1 Timothy 2:11-15: Are women to be silent in church? If so, what about female lectors?

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(1Ti 2:11 RSV) Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
(1Ti 2:12 RSV) I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
(1Ti 2:13 RSV) For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
(1Ti 2:14 RSV) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
(1Ti 2:15 RSV) Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Hi everyone. I am confused about this verse. Does this mean that women must always remain silent in church or simply that women are not to teach in church? Also, someone on another forum is using this verse to say that women should not debate theology or teach theology. How do I respond to this? 🤷:confused:
 
To understand these verses, we must understand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, woman were not allowed to study. When Paul said that woman should learn in quietness and full submission, he was offering them an amazing new opportunity. Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn’t yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently the woman were especially susceptible to the false teachings(2 Timothy 3:1-9), because they did not yet have enough Biblical knowledge to discern the truth. Some interpret this passage to mean that woman should never teach in the assembled church; however, Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul’s commended co-worker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher(Acts 18:24-26). In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsiblity in the church. Phoebe worked in the church(Romans 16:1). Mary, Trphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord’s workers(Romans 16:6, 12), as were Euodia and Syntyche(Philippians 4:2). Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching.
 
“In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study.”

Actually, this is not entirely true. The Jewish commentaries quote Gamaliel’s daughter, and Gamaliel was St. Paul’s teacher. But when it came to formal Torah study, you’re right. Of course, the majority of Jewish men never formally studied Torah, either. 🙂

(Btw, Gamaliel is quoted as comparing his students to different kinds of fish. So the running fish metaphor used by the early Christians for Jesus and for members of the Church may have been connected to this idea that was in the air, because the disciples were Jesus’ students.)

At the time Paul was teaching, there were a lot of “New Women” studying philosophy. Unfortunately, a lot of them were not exactly the quiet type; instead they seemed to have emulated the glamorous hetaera students of Greek philosophy. Picture a bunch of supermodels and fashion queens wearing their skimpy fashion clothes to go talk about the meaning of life (mostly so that they can be attractive conversation partners to men they’re sleeping with, who aren’t their husbands), and you’ll have the popular Roman idea of a studious woman.

And the same kind of Roman woman was often showing up at Christian Masses and study gatherings, and they weren’t necessarily clear on the concept that this wasn’t philosophy or a sexy initiation and magic religion.

Teaching in the church, as opposed to outside church, was the office of the Apostles, passed by them to the bishops/overseers, and later passed by them to priests. It was intimately connected to being able to say Mass. You couldn’t just have anybody stand up and teach. (Or rather, to a Roman, Greek, or Hebrew, you couldn’t just have anybody sit down and teach, and make everybody else stand up and listen.).

Now, if you went to a philosophy gathering, anybody could stand up and argue. If you were going to a Torah study session, probably the same thing was true. But although the liturgy of the Word part of the Mass may have had elements drawn from Torah study or philosophical gatherings, that wasn’t what it was. I suspect a lot of newbies to the Church, or women of influence, were either teaching right before or after Mass and providing confusion, or standing up to give homilies before the local bishop could do it.

Another thing that may have been happening is outbursts of prophecy. This shows up in other verses. Some people think this is connected to the command that women keep their heads covered, and that women were ripping off their veils (as if at their own homes and not in public) while in ecstasy and then lecturing everybody. This interpretation is in keeping with Paul’s apparent anxiety that everybody at Mass quit being so chaotic in their behavior, and freaking out visitors.

Anyway, whatever Paul’s specific beef was, it wasn’t against all teaching of religion by women. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have commended Timothy’s mother and grandmother for teaching him Christianity! (Not to mention Phoebe, et al.) We have no evidence of women lectors in antiquity; but then, there don’t seem to have been lectors back then. The bishop chose the readings, because the bishop chose what to talk about during his sermon. If a guest was going to give a sermon, like Jesus did in the synagogue, the guest probably chose the text also, like Jesus did in the synagogue.

Now, there are various reasons to have or not have woman lectors, but Paul doesn’t seem to be talking about that. He’s certainly not talking about woman organists, for example, or that women should be thrown out if their high heels click.

The idea that women shouldn’t teach or discuss theology at any time is even more ludicrous, as it’s fairly clear that even curmudgeonly St. Jerome was all for it. He spent a lot of time discussing theology with his whole circle of women friends: St. Marcella, St. Paula, St. Eustochium, St. Fabiola, etc. Throughout early Christianity, again and again we meet learned women, both consecrated women and normal wives and mothers, learning and teaching. It’s fairly clear that deaconesses and their canoness assistants were responsible for teaching women where men couldn’t go, and for teaching orphans as well as raising them, St. Augustine acclaims his mother St. Monica’s level of knowledge of the Scriptures, even though she had learned it entirely by going to all possible Masses and keeping her ears open; so she must have been talking to him about Scripture, or he’d have no way of knowing she was so learned.

At any rate, since the Church has acclaimed women as Doctors of the Church, which is to say, universal teachers of theology to all times and places, it’s a bit silly to say the Church commands women not to teach theology. 🙂
 
The current practice of having female lectors contradicts this teaching of Sacred Scripture.

Neither can it be said that this was merely an ancient situation, which has no bearing on the Church in subsequent generations, since Sacred Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit (not merely by Paul and others) for the faithful of every generation.

Men and women are intended by God to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society.
 
This is an interesting topic, as I am studying 1 Tim at present. But a similar point is made in 1 Cor
women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church (NRSV, 1 Cor 14:34,35).
I see in blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2008/10/news-flash-pope-may-allow-wome.html
NEWS FLASH: Pope may allow women lectors!

That’s one intriguing element in the final message from the Vatican Synod on the Bible to the world’s Catholics. It was news to me–weren’t women already reading at mass? But yes, Proposition 17 (there is a Proposition 8, but I suspect the Roman version has little to do with the California version), approved by the 253 bishops, regards “The ministry of the word and women,” and says in its final sentence:
“It is hoped that the ministry of lector be opened also to women, so that their role as proclaimers of the word may be recognized in the Christian community.”
If the Pope approves Women Lectors (in spite of Lectors being one of the old minor orders in Holy Orders) I presume women Lectors are not contrary to the teaching of the Bible, in spite of Ron Conte’s opinion.
 
(1Ti 2:11 RSV) Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
(1Ti 2:12 RSV) I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
(1Ti 2:13 RSV) For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
(1Ti 2:14 RSV) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
(1Ti 2:15 RSV) Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Hi everyone. I am confused about this verse. Does this mean that women must always remain silent in church or simply that women are not to teach in church? Also, someone on another forum is using this verse to say that women should not debate theology or teach theology. How do I respond to this? 🤷:confused:
Just the ones who insist on talking during the readings…:okpeople: 😃
 
If the Pope approves Women Lectors (in spite of Lectors being one of the old minor orders in Holy Orders)
I think you have hit the nail on the head. “Holy Orders” is reserved for men only and since “lector” was a minor order as preparatory for the diaconate, then this admonition for women to be silent in church makes sense. Jesus was a revolutionary in social teaching, yet he did not allow the ordination of women. Otherwise Jesus would have had at least one female apostle. “Silence” for women in Church," I think, pertains to this.

Since a “lector” today simply reads and does not teach, there seems to be no obstacle to prevent “official” women “lectors” in future. In our parish, we already have women readers for all the readings except for the gospel, so they are already performing this duty with our pastor’s permission. The last I heard, the second reading is supposed to be reserved for males only but perhaps this has changed and I am not aware of it.

“Head coverings” for women in church “because of the angels” pertains to modesty and respect for the Blessed Sacrament. Women wore very elaborate hair styles in those days. A veil was necessary to cover their hair/heads in church so as to not attract attention to the women and away from the Blessed Sacrament/Mass. The Seraphim (the highest angelic order) cover their faces before God in homage and adoration and they also continually minister to God in the Blessed Sacrament in every Catholic Church in the world! Head coverings for women in Paul’s culture were a sign of respect and modesty in church. This is why Paul made the statement that he did.
While he (Isaiah) stood gazing before the priest’s court, there arose before him an august vision of Yahweh sitting on the throne of His glory. On each side of the throne stood mysterious guardians, each supplied with six wings: two to bear them up, two veiling their faces, and two covering their feet, now naked, as became priestly service in the presence of the Almighty. His highest servants, they were there to minister to Him and proclaim His glory, each calling to the other: “Holy, holy, holy, Yahweh of hosts; all the earth is full of His glory.” These were seraphim, one of which flew towards Isaias bearing a live coal which he had taken from the altar, and with which he touched and purified the Prophet’s lips, that henceforth these might be consecrated to the utterances of inspiration.
From: newadvent.org/cathen/13725b.htm

However, in the western world, modest “veils” morphed into hats, and then into elaborate hats, and women actually vied for attention using their hats! The whole purpose of veiling for respect and modesty was “lost” and this is why head coverings are no longer mandated by Canon Law. (Men and women were not allowed to sit together in church either and this law has been changed also since it was originally based on Jewish temple worship where women were separated from men by a partition called a mehizah which was made of an opaque curtain or latticework. Zechariah 12:12) The first instance of male/female separation is actually in Exodus 15:20. These are disciplinary laws and can be changed by the Church at any time.
 
I’ve got to agree with SHW. I’ve been a female reader (not lector - I know the difference) and certainly never taught anything to anyone or had any sort of authority of my own - I simply proclaimed the texts of Sacred Scripture (minus the Gospels) assigned for the day. 🤷
 
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture do not support the practice of women lectors.

If the Pope permits women lectors, this is a decision under the temporal authority of the Church, which is fallible. But Tradition and Scripture are infallible. So a faithful Catholic need not always agree with the temporal decisions of the temporal authority.

[1 Timothy]
{2:11} Let a woman learn in silence with all subjection.
{2:12} For I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be in authority over a man, but to be in silence.

[1 Corinthians]
{14:34} Women should be silent in the churches. For it is not permitted for them to speak; but instead, they should be subordinate, as the law also says.
{14:35} And if they want to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.
{14:36} So now, did the Word of God proceed from you? Or was it sent to you alone?
{14:37} If anyone seems to be a prophet or a spiritual person, he should understand these things which I am writing to you, that these things are the commandments of the Lord.
{14:38} If anyone does not recognize these things, he should not be recognized.

A woman who takes the role of lector is not silent, and is not subordinate.

Also, the roles of reading the Word and of distributing Communion are most proper for ordained persons, yet it has become the practice in many places for laypersons to take this role as if it were a right.

I recall one Mass that I attended, a daily Mass without about 100 persons present and 7 priests concelebrating. When it was time for the readings, one lay woman got up and did all the readings herself, except the Gospel, while the priests just sat there. When it was time for Communion, numberous lay men and women got up to distribute Communion, despite there being 7 priests and only about 100 communicants. This is not the proper role for laypersons.
 
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture do not support the practice of women lectors.

If the Pope permits women lectors, this is a decision under the temporal authority of the Church, which is fallible. But Tradition and Scripture are infallible. So a faithful Catholic need not always agree with the temporal decisions of the temporal authority.
Women “readers” can become “lectors” as long as the meaning of the word “lector” changes to mean a synonym of “reader.” The minor order of “lector” no longer serves its original purpose in the Western Church at this time. The paschal lamb was a real animal (lamb) in the Old Covenant. Jesus became the “Paschal Lamb” in the New Covenant. Same words yet different meanings. Women must be subordinate to the ruling authority of the Church (hierarchy) but then so must men. 😃 I think the deaconesses originally took charge of the women in the Church (literally) since they were separated from the men during the Mass.
[1 Timothy]
{2:11} Let a woman learn in silence with all subjection.
{2:12} For I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be in authority over a man, but to be in silence.
A woman who takes the role of lector is not silent, and is not subordinate.
Acts 18:26 “So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.”

Priscilla and her husband Aquila both instruct Paul in the faith and things of God. A woman may teach. Paul was addressing certain problems caused by certain women in the Church. Priscilla was not one of these women who was causing the problems and so she is allowed to teach Paul privately.

It is also every Christian’s duty to rebuke bishop, priest, or any others in authority if they are not acting in accordance with Christ’s gospel. However, it is best done privately and with humility.
Also, the roles of reading the Word and of distributing Communion are most proper for ordained persons, yet it has become the practice in many places for laypersons to take this role as if it were a right.
I recall one Mass that I attended, a daily Mass without about 100 persons present and 7 priests concelebrating. When it was time for the readings, one lay woman got up and did all the readings herself, except the Gospel, while the priests just sat there. When it was time for Communion, numberous lay men and women got up to distribute Communion, despite there being 7 priests and only about 100 communicants. This is not the proper role for laypersons.
I agree with you. This is not the intent of the original document for “extraordinary ministers.” Abuse is everywhere, especially the USA.
 
SHW

Thank you for your supportive comments and congratulations on your 1000 posts.
You’re welcome! Thanks for pointing out the 1000 posts to me. Whew! That has to be close to a novella in total words, I think, since I am rather wordy. 🙂
 
Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching.
I’m not sure that’s what 1 Timothy 2 is about. Consider 1 Timothy 2:2 “… that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life…”
Note that the word “quiet” includes men here.

I think that the word “teach” may be referring to apostolic teaching. Women are not called by God to apostolic ordination and therefore they are not called to profess the faith by proclaiming truths. This does not mean that women cannot assist the apostolic Church by teaching the proclamations of the Magisterium. For example women can teach in Catholic schools and read the Scriptures aloud at mass. However, during the definition of the Immaculate Conception (for example) women as well as non-ordained men were “silent”.

This authoritative sense of the word “teach” may also apply to family life (wives are to be submissive to husbands). I would like to understand this better however it is not a stumbling block for me because I believe if we really see God’s glory in His Church and His Son, then these so-called difficult teachings are welcomed joyfully. Perhaps worldly thinking is one cause of difficulty with these teachings.
 
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture do not support the practice of women lectors.

If the Pope permits women lectors, this is a decision under the temporal authority of the Church, which is fallible. But Tradition and Scripture are infallible. So a faithful Catholic need not always agree with the temporal decisions of the temporal authority.

[1 Timothy]
{2:11} Let a woman learn in silence with all subjection.
{2:12} For I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be in authority over a man, but to be in silence.

[1 Corinthians]
{14:34} Women should be silent in the churches. For it is not permitted for them to speak; but instead, they should be subordinate, as the law also says.
{14:35} And if they want to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.
{14:36} So now, did the Word of God proceed from you? Or was it sent to you alone?
{14:37} If anyone seems to be a prophet or a spiritual person, he should understand these things which I am writing to you, that these things are the commandments of the Lord.
{14:38} If anyone does not recognize these things, he should not be recognized.
Hi Ron:)
I was wondering how this applies to saying the rosary in Church. Do you think it means women should be silent during Mass, or at all times in the Church, including during a rosary? I’m guessing that if they are to be silent in church that means silently praying also. Which means that women should not pray out loud.

I’ve also wondered about the Mass and how we are required to say so much during the Mass and how this relates to being silent in church? It doesn’t seem to relate does it?

How does “active participation” in the Mass correspond with being silent?

🙂
 
I am very interested in this discussion on 1 Tim 2:11-15, and am not too sure of where I stand. To clarify my thinking I have been trying to read the commentaries of Fr Benjamin Fiore SJ and of Prof Philip Towner. In fact I feel closer to the Protestant Towner, who believed that 1 Tim was written by Paul, rather than to Fr Fiore, who holds that the author of 1 Tim was not Paul

Fr Fiore wrote (p 72)
Moreover, the number of women in leadership positions in campus organizations often exceeds that of men. A similar observation can be made about women in parish organizations and on parish committees. A lesson here is to be careful to discern the degree to which our positions on issues of the day might be skewed by cultural biases.
On p 67 he wrote:
The social strategy of the PE (Pastoral Epistles) looks to restore the equilibrium of the church in the eyes of the larger community by bringing the behavior of church members into line with the expectations of Greco-Roman society and in keeping with Pauline tradition.
Towner wrote (p 213):
Paul was not dealing with the social realities of twenty-first-century Western life. From all appearances, he was addressing a uniquely complicated situation in Ephesus.
On page 214 he wrote:
First, in the immediate literary context, “in quietness” describes the posture and attitude of appropriate deference to the teacher. It does not exclude wives from participating in certain speaking activities such as praying, prophesising, or speaking in tongues.
I think both these authors clarify, at least for me, to a certain extent these difficult verses.
 
Hi Ron:)
I was wondering how this applies to saying the rosary in Church. Do you think it means women should be silent during Mass, or at all times in the Church, including during a rosary? I’m guessing that if they are to be silent in church that means silently praying also. Which means that women should not pray out loud.

I’ve also wondered about the Mass and how we are required to say so much during the Mass and how this relates to being silent in church? It doesn’t seem to relate does it?

How does “active participation” in the Mass correspond with being silent?

🙂
Silence is figurative, not literal. It refers to women not taking roles of leadership, teaching, or authority over men in the Church. Reading the Scriptures and distributing Communion are roles of leadership, so these are not fitting roles for women at Mass.

Some persons interpret this and other passages about women’s roles in such a way as to nullify the meaning of the passage. For example, they claim that it was only an historical past situation, just Paul speaking about one narrow situation in the past. But all of Sacred Scripture is Christ speaking to every member of the faithful throughout all generations.

The claim that this verse applies to men as well as women is absurd, since the passage explicitly says women.

Should we begin by accepting all that modern sinful secular society teaches, and then interpret the Bible based on that teaching? Modern society is appaulled by the teaching of Saint Paul on women’s roles, but Christ is not appalled.
 
Ron

One of the nice features about CA is the respect and courtesy contributors have for each other.

I admire your commitment to the Church and your knowledge of the Bible.

However I do not agree with you always.

I consider both of us are orthodox Catholics, but I would like to have it on record that I disagree with you on some issues.

I foind no problems with women doing the readings at Mass and being Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist.
 
Silence is figurative, not literal. It refers to women not taking roles of leadership, teaching, or authority over men in the Church. Reading the Scriptures and distributing Communion are roles of leadership, so these are not fitting roles for women at Mass.

Some persons interpret this and other passages about women’s roles in such a way as to nullify the meaning of the passage. For example, they claim that it was only an historical past situation, just Paul speaking about one narrow situation in the past. But all of Sacred Scripture is Christ speaking to every member of the faithful throughout all generations.

The claim that this verse applies to men as well as women is absurd, since the passage explicitly says women.

Should we begin by accepting all that modern sinful secular society teaches, and then interpret the Bible based on that teaching? Modern society is appaulled by the teaching of Saint Paul on women’s roles, but Christ is not appalled.
Some persons say that distributing communion can be viewed as “service.”

It depends on whether the rule/law was made because of a “custom” or a “divine decree.” Customs can be changed, but divine decrees cannot. It is up to the Church hierarchy to distinguish between the two. So, the definition of marriage cannot change because it is defined by divine decree. (Mark 10:6-9)

Women and men sitting apart in church is a custom, not a divine decree and so it was changed. Celibate clergy is a law/custom which can also be changed so that clergy can marry, yet if this law changes, they can marry only once which is by divine decree. (1 Timothy 3:2, 1 Timothy 3:12) In other words, if their wives die, they cannot remarry.

Female clergy are forbidden by divine decree, so the priesthood is reserved for males only.

The Church hierarchy alone must rule on these changeable “customs” since they have the authority of Jesus to do so, through their power of “binding and loosing.” (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18)
 
(1Ti 2:11 RSV) Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
(1Ti 2:12 RSV) I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
(1Ti 2:13 RSV) For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
(1Ti 2:14 RSV) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
(1Ti 2:15 RSV) Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Hi everyone. I am confused about this verse. Does this mean that women must always remain silent in church or simply that women are not to teach in church? Also, someone on another forum is using this verse to say that women should not debate theology or teach theology. How do I respond to this? 🤷:confused:
I have read that the scholarly consensus is that these lines were not written by Paul but were a response to an issue that arose at least one hundred years later.
 
Silence is figurative, not literal. It refers to women not taking roles of leadership, teaching, or authority over men in the Church. Reading the Scriptures and distributing Communion are roles of leadership, so these are not fitting roles for women at Mass.

Hi Ron,🙂
I agree with you but am somewhat perplexed by your comment that “silence is figurative, not literal.”

Here’s why- (I wish I was a bible scholar but anyhow)- the word is used twice in verse 11 and 12.
“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection”
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.” (Douay Rheims).

(My New American Bible uses the word “quiet” in the second instance.)

How can I reasonably interpret this to not be a literal silence? Are you suggesting it means that she can chatter about the weather but when it comes to teachings she must only be silent then? Or are you saying that the word silent only means “non-participatory”? Because if that were the case wouldn’t he have chosen another word? When instructing someone on what NOT to do, you don’t usually ask them to be silent on the subject if it is an action and not a sound you are referring to.

“nor to use authority” would seem to indicate to me that they should not have any positions of authority which would include a Eucharistic minister because then you would have a woman with authority over a man when she administers the Eucharist. I agree with you on all points except the one above.
 
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