

Thanks

 

[tobinatorstark]

I Have 2 Questions:

***Question 1 ***

**(1) ** The following are a sampling of articles that are getting a lot of press on the internet advocating that Jesus was a myth, or at least a man whose life that we know about is made up of stories that have been re-written from older literary sources. Are any of these true?

The Quest For The Mythical Jesus
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_quest_of_the_mythical_jesus

New Testament Narrative As Old Testament Midrash
robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

The Jesus Mirage
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_jesus_mirage

The Pious Fraud
www.caseagainstfaith.com (under ‘submissions’ link)

I am interested having specific flaws in the arguments of these articles pointed out

Question 2

(2) There is a lot being made these days about the contradictions in the bible. I’m not so much concerned about minor narrative contradictions (like the differences between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke or the story about where Jesus was taken after he was born), but major doctrinal contradictions. Here for example, are two

(A) For example, God’s knowledge seems self contradictory:

Either he knows everything about you and your future: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“, or else God doesn’t know everything about you (though he may know your future) “the LORD God called to the man, ‘Where are you?‘“(Genesis 3:8); or else God knows nothing regarding your future, or even what He Himself is going to do regarding it “Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

The passage from Genesis seems to contradict the notion of absolute knowledge, and certainly of omnipresence, and the passage in Job seems to contradict the notion of the divine foreknowledge of God, either about humans or about his own actions

(B) Also, God’s laws can be self-contradictory. For Example:

(1) It’s wrong to lie:

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Exodus 23:1
Thou shalt not raise a false report.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter.

Leviticus 6:2-4
If a soul … lie unto his neighbour … or hath deceived his neighbour … Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely. … Then … he shall restore that which he took.

Leviticus 19:11
Neither lie one to another.

Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Proverbs 13:5
A righteous man hateth lying.

Proverbs 24:28
Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

Luke 3:14
Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely.

Ephesians 4:25
Wherefore putting away lying, speaking every man truth with his neighbor.

Colossians 3:9
Lie not one to another.

Revelation 21:8
All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

(2) It’s okay to lie and can even be the thing that makes you righteous

Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him … I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

This second one, on lying, can be found in the skeptics annotated bible skepticsannotatedbible.com/ - along with many other contradictions. I would like to know, specifically, how these major doctrinal contradictions can be resolved.

Thanks

All URLs given are false and you shouldn’t have to tolerate such garbage. Also withe last link, which is Baptist and not Catholic, you shouldn’t buy into their garbage either. Welcome to the Catholic Answers forum, if there is anything I can assist you then by all means contact me.

 

[Nandarani]

I know it’s not funny to encounter these websites but i wanted to say that your reply made me laugh in delight. That’s because, when one is caught up in debating these matters and trying to refute, or agree with, stuff like we can find on the web, it is like being in an entirely different universe mentally… so when someone comes in from elsewhere and says, they’re all false, welcome to the Catholic Answers website… well, it’s refreshing ! … .ne

 

[Belloc_Fan]

***Question 1 ***

I am interested having specific flaws in the arguments of these articles pointed out

In general, the idea of a Jesus myth is absurd. How would it even begin? We have incredibly ancient sources outside the Bible attesting to the fact that Christians believed in Christ as God from the 1st and 2nd century, both Christian and non-Christian sources. Pious Jews were fanatically monotheistic. They wouldn’t deify a man who wasn’t God. I didn’t read through each link, but is there a specific argument that troubles you?

Question 2
(A) For example, God’s knowledge seems self contradictory:

Either he knows everything about you and your future: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“, or else God doesn’t know everything about you (though he may know your future) “the LORD God called to the man, ‘Where are you?‘“(Genesis 3:8); or else God knows nothing regarding your future, or even what He Himself is going to do regarding it “Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

The passage from Genesis seems to contradict the notion of absolute knowledge, and certainly of omnipresence, and the passage in Job seems to contradict the notion of the divine foreknowledge of God, either about humans or about his own actions

God’s question in the Garden is not because He doesn’t know the answer. His questions is an accusation, as the rest of the chapter makes clear. They’re hiding in shame, and this serves as evidence of what they’ve done. God’s questions are more like the questions a smart prosecutor might ask the defendant when he’s on the stand, to get him to admit to a crime he’s committed.

(B) Also, God’s laws can be self-contradictory. For Example:

(1) It’s wrong to lie:

(2) It’s okay to lie and can even be the thing that makes you righteous

Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

I’ve always read this as an exception to the rule. Almost everyone, regardless of religion, will say: (a) lying is wrong, and (b) lying to Nazis about whether or not you’re hiding Jews in your attic isn’t wrong. All of the examples you provided deal with being a liar, lying under oath, or lying to one another. Rahab acted in faith. Even if what she did was objectively wrong (I don’t think it was, but one could conclude that, I suppose), she did it out of faith. It was well-intentioned, and it saved lives, and God was pleased with *her *(whether or not He was pleased with the lying).

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

Same as with Rahab, they’re lying to save the lives of innocent children. God isn’t going to say that you have to tell the truth even when it leads to murder. Similarly, we’re told to obey our mother and father and honor the King in the Bible, but there are exceptions for when we’re commanded to do something contrary to the Faith. The general rule can have narrow exceptions for good reasons.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him … I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

I’m not sure I understand this one. My best guess is that God is allowing an evil spirit to operate in the false prophets so that evil will overextend itself, leading to its own ruin (a common motif throughout history - think of Hitler’s invasion of Russia, for example). The thing being described is a vision, which simplifies what’s happening for the sake of the prophet and the audience. (That’s also true of the Job passage: it’s either a parable or a vision).

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

The context for this is that Elisha is asked by Hazael whether the king will recover from the disease. Elisha’s response is that the disease isn’t mortal, but that he’s going to die from it. The reason is in 2 Kings 8:15. The king’s disease, by itself, wasn’t enough to kill him. But when Hazael smothers him, that does. Elisha, by saying to Hazael that the disease isn’t deadly, but that he won’t recover from it, is letting Hazael know that he knows what’s up. The context of the chapter makes this clear. Elisha’s not lying (why on earth would he lie, since it would just betray the king to the evil Hazael?).

 

[judechild]

(B) Also, God’s laws can be self-contradictory. For Example:

(1) It’s wrong to lie:

(2) It’s okay to lie and can even be the thing that makes you righteous

I’ll try and give an answer for this part. I understand your confusion, but this is a chance to gain a more complete picture of how complex the Bible is. First of all, we know the truth is sacred, and that we should not lie because that offends the God of Truth, (especialy swearing in His name to give witness to a lie, which magnifies the offence). The catechism says: “The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others… Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness:they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant” (2464). We also know the Truth cannot change. This applies to empirical fact: 2 + 2 = 4. It always has, it does, and always will. It also applies to morality: murder, rape, incest, etc, are always wrong no matter what the circumstances.

Now, with that in mind, remember that the Bible shows the people of Isreal as they are gradually coming to know the will of God, consequently the inspired texts discribe see some events through a sort of lens that is colored through the dominant beliefs of the Isrealites at the time… and not all the beliefs of the Isrealites were of the will of God. For example, in 1 Samuel (somewhere around chapter 13) the Israelites under the leadership of Saul commite total genecide of every man, woman, child, and infant of a rival tribe… and attribute it to God’s will! These passages are inspired, but they are meant to have meaning for the people they are written for. The point of the story was Saul’s disobidience, not the geneocide itself; but this revelation of the divine will was taken on the backdrop of a recent event. In that way, the midwives lying to Pharaoh is seen as a noble thing because they are acting to save the people of Israel; Judith in the same way. I respectfully disagree with Belloc Fan that we should call these “exceptions to the rule”; it is dangerous to start rationalizing as to what is “for the greater good”; but Pharaoh had no right to the Truth, neither did Jew-hunting Nazis.

The point of these old-testament stories is not to say that lying can be a good thing, but that evil people with evil intentions have no right to the truth, and that the protection of the nation of Israel is a noble thing. In 1 Samuel’s case (I keep wanting to explain this because it really is a disturbing passage, unless you really understand it), God was not advocating the slaughter of innocents, that is never in God’s will, the story was meant to explain why the Kingdom was lost to Saul. It’s always important to consider why a story in the Bible was written.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[dnomyaR]

quote=hermeneuticgirl;5184204
For example, God’s knowledge seems self contradictory:
[/quote]

Either he knows everything about you and your future: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“, or else God doesn’t know everything about you (though he may know your future) “the LORD God called to the man, ‘Where are you?‘“(Genesis 3:8); o

I was reading until you quoted genesis as contradicting other parts of the bible.

Not every Catholic believes Genesis is the literal truth. Some believe it’s a symbolic story of the creation of the universe. You also have to remember the context of the particular verse.

 

[redhen]

Fr. Robert Barron, once again has a timely video.

youtube.com/watch?v=wZk9Lb22KrE&feature=channel_page

As an aside, both C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were devout Christians, yet they both knew a thing or two about mythology.

 

[hermeneuticgirl]

The old mystics used to say that one eventually comes to the point in one’s spiritual quest where one arrives at the dark night of the soul, and, staring into the abyss, you either turn back, or else see yourself, and become lost in it. I guess these questions I’ve posted are my dark night.

To take even two of the passages addressed, if I look at them with all my critical reading ability, I can see nothing but incompatibility. Look at this with me:

*“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“ *

*“Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“ *

To me, with all the interpretive ability I can muster, the God presented in the Jeremiah passage is a God of total knowledge and foresight, who knows us in our past, present, and future. The God of the Job passage is quite different. He didn’t know he would bring Job to ruin, and by extension he didn’t know Job in his past, present and future. He says quite clearly “you incited me,” and even in the King James version he said “thou movedst me.” God did not know He was going to do what the Devil ‘incited’ him to do. The language is plain and clear. The devil had a causal effect on God. The God of Job is not a God of total knowledge and foresight - or else He ‘chose’ not to be such a God in Job’s case and only chose to exercise the power of foresight in the previous case…

On just this particular issue, if I am being honest about what I am reading and do not simply regress into belief about what I think should see there, I do not see how the two passages can be reconciled in a way that does not contradict Catholic Doctrine.



I am at the same level of difficulty with all the issues I mentioned in my first post.

 

[Cachonga]

hermeneuticgirl:

The old mystics used to say that one eventually comes to the point in one’s spiritual quest where one arrives at the dark night of the soul, and, staring into the abyss, you either turn back, or else see yourself, and become lost in it. I guess these questions I’ve posted are my dark night.

To take even two of the passages addressed, if I look at them with all my critical reading ability, I can see nothing but incompatibility. Look at this with me:

“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“

“Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

To me, with all the interpretive ability I can muster, the God presented in the Jeremiah passage is a God of total knowledge and foresight, who knows us in our past, present, and future. The God of the Job passage is quite different. He didn’t know he would bring Job to ruin, and by extension he didn’t know Job in his past, present and future. He says quite clearly “you incited me,” and even in the King James version he said “thou movedst me.” God did not know He was going to do what the Devil ‘incited’ him to do. The language is plain and clear. The devil had a causal effect on God. The God of Job is not a God of total knowledge and foresight - or else He ‘chose’ not to be such a God in Job’s case and only chose to exercise the power of foresight in the previous case…

On just this particular issue, if I am being honest about what I am reading and do not simply regress into belief about what I think should see there, I do not see how the two passages can be reconciled in a way that does not contradict Catholic Doctrine.

I am at the same level of difficulty with all the issues I mentioned in my first post.

Scriptures need to be taken as a whole. I would first point to 1 Cor 10:15 ("No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. " NAS). Notice, God limits the temptations. If you go back and see what God allowed Satan, the first time, He did not allow the devil to touch Job, the second time, He did not allow the devil to kill Job. God knew Job would withstand the trials put on him by Satan, but God allowed the devil to try anyway. God definitely knew how Job would stand up to the trials, and how He would reward Job for his faithfulness.

In the case of Jeremiah, God was certainly addressing Jeremiah directly, but this could easily apply to all of us. God knows our entire lives, and whether or not we will be with Him in Heaven. God is not surprised by anything in His creation.

I encourage you spend time reading your Bible, not just here and there, but start with Genesis and read on through to the end of Revelation (even the boring parts). When you are done, do it again. Read different versions. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Tim2:15 KJV. Hope this helps!

 

[alacoque]

The old mystics used to say that one eventually comes to the point in one’s spiritual quest where one arrives at the dark night of the soul, and, staring into the abyss, you either turn back, or else see yourself, and become lost in it. I guess these questions I’ve posted are my dark night.

To take even two of the passages addressed, if I look at them with all my critical reading ability, I can see nothing but incompatibility. Look at this with me:

*“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“ *

“Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

To me, with all the interpretive ability I can muster, the God presented in the Jeremiah passage is a God of total knowledge and foresight, who knows us in our past, present, and future. The God of the Job passage is quite different. He didn’t know he would bring Job to ruin, and by extension he didn’t know Job in his past, present and future. He says quite clearly “you incited me,” and even in the King James version he said “thou movedst me.” God did not know He was going to do what the Devil ‘incited’ him to do. The language is plain and clear. The devil had a causal effect on God. The God of Job is not a God of total knowledge and foresight - or else He ‘chose’ not to be such a God in Job’s case and only chose to exercise the power of foresight in the previous case…

On just this particular issue, if I am being honest about what I am reading and do not simply regress into belief about what I think should see there, I do not see how the two passages can be reconciled in a way that does not contradict Catholic Doctrine.



I am at the same level of difficulty with all the issues I mentioned in my first post.

Is it beyond comprehension that God would use the device known as “rhetorical questioning” to make His point or teach something? Or to get the person to ‘think about the issue’ ?

A hypothetical: You encountered a homeless person on the street tomorrow and blithely walked by them, hurling a very hurtful slur over your shoulder at them as you pass (for this example, let’s assume you’re a real jerk and hate the homeless) . Then, turning the next corner, you encounter an apparition of Jesus, Himself - full of splendor and light and regarding you intently…as He asks: “hermeneuticgirl, why are you persecuting me?” D’ya think He REALLY doesn’t know you hate the homeless???

Or, if you have children or are ever around them and they misbehave or ‘sneak’ something or other, would you not ever say: “what are you doing?” or “ok, did you sneak that cookie without asking?” - when you know perfectly well what’s up and what it’s all about? (because you’re the adult and they’re the child and you have the ‘eagle-eye’!) THE KIDS might conclude you don’t have a clue what they did, but they’d be wrong…and they’d think that way cause they’re KIDS and pretty clueless.

By your definition and the comments in your post (and maybe because of listening uncritically to too many goofy folks), you would have to say that Jesus was actually asking you the question in order to “INFORM” Himself of something He didn’t know - as opposed to the reality of the situation - i.e. (and among other things) He was getting you to explore your own mindset and to be honest, in the presence of Truth, itself (Him).

You ask the kids about their behavior (in my example) because you want to teach them that it’s good and right and better for them to 'fess up, be honest and not try to shine people on. YOU know the answer to your own question, but the learning for the kids requires that you use certain techniques to bring out that lesson. It’s so simple, it’s obvious.

The message in all this, obviously, is that there is NO contradiction - it’s NOT that God doesn’t know what’s up at all times, but that there’s a REASON for His asking those questions. Remember, the whole thing with God is a RELATIONSHIP, which entails a back and forth, a learning, a communication. It’s not just all about God knowing stuff and sitting there full of knowledge showing it off to us.

Asking Satan questions forces the Father of Lies to be truthful (because he’s in the presence of God and cannot do otherwise) and forcing Satan to be honest is VICTORY over him. Questioning Satan also clearly establishes who is God and who is not. When God addresses Satan, Satan MUST answer and show respect and obedience!

Don’t listen to people who are so shallow (or sneaky) that they can fool you so easily! As indicated, I’m sure you yourself use this type of questioning and have never even thought about it or realized that it’s the same thing you’re all confused about.

So, God not only knows everything, He is so far beyond the understanding or comprehension of any of us, the last thing we should be doing is questioning His revelation from such a simplistic position.

Study the Catechism, the bible, the early Church Fathers and the writings of the saints, and not these other people you seem to have been checking out. All they’re doing is confusing you with silliness. God is God; you are not. These other people are not. Give Him and yourself a break and adore Him, as the seat of Wisdom and the Lord of the Universe and all creation. You can’t go wrong that way (and if you hang out around the source of all Truth and Wisdom, you’re bound to get a lot smarter about it all - and, for sure, you won’t end up believing lies).

God bless you and keep you…

 

[Liraco]

God did not know He was going to do what the Devil ‘incited’ him to do. The language is plain and clear. The devil had a causal effect on God. The God of Job is not a God of total knowledge and foresight - or else He ‘chose’ not to be such a God in Job’s case and only chose to exercise the power of foresight in the previous case…

On just this particular issue, if I am being honest about what I am reading and do not simply regress into belief about what I think should see there, I do not see how the two passages can be reconciled in a way that does not contradict Catholic Doctrine.

The language is not “plain and clear” about God not knowing what was going to happen in what you cited. In fact if you start reading from Job 1, you’ll see that God knew there was no one else like Job in holiness and faithfulness which is why he allowed such horrible things to happen to him, knowing full well he’d remain faithful despite the devil being so sure that Job would “curse you to your face.”

“In all this misfortune Job committed no sin, and he did not reproach God.” - Job 1:22

I don’t see that irreconcilable difference being taken from this piece unless you take the piece of scripture out of context and force that meaning on it, despite clearly not saying that. If anything, God was trying to teach the devil a lesson about true love for God in understanding that: “Yahweh gave, Yahweh has taken back. Blessed be the name of Yahweh!” - Job 1:21. Nothing is of our own and all comes as a gift from Him, which Job understood well.

 

[Cashue]

Regarding lying: There is a difference between reporting facts and commissioning and approving them.

Often the drama of the lives of individuals is allowed to play out according to their personal decisions with God neither approving nor disapproving of the action but allowing the outcome to work itself out and only intervening if said outcome is contrary to his planned purpose.

Thus when Lots daughters had sex with their father God did not “commission” the action nor approve of it but allowed it as part of the set of personal decisions of the individuals concerned.

Sometimes those individuals are God fearing people and their efforts to ensure their or their offspring’s future in line with God’s purpose - but this does not detract from the fact that unless it was a direct command from God those individuals made their personal decisions; that God did not leave them or abandon his purpose with them simply reflects his judgement of their motives and overal heart condition.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

BTW it doesn’t say that rahab lied.

Lying is one thing. Permitting someone to be deceived is different from lying to them.

Paul

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I Have 2 Questions:

***Question 1 ***

**(1) ** The following are a sampling of articles that are getting a lot of press on the internet advocating that Jesus was a myth, or at least a man whose life that we know about is made up of stories that have been re-written from older literary sources. Are any of these true?

The Quest For The Mythical Jesus
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_quest_of_the_mythical_jesus

New Testament Narrative As Old Testament Midrash
robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

The Jesus Mirage
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_jesus_mirage

The Pious Fraud
www.caseagainstfaith.com (under ‘submissions’ link)

I am interested having specific flaws in the arguments of these articles pointed out

Question 2

(2) There is a lot being made these days about the contradictions in the bible. I’m not so much concerned about minor narrative contradictions (like the differences between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke or the story about where Jesus was taken after he was born), but major doctrinal contradictions. Here for example, are two

(A) For example, God’s knowledge seems self contradictory:

Either he knows everything about you and your future: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1-5)“, or else God doesn’t know everything about you (though he may know your future) “the LORD God called to the man, ‘Where are you?‘“(Genesis 3:8); or else God knows nothing regarding your future, or even what He Himself is going to do regarding it “Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason. (Job 2:3)“

The passage from Genesis seems to contradict the notion of absolute knowledge, and certainly of omnipresence, and the passage in Job seems to contradict the notion of the divine foreknowledge of God, either about humans or about his own actions

(B) Also, God’s laws can be self-contradictory. For Example:

(1) It’s wrong to lie:

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Exodus 23:1
Thou shalt not raise a false report.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter.

Leviticus 6:2-4
If a soul … lie unto his neighbour … or hath deceived his neighbour … Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely. … Then … he shall restore that which he took.

Leviticus 19:11
Neither lie one to another.

Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Proverbs 13:5
A righteous man hateth lying.

Proverbs 24:28
Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

Luke 3:14
Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely.

Ephesians 4:25
Wherefore putting away lying, speaking every man truth with his neighbor.

Colossians 3:9
Lie not one to another.

Revelation 21:8
All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

(2) It’s okay to lie and can even be the thing that makes you righteous

Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him … I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

This second one, on lying, can be found in the skeptics annotated bible skepticsannotatedbible.com/ - along with many other contradictions. I would like to know, specifically, how these major doctrinal contradictions can be resolved.

Thanks

Really the Old Testament is full of contradictions. The Rahab story is kind of funny because really she is hiding the Jews so that she and her family will be spared, not because she cares about them. A lot of the Old Testament is about the humanity of people, and how they often do wrong, self-serving things. That’s why the Old Testament God is so judgemental. In some ways, the Old Testament reads like a comedy, all this relenting, repenting, resinning - I think it’s what makes Jewish people such great comedians!

 

[Belloc_Fan]

This is sort of a strange set of opinions for a Catholic.

Really the Old Testament is full of contradictions.

Obviously, not the Church’s positions, if you mean logical contradictions. If you mean the sort of real-life human contradictions (like, that David loved God deeply, but still couldn’t keep his hands to himself regarding Bathsheba), then it’s absolutely true.

The Rahab story is kind of funny because really she is hiding the Jews so that she and her family will be spared, not because she cares about them.

I think it’s too harsh on Rahab. She hears of the miracles of God, and believes in Him, but also fears Him. It’s true that she asks that kindness be shown to her and her family because of this action, but it’s not that different than someone bringing themselves or a friend to Christ to be healed, since they know of (and believe in) His power.

In any case, she protected them before she got the assurances. She trusted God to do right by her, instead of saying to the spies, “I’m only going to save you if you first agree to save me.”

A lot of the Old Testament is about the humanity of people, and how they often do wrong, self-serving things.

This is absolutely true. This is why I thought perhaps you meant human contradictions in your comment above.

That’s why the Old Testament God is so judgemental.

It’s the **same **God! It’s not shocking for a parent to spank a younger child: obviously, not an infant, but I think it’s still viewed as not outrageous to spank, say, a six-year-old, even if you or I may think it’s not the most effective parenting technique. But if thirty years later, we come across that same parent interacting with his or her adult child, we wouldn’t be surprised if the child was no longer spanked (in fact, we would be shocked if this were not the case). God didn’t change, Israel did. They grew up, and came to understand more metaphysical things - rather than, “don’t do that because you’ll die, or your kids will die, or your crops will fail,” they could grasp ideas like, “don’t do that because you’ll go to hell.” Throughout the whole of the Bible, God is calling them to an understanding of sin that’s beyond most people’s reach, then and now: “don’t do that because it displeases God.” In our fallen state, we too often want to say, “Yeah… so?” It’s as Israel matured that God starts treating them as a more mature people, even though that maturity didn’t always equate to increased faithfulness.

In some ways, the Old Testament reads like a comedy, all this relenting, repenting, resinning - I think it’s what makes Jewish people such great comedians!

It sounds more like the myth of Sisyphus, but Camus eventually decided that even that was (bleakly) comedic. Without Jesus to come in to cure the sickness of sin, it really is just like battling an impossible-to-cure cancer that sometimes goes into remission. Personally, I think the whole thing is pretty tragic, sans the Passion of Christ.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

BTW it doesn’t say that rahab lied.

Lying is one thing. Permitting someone to be deceived is different from lying to them.

Paul

Joshua 2:3-6

3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”

4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

I’m not sure how she’s only “allowing them to be deceived”?

 

[luisfigueroa24]

I Have 2 Questions:

***Question 1 ***

**(1) ** The following are a sampling of articles that are getting a lot of press on the internet advocating that Jesus was a myth, or at least a man whose life that we know about is made up of stories that have been re-written from older literary sources. Are any of these true?

The Quest For The Mythical Jesus
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_quest_of_the_mythical_jesus

Not true. A hand full of fishermen and gentiles could not known all the stories about pagan gods and heroes, some of them from far away lands, and had the ability to put them together to fit the person of Jesus and make any sense out of it. The New Testament could have only been inspired by the Holy Spirit and their personal relationship with a true historical Jesus.

New Testament Narrative As Old Testament Midrash
robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

Not true. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. By saying that the apostles took prophesies from the OT and pagan myths and rewrote them to hide some sort of different meaning in the NT, the author of this articles and his sources are Midrashing the Old Testament themselves.

The Jesus Mirage
centerforinquiry.net/jesusproject/articles/the_jesus_mirage

No comment here it just looks like the first link

The Pious Fraud
www.caseagainstfaith.com (under ‘submissions’ link)

I didn’t even look into this one

I am interested having specific flaws in the arguments of these articles pointed out

Thanks

I was going to comment on your other points but some other posters gave you some good replies that I was thinking about before reading them so I hope you found what you were looking for.

God Bless you