1 Tim 3,4 Bishops

[AndyF]

Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

The footnote in NAB doesn’t seem to leap at the opportunity to set the record straight for those who may misinterpret the passage.

Do the protestants have something here.?

Andy

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Celibacy is simply a discipline of the Church, and the Latin one at that. Most Eastern Catholic priests are married as well Latin Rite priests who were formerly Protestant ministers. There is no one right way in celibacy v. married priests. Each has its own blessings and challenges.

In the passage of Scripture you reference, its simply the early Church trying to figure out how to properly structure itself. Paul (or an author using his name) is trying to help bring order to the selection process. I don’t think even Protestants would go so far as to say that a minister or bishop must be married so they can’t claim to take this passage literally.

 

[chevalier]

I see that passage as referring to what when a man to be ordained already has a family. Thus when it says, say, “husband of one wife,” I would take that as a man who has not divorced one wife to take another, not that it must be a married man.

 

[Canto]

Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

The footnote in NAB doesn’t seem to leap at the opportunity to set the record straight for those who may misinterpret the passage.

Do the protestants have something here.?

Andy

Do most Protestant denominations have Bishops?

Marriage is a sacrament, taken very seriously. Celibacy is a discipline for the Latin Rite of the Church and I believe it to be a very important discipline.

Why would Paul mandate marriage if he himslef as a Bishop was celibate. So was Jesus our High Priest!

In noting Bishops should have one wife etc… he exludes polygamists, help ensrue a respectable candidate is chosen, but does not impose unequivocally marriage as a necessary condition. Note he says children (plural) so if it were mandatory those with one child or no children could not become a bishop.

Matthew 19:12 Christ speaks of those who make themselves eunuchs (not married) for the the kingdom of heaven
1 Corinthians 7:7 - Paul wishes all were as he - unmarried
1 Corinthians 7:8 - Paul tells the unmarried and widowed to reamin single
1 Corinthians 7:32-34 - An unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, an married man is divided between God and the world
1 Corinthians 7:38 he who refrains from marriage will do better than he who does not
Jeremiah 16:2 - God commanded Jeremiah to neither to take a wife nor have children

Looking at the Navarre Commentary it says there must have been a shortage of people for the office of Bishop, and that it does not mean the the person is under the oblogiation to marry but that he must not have married more than once. It notes very early on that celibacy began the be practice and would later become the norm in the Latin Rite.

 

[SMHW]

I find it interesting that the debate over the intended meaning of Paul’s letter to Timothy seems to only be a matter of debate within Western Christianity.

Roman Catholics and eastern Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) may quibble over the importance of celibacy for priests but both practice celibacy for bishops. And neither tradition considers celibacy necessary for the priesthood. Both traditions affirm the practice of the ordained maintaining celibacy after the death of a spouse.

 

[centurionguard]

When I think of a man who is called into the “Priesthood”; if one asks a priest how he got that calling inside his heart to desire to become priest? In all honesty I think most would humbly conclude that the Spirit of God called them which in truth would leave no doubt in their minds.

Similarly; one must conclude that the virtue or gift of Celibacy is also a supernatural calling inspired by God to be sought not only by priests, but all people. Even married couples are called to practice celibacy.

 

[NHInsider]

When I think of a man who is called into the “Priesthood”; if one asks a priest how he got that calling inside his heart to desire to become priest? In all honesty I think most would humbly conclude that the Spirit of God called them which in truth would leave no doubt in their minds.

Similarly; one must conclude that the virtue or gift of Celibacy is also a supernatural calling inspired by God to be sought not only by priests, but all people. Even married couples are called to practice celibacy.

Sorry, do you mean “celibacy” or do you mean “chastity”? St. Paul speaks of the virtue of occasional periods of abstinence as a spiritual discipline but cautioned against prolonging them.

 

[centurionguard]

Sorry, do you mean “celibacy” or do you mean “chastity”? St. Paul speaks of the virtue of occasional periods of abstinence as a spiritual discipline but cautioned against prolonging them.

**Sorry, do you mean “celibacy” or do you mean “chastity”? **

Celibacy and Chasity are closely linked by definition. But your correct in respect to my typo error in saying (“Even married couples are called to practice celibacy”), where I could have used the word Chasity

St. Paul speaks of the virtue of occasional periods of abstinence as a spiritual discipline but cautioned against prolonging them.

Saint Paul may have cautioned against prolonging abstinence for married couples, but it does not mean that married couples after they have consummated their marriage that they cannot later in life make a spiritual vow of abstention from all physical sexual intercourse conjointly between themselves. I have read about catholic married couples who have done just that and still maintained a full united commitment of love between them for the remainder of their lives. My parents after they were forty made such a vow offering their complete abstinence from sex as a spiritual gift to God.

**And their was “no doubt” in my mind as to the great love they had for each other.
**

 

[Brendan]

Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

The footnote in NAB doesn’t seem to leap at the opportunity to set the record straight for those who may misinterpret the passage.

Do the protestants have something here.?

Andy

Huh??, the place where St. Paul tells of the ideal canididate, he says they should be unmarried

1 Cor 7:33-34

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided

Are Protestants really saying that being concerned about the affairs of the world, and having his interestes divided is a GOOD thing in a liturgical minister???

 

[losh14]

Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

Celibacy did come about later. Some of the early fathers (first five centuries) write about clergy having wives, though this was discontinued for a number of reasons. I’ve heard theories on several forms:

1. Priests ‘own’ the land on which their parish sits and would be expected to parcel it out to their sons via primogeniture.
2. Priests would have to support families on limited income, ie off the donations of the church that should properly go to widows and orphans.
3. If a priest had a son that would raise the issue of whether the son had the ‘right’ to succeed his father as priest, whereas priests were generally picked by the congregation prior to the sixth century (and instead were appointed by the bishop after).

Note that the difference in Catholic and Protestant positions reflects a common difference in how we read Scripture. Catholics may take as reflective what Protestants take as mandative - in other words, we read that at the time bishops could take a wife, while Protestants may read that such an allowance is acceptable today as well.

 

[Brendan]

. Catholics may take as reflective what Protestants take as mandative - in other words, we read that at the time bishops could take a wife, while Protestants may read that such an allowance is acceptable today as well.

Actually No, we can’t read it that way. Paul’s letter to Timothy discusses the qualites of a bishop ( minmum standards effectively).

So Paul is saying that a canidate to the Episcopicy MAY be married. It does not say that someone who is already a Bishop may take a wife.

 

[PJM]

=AndyF;6106485]Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

The footnote in NAB doesn’t seem to leap at the opportunity to set the record straight for those who may misinterpret the passage.

Do the protestants have something here.?

Andy

Hi Andy,

This is actaully and “can or should” issue in that celebacy in simply a CHURCH PRACTICE, and as such it could be changed. BUT WILL IT?

Highly unlikely for the following reasons.

Celibacy is in a real sense voluntary because the priesthood is not a "Drafting,"not forced, but a freewill decision by men called by God. Further, they are aware of the required committment before they enter seminary.

Also it is Sacred Tradition born out in many hundreds of years of experience that affirm the prudent logic of this course.

Mt. 6: Matt.6:24 [Jesus speaking] “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” THERE is also our Lords advice about “a house devided against itself,” that is very practical advise.

Marriage is so special, so highly reguarded that the fathers deem it unwise to have our clerics try to serve a wife and family and God’s Church at the same time.

I can’t ever recall a priest [even when we had lots of them] that didn’t have MORE than enough work to keep him over-worked.

Finally; GOD OFFERS SUPER-ABUNDANT GRACE to assist them in keepting there commitment. Indeed, it ONLY POSSIBLE through God’s grace, which any priest will confirm:thumbsup:

 

[peary]

Being totally against marriage for priests, I came to discover most protestant churches
receive their support for it in this passage in regards to the ideal candidates for ministerial work.

The footnote in NAB doesn’t seem to leap at the opportunity to set the record straight for those who may misinterpret the passage.

Do the protestants have something here.?

Andy

**Protestants can do what they want because they have cut themselves off from the Church. This does not mean, however, that they have no hope of salvation. On the contrary, if they have been properly batpzied, they are members of the Body of Christ, the Church, and can participate and receive the benefits of the works and prayers of the Church.

Their pastors lack valid Orders because they are sacramentally cut off from the Church. Pastors of protestant churches, however, can be seen as extraordinary lay people who possess a special charism by the Spirit to preach the Word of God and, hopefully, live it.

Celibacy is a Church law and, as such, can be changed by the Church. In the Eastern church, priests can be married and they can have children, but once their wives die they cannot remarry. Bishops have a long tradition of being celibate.

Valid Catholic priests can be looked upon as “alter Christus” or “another Christ.” This concept the protestants totally reject which is why they have allowed their own ministers to marry. They also reject the notion of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and do not have altars but instead ‘tables’. Even though Jesus Himself was celibate, protestants don’t make too much of this fact.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:12 - “Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”**

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Does anyone know who the last married bishop of the Catholic Church was?

 

[peary]

Does anyone know who the last married bishop of the Catholic Church was?

Miningo from Africa. He was also recently excommunicated and all of his priestly faculties have been permanently suspended.

 

[losh14]

So Paul is saying that a canidate to the Episcopicy MAY be married. It does not say that someone who is already a Bishop may take a wife.

Ah, that’s a good nuance to point out. Thank you.

 

[FCEGM]

Miningo from Africa. He was also recently excommunicated and all of his priestly faculties have been permanently suspended.

Not quite the same, though, as married bishops in the early Church who were married before their ordination to the priesthood, not (illegitimately) after.

 

[AndyF]

Canto, good post and the references pretty well clinch the matter.

Thanks everyone for your answers.

Andy

 

[AndyF]

Celibacy did come about later. Some of the early fathers (first five centuries) write about clergy having wives, though this was discontinued for a number of reasons. I’ve heard theories on several forms:

1. Priests ‘own’ the land on which their parish sits and would be expected to parcel it out to their sons via primogeniture.
2. Priests would have to support families on limited income, ie off the donations of the church that should properly go to widows and orphans.
3. If a priest had a son that would raise the issue of whether the son had the ‘right’ to succeed his father as priest, whereas priests were generally picked by the congregation prior to the sixth century (and instead were appointed by the bishop after).

Note that the difference in Catholic and Protestant positions reflects a common difference in how we read Scripture. Catholics may take as reflective what Protestants take as mandative - in other words, we read that at the time bishops could take a wife, while Protestants may read that such an allowance is acceptable today as well.

Interesting.!

Thanks.

Andy

 

[AndyF]

Hi Andy,

This is actaully and “can or should” issue in that celebacy in simply a CHURCH PRACTICE, and as such it could be changed. BUT WILL IT?

Highly unlikely for the following reasons.

Celibacy is in a real sense voluntary because the priesthood is not a "Drafting,"not forced, but a freewill decision by men called by God. Further, they are aware of the required committment before they enter seminary.

Also it is Sacred Tradition born out in many hundreds of years of experience that affirm the prudent logic of this course.

Mt. 6: Matt.6:24 [Jesus speaking] “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” THERE is also our Lords advice about “a house devided against itself,” that is very practical advise.

Marriage is so special, so highly reguarded that the fathers deem it unwise to have our clerics try to serve a wife and family and God’s Church at the same time.

I can’t ever recall a priest [even when we had lots of them] that didn’t have MORE than enough work to keep him over-worked.

Finally; GOD OFFERS SUPER-ABUNDANT GRACE to assist them in keepting there commitment. Indeed, it ONLY POSSIBLE through God’s grace, which any priest will confirm:thumbsup:

PJM, good points.

(Ahhh, Fulton. I find it remarkable that he could hold a 9 year old “Huck Finn” such as myself transfixed in front of a black and white TV for half an hour, let alone a minute, and still be able to get his message across. Sadly, all part of the traditions and values lost in this generation. We need more like him, more important now than ever in these dark days.)

Thanks

Andy