1 Thess. 4:8 and the Doctrine of the Trinity

[Achilles6129]

Since Jesus himself revealed the Holy Spirit to us at his baptism (remember he was present as the Son, the Holy Spirit descended upon him as a Dove, and the Father spoke from heaven) the Church has always believed in the Trinity. It was only the nature of the Trinity that some brought into question, not if the Trinity existed.

I understand that the Holy Spirit is God. My question concerns the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been formulated by the church is taught nowhere in Scripture. So the question is not whether or not the Holy Spirit is God, but rather whether or not the Holy Spirit is the essence of God and Christ or rather third member of the Godhead.

I understand that the Trinity may be one way to interpret the data that Scripture gives us. The passages I have studied, however, seem to indicate that there is another way to interpret the data, whereby the Holy Spirit is simply the essence of God and Christ.

 

[Achilles6129]

It says “His Holy Spirit” not because He is an attribute of God but because the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father is said to be the principle of both the Son and the Holy Spirit, thus because the Holy Spirit receives His substance from the Father He is called “His Holy Spirit”.

I understand that the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete) proceeds from the Father. My question concerns rather the interpretation of that. Also, what do you mean when you say that the Holy Spirit receives his “substance” from the Father?

Also, let me ask you this: do you believe that the Biblical data support the doctrine of subordinationism, i.e., that the Son/Holy Spirit are subordinate to the Father?

There isn’t a command that explicitly states to worship the Holy Spirit but I don’t think that should bother you.

It doesn’t, it’s just a thing of interest to me because the deity/worship of Christ/the Father are so explicitly affirmed in Scripture.

 

[fbl9]

I understand that the Holy Spirit is God. My question concerns the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been formulated by the church is taught nowhere in Scripture. So the question is not whether or not the Holy Spirit is God, but rather whether or not the Holy Spirit is the essence of God and Christ or rather third member of the Godhead.

I understand that the Trinity may be one way to interpret the data that Scripture gives us. The passages I have studied, however, seem to indicate that there is another way to interpret the data, whereby the Holy Spirit is simply the essence of God and Christ.

Yep we had it wrong for the last two thousand years till the oneness Pentecostals came along.One would have thought that the doctrine of the Trinity would have been ditched right away by those that brought forth the truth of scripture alone.But they didn’t. Why?
Ever since the revelation of the truth of Sola Scripture it seems the newer the group, the less it has in common with Catholicism and even the prophets of Sola Scripture as well.

 

[Achilles6129]

Yep we had it wrong for the last two thousand years till the oneness Pentecostals came along.One would have thought that the doctrine of the Trinity would have been ditched right away by those that brought forth the truth of scripture alone.But they didn’t. Why?
Ever since the revelation of the truth of Sola Scripture it seems the newer the group, the less it has in common with Catholicism and even the prophets of Sola Scripture as well.

These are just simple questions, that’s all. I fully understand that the Trinity is one way to make sense of the Biblical data. It just seems that there are other ways as well.

 

[fbl9]

“8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.” 1 Thess. 4:8 (NASB)

The traditional doctrine of the Trinity is that the Holy Spirit is the third member in the Godhead. I understand why this is so and that there are passages which support this in Scripture, but I have a couple questions:

1. In this above passage the Holy Spirit doesn’t seem to be the third member of the Godhead, but rather something that is possessed by God himself. So how do we make sense of this?
2. Where is the Holy Spirit in the book of Revelation? I do understand that the Holy Spirit may be mentioned indirectly by the fact that there’s a Satanic trinity (the devil, the beast, and the false prophet) which seems to mean that there’s a Holy Trinity. But in Revelation it says things like “the throne of God and the Lamb,” etc. Why doesn’t it mention “the throne of God, the Lamb, and the Holy Spirit”?

Thoughts?

Revelation 2:7"…what the Holy Spirit says to the Churches" this seems to imply personage.
Revelation 22:17 “And the Spirit and the Bride say…” again personage.
The Holy Spirit seems to appear at the beginning and end but not in middle?
Late addition in chapter 15 the Holy spirit commands the writer
The Holy Spirit seems not to have role in the bulk of Revelation but mention of the Holy in the noted places seem to imply personage rather than essence.

 

[Chesster]

I understand that the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete) proceeds from the Father. My question concerns rather the interpretation of that. Also, what do you mean when you say that the Holy Spirit receives his “substance” from the Father?

I mean that the Holy Spirit possesses the same divine essence as the Father.

Also, let me ask you this: do you believe that the Biblical data support the doctrine of subordinationism, i.e., that the Son/Holy Spirit are subordinate to the Father?

No, that is an old heresy. According to Aquinas there is order in the Trinity but not in the sense of priority as if one is greater then another but an order of nature whereby one is from another.

 

[jcrichton]

Right, I understand, but when it says “his Holy Spirit” it sounds as though the Holy Spirit is something that God possesses, not the pre-existent third member of the Trinity.

Also, another point: it seems to me that we are never commanded to worship the Holy Spirit in Scripture, and I do not believe that there is ever worship of the Holy Spirit in Scripture (please correct me if I’m wrong). I think that the Holy Spirit is clearly the most “hidden” member of the Trinity.

Hi!

…I think that you are correct in regards to a Command to worship the Holy Spirit… but you are also wrong in understanding the Command: ‘Worship the Lord, your God; only him shall you Worship…’ this Command is that only God can/must be Worshipped!

…there’s no Command to only Worship the Father!

However, we do find Scriptures that demonstrate that the Holy Trinity is to be Worshipped because of what is Revealed about God:

1. God is Spirit:

24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

(St. John 4:24)
2) the Spirit of the God (Father) is the Spirit of the Son (the Holy Spirit):

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

(Romans 8:9-11)
3) the Son is recognized as knowing everything and He is Worshipped:

30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

(St. John 16:30)

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (St. John 20:28)
4) Jesus transfers the Command of not Blaspheming against God and His Name to the Holy Spirit; He makes it plain that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven:

30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. 31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

(St. Matthew 12:30-32)
5) the Holy Spirit is recognized as God:

3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? 4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God.

(Acts 5:3-4)
…this relationship, that of the Holy Trinity, is clearly understood and taught by the Apostles:

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

(Romans 14:17-18)
…it is important to understand Scriptures through the entirety of the Bible and not through individual passages!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I understand that the Holy Spirit is God. My question concerns the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been formulated by the church is taught nowhere in Scripture. So the question is not whether or not the Holy Spirit is God, but rather whether or not the Holy Spirit is the essence of God and Christ or rather third member of the Godhead.

I understand that the Trinity may be one way to interpret the data that Scripture gives us. The passages I have studied, however, seem to indicate that there is another way to interpret the data, whereby the Holy Spirit is simply the essence of God and Christ.

Hi!

…here’s Christ’s take on the Holy Trinity:

1. First, Jesus Reveals that He and the Father are One:

6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

(St. John 14:6-7)
2) Then Jesus Reveals that everything that Belongs to the Father is His and that He Gives it to the Holy Spirit (the other Paraclete):

12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

(St. John 16:12-15)
Jesus is the one Who Reveals that He and the Father are One and that the Holy Spirit (not the Father, not the Son) will Come to the Church and bring her the Fullness of Truth–everything is of God and by God.

Though I understand how you may come to such appreciation since we seem to understand the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son… how do you account for Jesus’s insistence that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit abide in the Church (Believers)?:

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

(St. John 14:16-17, 23)
If the Holy Spirit is simply as you seem to understand (an essence) and not the Third Person of God, why is Jesus emphasizing that the Father and Him (because of the Believers’ relationship with Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (because of the Revelations and relationship with His Church) will all three abide (make a home) in the Believers?

The Holy Spirit (the other Paraclete) is a distinct Person of God!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Darryl_B]

I would add John 16:7, I am only adding it because I haven’t seen it yet, though it may well be here on this post already.

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

which continues from an already mentioned John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

where “another” advocate does not mean “another” as in different or similar, but in the Greek the word used for “another” means “one of the same”.

So the Father sends the Spirit, the Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit is the “same” as the Son and the Son is the “same” as the Father.

 

[Achilles6129]

Hi!

…here’s Christ’s take on the Holy Trinity:

1. First, Jesus Reveals that He and the Father are One:
2. Then Jesus Reveals that everything that Belongs to the Father is His and that He Gives it to the Holy Spirit (the other Paraclete):

Jesus is the one Who Reveals that He and the Father are One and that the Holy Spirit (not the Father, not the Son) will Come to the Church and bring her the Fullness of Truth–everything is of God and by God.

Though I understand how you may come to such appreciation since we seem to understand the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son… how do you account for Jesus’s insistence that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit abide in the Church (Believers)?:

If the Holy Spirit is simply as you seem to understand (an essence) and not the Third Person of God, why is Jesus emphasizing that the Father and Him (because of the Believers’ relationship with Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (because of the Revelations and relationship with His Church) will all three abide (make a home) in the Believers?

The Holy Spirit (the other Paraclete) is a distinct Person of God!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

Very good passages. I think that the gospel of John definitely supports the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[jcrichton]

I would add John 16:7, I am only adding it because I haven’t seen it yet, though it may well be here on this post already.

which continues from an already mentioned John 14:16

where “another” advocate does not mean “another” as in different or similar, but in the Greek the word used for “another” means “one of the same”.

So the Father sends the Spirit, the Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit is the “same” as the Son and the Son is the “same” as the Father.

Hi, Darryl!

…I’m not versed in the nuances of usage/roots of languages (words)… but it seems to me that this plays very well into the indissolubility of the Unity of God while sustaining a Revealed Trinity… God is Omnipotent so the Father, as Revealed in the Old Testament, is more than capable to bring the Church to the Fullness of Truth; yet, it is God’s Design that the Holy Spirit Be the One Person of God to Bring the Church to the Fullness.

…this Unity and Functionality is constant throughout Scriptures… but as a jigsaw puzzle all of the pieces must come together in order for the full picture to be appreciated in its totality.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Very good passages. I think that the gospel of John definitely supports the doctrine of the Trinity.

Hi!

…yes, the Gospel of John is fully packed; it allows for no escape… if one wants to listen to the Word of God; however, we must also understand that it is not just the Gospel (the text) but the mind of the Apostles (their understanding) that is being set on paper… the Apostles are monotheistic… for them to Worship Christ or to hold the Holy Spirit as God, unless they subscribe to the understanding of the Holy Trinity, would be nothing short of heresy and paganism (polytheism).

But what is Taught in the Church is consistent with the Triune God:

3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

(Ephesians 4:3-6)
…so yes, we will not find the term, Holy Trinity, in Scriptures as such a term came into existence later on in the development of the Church; yet, the understanding that the Father is God, that the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God, is not simply a new development in the understanding of the Church.

…of course, interpretation can lead anyone to believe anything… including that Jesus is not God and that the Holy Spirit is simply the essence of God… but when such ideologies surface, why is it that there’s no Biblical proof to it? I mean, should Scriptures not quantify such beliefs through text?

Since Scriptures are totally silent in such arguments …they remain only as interpretational exercises!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel