J
jcrichton
Guest
I think that you are using a wrong analogy since Jesus’ Baptism was performed for our benefit and it is He that Baptizes in the Holy Spirit.
Maran atha!
Angel
- Status
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Conversely:
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If we read these two passages divorced from the rest of the Holy Scriptures anyone can say that they are contradicting each other since the passage you’ve cited seems to imply that Salvation is attained by simply confessing and saying that we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead while the passage I cited concretely immerses us into the Holy Trinity, which implies that a person must be well versed in the Faith (water Baptism and the whole works). However, when we read them in light of other Scriptures we find that they are more congruous than one might suspect:
Acts 10:44-48a
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Kephas notes that they are witnessing the reverse effect of the Pentecost (Believers first Baptized then received the Holy Spirit) and while Cornelius and his whole household (which could very well have included the servants and any visitors) had received the Holy Spirit, Peter did not think it redundant to initiate them all with the water Baptism!
Maran atha!
Angel
T
thechristian
Guest
Without love there is know spirit…without the spirit there is know salvation…So love in jesus is the only requirement for salvation…and with that love of God in you, all other things are added baptisum, works, fruits, gifts etc.
God loves you…God bless
God loves you…God bless
J
jcrichton
Guest
The problem with that theology is that only those who do not “claim” salvation are to be held accountable for their rebellious acts against God, man and nature.
Suppose I am a poor man (which I am), since I believe in Christ and I confess that He is my Lord and Savior, that has died not only for my personal sins but for the sins of the whole world from the beginning of Creation till the end of times (Parousia), could I then go into a bank with the intent of robbing it, kill whoever gets in the way, take the money and start living it large cause my Lord Jesus has already forgiven me and my Salvation is secured by that Biblical text that seems to imply that Christians are always saved and can never sin?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
So are you saying that both Abel and Cain offered excellent sacrifice since they both acted according to their heart?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Excellent post! :clapping:Don’t forget
**
John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing… 8 By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. 9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
11 "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete… 16
It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. 7 This I command you: love one another.**
What’s being stated here? That to remain in Christ we must bear fruit. Well, what is fruit? Fruit = love =Works, right?
Like wise,
**
Jame 20
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone… 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.**
We know
**Ephisians 2:
8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9
it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.**
All the Catholics out there tell me if you agree with this.
People usually like to quote 8 and 9 from Ephisians 2, but some how miss 10. I don’t get it. It states clearly that we are “created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance”. This seems to me that it states that works are not optional.
So anyway…
Would the Catholics in the house agree with…
We are, by Grace, saved through faith, but according to James if we do not do the works God has prepared for us then our faith is meaningless and dead. Works do not give faith, but faith makes us want to preform works. If we do not preform works then we are not doing what God wants us to do (or we don’t have any faith) thus we are off the mark of God… Wouldn’t this mean that we are sinning since we are off the mark of God, by not preforming the works he prepared for us and which we were created to preform? (For those that don’t know – sinning, in Greek, came from archers who missed their targets. Thus sinning means " to miss the mark" ) Too me (and several priest that I’ve talked to) according to John 15, if we don’t don’t bear fruit (preform works), then we are not remaining in Christ. If we are not remaining in Christ then we will be cut off, thrown on the ground to wither in the sun, and be burned. :-/ So, how can we remain in Christ? Well, he tells us, a few versus late in John 15. Love one another. True love is laying down ones life for a friend ( A few more versus later in John 15). Laying down ones life is a work of love (I don’t see how any one could argue with that). Loving takes work (we all know that). So, to remain in Christ we must love, thus to remain in Christ we must do works (love - which encompasses a lot of works), which we were created to preform, through our faith in Christ.
In conclusion. We are by Grace, Saved through faith. And if we have faith then we’ll preform works, but conversely if we are not preforming works (prepared in advance by God) then we don’t have faith. Thus, works are an inadvertent, yet necessary product of faith.
I think that the issue arose when Luther wanted to remove the Authority of the Church–by divorcing Christianity from the Holy Traditions (nearly 1500 years of it) there had to be something to which he had to ancher his theology since he, in essence, was usurping Christ by creating a new church; hence by “faith alone” and “sola Scriptura” were born… these are great since anyone can quote a few passages of the Sacred Scriptures and claim that the Holy Spirit has inspired him/her to interprete x, y, or z rather than the accepting the Church’s Historical Doctrines which comes to us through the fellowship of the Apostles, who, in turn, were Taugh by Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit.
It amazes me how much selective reasoning goes into much of the Protestant interpretation of Scriptures… they even contradict themselves without even blinking an eye!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
I know that you are taught to believe that Jesus is making a separation between believers and unbelievers… but that is a flawed interpretation of this passage… Jesus is not speaking of those who do not believe since it is eviden that they use His Name as the source of their power to heal, preach, and exorcise demons… their failure is not disbelief in Jesus but as the 72 that were sent: pride: they believed that they were somehow accomplishing something due to their own merits/power; conversely look at St. Paul’s revelation:
1 Corinthians 9:16
Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
When we are prideful in dispensing what has been delegated to us by our Lord, Jesus Christ, our reward has been met and we store nothing in Heaven!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
But how can the Holy Spirit reveal to you that Jesus is being fooled by unbelievers?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…not sure if you are responding to my post… but understand that Jesus equates Love to Obedience!:
John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.
He commands that we be Baptized, be born again, be one, Love one another… everything centers on the Church, which is the pillard and foundation of Truth since the Holy Spirit dwells in her!
Maran atha!
Angel
T
thechristian
Guest
Not just love for him but also for all members of the church…and once you become a member of the church you are a saved christian and the spirit dwells in you…he will lead you into all truth. He will confort you, remind you, teach you, he gives you gifts, he helps you produce fruit, he is involved in all areas of your christian walk. With christ as the head of the church he is always with us, and with him at the center of our life and the guidence of the holy spirit we are to go out and make deciples of all nations teaching everything he has commanded to do.
God loves you…God bless
J
jcrichton
Guest
My point is that Jesus equates Love with Obedience to His Commandments; if we say we love Him we must obey Him not chose and pick what to do/feel; when we say we love God we must demonstrate it… Jesus is the Head of the Church but not the Head of many churches with diverging theologies… so we must center ourselves in Jesus’ Commandments in order to abide in Him (Obey) and become part of His Body; Salvation does not come from being a member of a group but from being in Jesus and Loving (Obeying) Him.
Maran atha!
Angel
T
thechristian
Guest
Jesus does aquate love with obedience, we should never pick and choose scripture. Scripture is either whole or it is not. I believe if jesus is not the head of a paticular church…then it can’t possibly be his church. I agree with everything you said…jesus
is the author and finishing of the christian faith. I belong to an evangelico fundamentlist
church they teach the exact same things…you just mentioned. I’m am not trying to
proselytize you…I’m just a seeker of the truth just like you.
God loves you…God bless
is the author and finishing of the christian faith. I belong to an evangelico fundamentlist
church they teach the exact same things…you just mentioned. I’m am not trying to
proselytize you…I’m just a seeker of the truth just like you.
God loves you…God bless
F
fred_stoutland
Guest
I will admit that there are many Protestant Christians who are intolerant of others who do not believe as they do. I have been a regular viewer of the Catholic Answers Forum for about three years, maybe four years. I, a conservative Christian, have been helped greatly in my understanding of Catholic doctrine. But I also read comments from a number of Catholics who are equally intolerant and ignorant of mainstream Protestant doctinal views. Let’s not paint everyone with the same brush. For instance, the vast majority of conservative believers in Christ as Lord and Savior don’t believe that once “born-again” Christians never sin. The Wesley brothers of Methodism preached that, but none of the other major denominations ever did. today, only a few fringe gorups claim this “perfection.” We believe that no one who has committed their life to Christ will ever be sinless until they see Christ in heaven or when He comes again to take us into the new heaven and new earth.
T
thechristian
Guest
I agree fred…as long as we live in this eartly tent we will never be sinless…but we can be born again.
God loves you…God bless
God loves you…God bless
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Great. So let me ask you. Since both you and this fundamentalist Christian I am speaking with are sola scripturist Christians (I am just guessing that you are, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) how would you go about showing him his error?
Same question. How do you show a sola scripturist christian, one who believes he and not you, is led by the Holy Spirit? How do you convince someone who considers you to be the one holding to heterodox beliefs? And of course he can support his belief by using the Bible.
Here is the statement:
The exchange above is a response by this man to a Protestant believer. So how would you two respond to this? Remember; this is a Protestant who believes in sola scriptura and believes he has been led by the Holy Spirit.
Also notice this “sola scripturist’s” denial of the the Protestant “faith alone” doctrine… He uses the Bible alone to disprove faith alone.
God bless
J
jcrichton
Guest
I understand what you are saying… but mainstream does not necessarily translate to the majority–specially localy; my experience has been that of those who may have been splinter individuals/groups of the persons you’ve mentioned… part of their doctrinal belief is that once saved always saved, that those in their church/group do not sin (regardless of their personal behavior) and that those outside their church/group are far from true spiritual understanding/enlightenment…
Maran atha!
Angel
F
fred_stoutland
Guest
F
fred_stoutland
Guest
My reply is long, for which I apologize. But it is so to try and explain that some of what people say about Protestants is not universally true.
I suppose we first need to define in simplistic terms what the church means to Protestants. It is an assembly of people of all ages who have put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them for heaven and lead them in the meantime to the glory and honor of the triune God. Within that definition, the label “mainstream church” is defined as those Bible-believing churches (they believe Scripture is the Word of God, authoritative and best understood when studied in the plain sense in which it was written). They are either community-based (independant) or attached to a national or international denomination. Further, they believe a true Christian (not just a spirtually-minded person who goes to church) is a transformed person destined for the new heaven and new earth in eternity - and made so by the grace and mercy of God. Many church demographic professionals say that they constitute a majority of the Protestant Christian community.
In contrast, Protestant mainline churches - generally speaking (e.g. most Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, and some Baptists) - have changed their primary ministry focus from the good news of salvation to the good news of social justice. For the most part, they de-emphasize the doctrines of heaven and hell and instead focus on the here and now. Their doctines of eternity are pushed aside in many cases.
This is not say that there aren’t truly committed Christians in mainline groups. But a significant number of these groups sadly believe in universalism (everyone goes to heaven) or some fringe idea that Christians can live a life of sinfulness in this life. But fringe ideas or minority views aren’t unique to just liberal groups within Protestant Christianity - nor are they unknown to Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox. In both mainline and mainstream Protestant denominations and independent groups there are other fringe or minority views - such as once saved always saved or that health and wealth are determined by the level of personal faith in God. For the most part, such conceptsw are unacceptable to mainstream Christians.
I’ve done a very diligent study off and on these past ten years as to why there are different views in Protestantism. It’s easy to say they come about because of apostates or false teachers. But there are sincere people who are mistaken, earnestly believing they have interpreted Scripture correctly. So mingled between the phonies are mistaken and misguided followers of Christ. I daresay your theologians would agree that that there are tensions in Scripture - that is verses or passages that do seem contradictory that causes even the best of us to differ in interpretation. For example, I go back to the issue of predestination -that God elects or predestines certain inviduals for salvation is quite explicit. But so is it explicit in Scripture that man must choose God or reject Him.
These two doctrines are widely debated by conservative Christians who divide themselves into two opposing camps, the Calvinists and the Arminians.
Although their references for their positions are not from Cathollic versions of the Bible, the following biblical do not contradict them:
1 Peter 1:3-5 (New American Standard Bible - NASB) “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” This is the Calvinist or Reformed view that God elects and keeps His children from falling away. Man’s free will is too depraved to be able to choose to accept or leave God.
On the other hand, the Arminians or free-will people use this verse and other passages to validate their position: John 3:16 (NASB) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
In your branch of Christianity - and that is what we Protestants respectfully believe it is, notwithstanding the Roman claim that Roman Catholicism is the only true Church, and the claim of the Eastern Orthodox that they are the only orthodox Church - there are divisions of thought that separate Catholics - such as found in Eastern Rite Catholicism. And so do Eastern Orthodox people have differences with their national churches and separate dogmas.
Apart from the charlatans and hypocrites that exist in all three branches of Christianity, I’m saying that sincere people have differences that will never be resolved this side of the pearly gates. Who is right? You, my friends have your convictions, and I, as a conservative-minded Protestant Christian have mine. Let’s not disparage each other on non-essentials. Let us be charitable, clinging to the fundamental and essential truth that God so loved the world that He gave us His Son to die in our stead so that we may have a life of purity imputed by the blood of Christ here on this earth and then in eternity with Him - without pain or sorrow, only the joy of serving Him always.
I suppose we first need to define in simplistic terms what the church means to Protestants. It is an assembly of people of all ages who have put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them for heaven and lead them in the meantime to the glory and honor of the triune God. Within that definition, the label “mainstream church” is defined as those Bible-believing churches (they believe Scripture is the Word of God, authoritative and best understood when studied in the plain sense in which it was written). They are either community-based (independant) or attached to a national or international denomination. Further, they believe a true Christian (not just a spirtually-minded person who goes to church) is a transformed person destined for the new heaven and new earth in eternity - and made so by the grace and mercy of God. Many church demographic professionals say that they constitute a majority of the Protestant Christian community.
In contrast, Protestant mainline churches - generally speaking (e.g. most Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, and some Baptists) - have changed their primary ministry focus from the good news of salvation to the good news of social justice. For the most part, they de-emphasize the doctrines of heaven and hell and instead focus on the here and now. Their doctines of eternity are pushed aside in many cases.
This is not say that there aren’t truly committed Christians in mainline groups. But a significant number of these groups sadly believe in universalism (everyone goes to heaven) or some fringe idea that Christians can live a life of sinfulness in this life. But fringe ideas or minority views aren’t unique to just liberal groups within Protestant Christianity - nor are they unknown to Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox. In both mainline and mainstream Protestant denominations and independent groups there are other fringe or minority views - such as once saved always saved or that health and wealth are determined by the level of personal faith in God. For the most part, such conceptsw are unacceptable to mainstream Christians.
I’ve done a very diligent study off and on these past ten years as to why there are different views in Protestantism. It’s easy to say they come about because of apostates or false teachers. But there are sincere people who are mistaken, earnestly believing they have interpreted Scripture correctly. So mingled between the phonies are mistaken and misguided followers of Christ. I daresay your theologians would agree that that there are tensions in Scripture - that is verses or passages that do seem contradictory that causes even the best of us to differ in interpretation. For example, I go back to the issue of predestination -that God elects or predestines certain inviduals for salvation is quite explicit. But so is it explicit in Scripture that man must choose God or reject Him.
These two doctrines are widely debated by conservative Christians who divide themselves into two opposing camps, the Calvinists and the Arminians.
Although their references for their positions are not from Cathollic versions of the Bible, the following biblical do not contradict them:
1 Peter 1:3-5 (New American Standard Bible - NASB) “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” This is the Calvinist or Reformed view that God elects and keeps His children from falling away. Man’s free will is too depraved to be able to choose to accept or leave God.
On the other hand, the Arminians or free-will people use this verse and other passages to validate their position: John 3:16 (NASB) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
In your branch of Christianity - and that is what we Protestants respectfully believe it is, notwithstanding the Roman claim that Roman Catholicism is the only true Church, and the claim of the Eastern Orthodox that they are the only orthodox Church - there are divisions of thought that separate Catholics - such as found in Eastern Rite Catholicism. And so do Eastern Orthodox people have differences with their national churches and separate dogmas.
Apart from the charlatans and hypocrites that exist in all three branches of Christianity, I’m saying that sincere people have differences that will never be resolved this side of the pearly gates. Who is right? You, my friends have your convictions, and I, as a conservative-minded Protestant Christian have mine. Let’s not disparage each other on non-essentials. Let us be charitable, clinging to the fundamental and essential truth that God so loved the world that He gave us His Son to die in our stead so that we may have a life of purity imputed by the blood of Christ here on this earth and then in eternity with Him - without pain or sorrow, only the joy of serving Him always.
J
jcrichton
Guest
I thank you for the information–I must confess that I do not have knowledge of non-Catholic Christians other than that to which I’ve been exposed; know that my intent is never to offend non-Catholics or any others; I respect your (and everyone elses) right to believe according to your conviction. I pray the Holy Spirit may enlighten us all so that we may gain freedom from our human limitations and engage Christ Body as He intends us to do!
Maran atha!
Angel
C
convert44
Guest
This is my first post ever. I read all the comments yesterday regarding this issue. I really don’t remember any mention of God’s Grace being sufficient for us. Also it seems to me the gifts and fruits of the Spirit play aren’t ,mentioned. Some overlook this and decieve themselves when focusing one one sctipture to prove a point. Not all non Catholics disagree with you. We walk with the same Lord. I do agree all in the end we should all be one as Jesus and our God are one. This was Jesus’s prayer in the Garden before His journey toward Crucifiction .
In God’s Peace and Love
I am an Episcopalion
I believe in one Holy and Catholic and Apostolic Church
In God’s Peace and Love
I am an Episcopalion
I believe in one Holy and Catholic and Apostolic Church
- Status