1 Timothy 3:15:==

[heiscominginthe]

Hi heiscominginthe,

Let me ask you this question, can all who claim to be members of christ teach differently? does god change his on different issues after thousands of years? How come we see so many denominations teaching differently on different issues? who is teaching the truth? I do not think christ intended for his body to work like that. He came to give us one simple message and the church and it’s members were commanded to keep it and not change it to suit the sign of the times.

Yes i agree christ is the head of the of the body, but he has given this authority to peter as head of the church on earth! He delegated this authority to peter. It doesn’t matter if the pope was present or not. There is no valid ecumenical council until the pope approves the final documents. I don’t know which ones the popes attended and which ones he didn’t attend, but it is irrelevant because the pope approved the conciliar documents.

Peter did not have any difficulty with this decision. If we go to Acts 15, we read that there was a lot of debate in the Church about whether Gentile converts needed to be circumcised. After the debate, Peter “rose” and declared that circumcision was not necessary. Peter made an authoritative decision about the doctrinal question, and no one questioned him. In fact, after Peter spoke it says “all kept silent.”

Paul opposed Peter because he was separating himself from the Gentiles during meals. Why was this a big deal? Because Peter was the one who infallibly taught that the Gentiles were equal members of the New Covenant. Peter was the one who made this monumental decision as we read in the book of Acts.*** Paul was criticizing Peter’s conduct, not his teaching authority.*** Everyone would have looked naturally to Peter and his conduct since he was the leader. God specifically reveals this in Scripture to teach us that there is a difference between a pope’s private conduct and opinions and his official teaching authority.

You rely solely on the precept that the CC was and is the only true church. I believe the true church has always been since the time of our Lord. Yet, I don’t believe it is this sect or that sect, but all who stand upon the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, without adding or taking away from the Word of God, being led in all things by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that there were warnings given in revelation to different churches and problems that need to be addressed. I don’t believe these problems are pointing only at the CC, but the church as a whole of all denominations.

As for what occured between Paul and Peter, Peter was the one at fault and was rebuked by Paul through the HS. Peter repented, knowing he was in the wrong. I believe Paul was as much a leader of the faith as was Peter. The difference being was Peter being more associated with the Jews and Paul being more associated with the Gentiles, but still one church.

I believe Paul had as much authority as Peter.

 

[heiscominginthe]

guanophoreDo you think ignorance is offensive to God?

I agree that we are to study, to show ourselves approved. However, I am not sure He is offended by ignorance. Maybe if we choose to stay ignorant?

I suggest you go back and read the prior thread where your use of the word ignorant is offensive to the HS, not a person being ignorant.

IT is simply a testimony to the fact that not all you are led to do is from the HS.

Sometimes you have been clearly “led” to do things that are against the HS. This happens to all of us, because we are human, and as such, are imperfect vessels, and have “dirty” filters for discernment at times.

All men sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Luke called the Church founded by Christ Catholic. This term has been used since the Apostolic times, until now. Your perceptions of what “catholic” means will not take the word out of scripture.

Show me where Luke calls the church catholic?

This is a teaching that is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.
Jesus is not a created being. He was, in the beginning, with the Father. All things were created through HIm, and for HIm.

Do you know what the word begotten means. Jesus as begotten/born of the Father. Jesus is the Word of God, can a word exist unless it first be spoken?

Ok. I pray you will recognize the nature of the person who bore those scars.

And I pray the Lord forgive you, for you know not what you do.

I am sure you believe your perceptions of what you read in the bible are from the HS. I am noticing that your conclusions are different from how the HS led others before you, such as the Apostles and their successors.

Now, if my stand is supported by scripture, but is contrary to catholic tradition, then it is untrue? I will stick with the Word of God and walk in his spirit.

Indeed, authority does “come alive in his heart”. More often than not, it is his own “authority” and not that appointed by God to shepherd the Church.

This is where the church has had many problems. Men promote doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God. This comes from leading the HS instead of being led of the HS.

 

[imjustme]

I agree that the Church is the pillar and ground, that it was called “The Way”, but the term “catholic” was already in use by the time the book of Acts was written:

31 So **the church throughout all **Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.
Acts 9:31

If you look at the Gk here it is clearly “ecclesia kath holos” (church throughout all = Catholic Church)

The word “catholic” meant “united” or “universal” and was not applied to the Church in Rome (with a capital “C”) until 1554.

Quoting from
etymonline.com :

“c.1350, “of the doctrines of the ancient Church,” lit. “universally accepted,” from L.L. catholicus “universal, general,” from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath’ holou, from kata “about” + gen. of holos “whole” (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation.”

 

[guanophore]

You rely solely on the precept that the CC was and is the only true church. I believe the true church has always been since the time of our Lord. Yet, I don’t believe it is this sect or that sect, but all who stand upon the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, without adding or taking away from the Word of God, being led in all things by the Holy Spirit.

What you have described here is what Catholic means. Jesus only founded One Church. It is true it was considered a Jewish “sect” at one time.

I believe that there were warnings given in revelation to different churches and problems that need to be addressed. I don't believe these problems are pointing only at the CC, but the church as a whole of all denominations.

That’s just it, heis. All the other denominations are such because they split off from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

 I believe Paul was as much a leader of the faith as was Peter. The difference being was Peter being more associated with the Jews and Paul being more associated with the Gentiles, but still one church.

I believe Paul had as much authority as Peter.

Both were apostles and leaders. Peter had some responsibilities that were not given to anyone else.

I suggest you go back and read the prior thread where your use of the word ignorant is offensive to the HS, not a person being ignorant.

I know you believe that you speak with the unction of the HS. For that reason, perhaps you think, when I point out that you are lacking knowledge that I am saying the HS is ignorant?

Show me where Luke calls the church catholic?

Acts 9:31

31 So **the church throughout all **Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

When you look at these words in the Greek, you will find that it says “ekklesia kath holos”.

This is translated "Catholic Church’. It means universal, or “the church throughout all”.

Do you know what the word begotten means. Jesus as begotten/born of the Father. Jesus is the Word of God, can a word exist unless it first be spoken?

I know what the Apostles taught that it meant, and they did NOT teach that Jesus was created.
**John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
**

You are inferring that Jesus did not exist before He became man, and this is not the case.
He was begotten (became human) not “made”.

And I pray the Lord forgive you, for you know not what you do.

Thank you. I need forgiveness for all my wrongdoings, the ones that I know, and the ones that I don’t.

Now, if my stand is supported by scripture, but is contrary to catholic tradition, then it is untrue? I will stick with the Word of God and walk in his spirit.

Many people extract “doctrine” from scripture that is, like yours, a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. You are certainly free to stick with this different gospel. This has been done since the time the true gospel was preached by Christ.

This is where the church has had many problems. Men promote doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God. This comes from leading the HS instead of being led of the HS.

I am sure it seems contrary to you, since you have not been able to recieve the faith of the Apostles. This is usually the case with persons who got their faith from other men who created doctrines out of their own minds, or their understanding of scripture. I just read a bunch of posts from some Mormons who believe that Adam is Michael the Archangel!

 

[guanophore]

The word “catholic” meant “united” or “universal” and was not applied to the Church in Rome (with a capital “C”) until 1554.

Quoting from
etymonline.com :

“c.1350, “of the doctrines of the ancient Church,” lit. “universally accepted,” from L.L. catholicus “universal, general,” from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath’ holou, from kata “about” + gen. of holos “whole” (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation.”

I suppose that the person writing this dictionary might not know any better. The term “Catholic” has been used to describe the Church since the time of the NT, as we can see in the book of Acts. The early fathers, writing one generation after the Apostles, also use this word to describe the Church.

The Church was not “headquartered” in Rome for centuries, though the Church at Rome was considered pre-eminient from the second century. You may benefit from some study of the Great Schism, if you think that these issues were not discussed prior to the Reformation.

 

[Bill_Pick]

1554 Is this person trying to talk a joke,
When did the term “Catholic”, as used for The Catholic Church, come about?
“Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

When did the term “Catholic” come about?
The oldest writing of the term is from St. Ignatius of Antioch.
I have heard as early as 107 AD or as late as 110 AD. Either way it happened before St. Ignatius died in 117 AD.
St. John died in 96 AD. The word Catholic was probably being used orally before it was written down. One can assume this due to the context of the letter. Ignatius doesn’t explain what he means by “catholic”, he just uses the term as though everyone knew what he is talking about.
It is conceivable that the term was being used by Christians while St. John was still alive.
The term was written down by St. Ignatius of Antioch. Antioch is where the term “Christian” was first used.

 

[imjustme]

1554 Is this person trying to talk a joke,
When did the term “Catholic”, as used for The Catholic Church, come about?
“Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

When did the term “Catholic” come about?
The oldest writing of the term is from St. Ignatius of Antioch.
I have heard as early as 107 AD or as late as 110 AD. Either way it happened before St. Ignatius died in 117 AD.
St. John died in 96 AD. The word Catholic was probably being used orally before it was written down. One can assume this due to the context of the letter. Ignatius doesn’t explain what he means by “catholic”, he just uses the term as though everyone knew what he is talking about.
It is conceivable that the term was being used by Christians while St. John was still alive.
The term was written down by St. Ignatius of Antioch. Antioch is where the term “Christian” was first used.

You cut and pasted from Philip Turgati.

The full article can be found here for anyone who wants to read the original, credited to the author, not plagerised by someone trying to sound like an apologist for the catholic church

iamonetruth.com/catholic.htm

As was already noted by fellow member Guyonthestreet, in another thread, “it very bad form to copy the work of another person and pass it off as your own, without giving them the credit.”

 

[guanophore]

You cut and pasted from Philip Turgati.

The full article can be found here for anyone who wants to read the original, credited to the author, not plagerised by someone trying to sound like an apologist for the catholic church

iamonetruth.com/catholic.htm

As was already noted by fellow member Guyonthestreet, in another thread, “it very bad form to copy the work of another person and pass it off as your own, without giving them the credit.”

And not even accurate, since we find it written in the book of Acts.

 

[heiscominginthe]

=guanophore;5459777]What you have described here is what Catholic means. Jesus only founded One Church. It is true it was considered a Jewish “sect” at one time.

What I described was the the Church that was, is, and always will be established on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That’s just it, heis. All the other denominations are such because they split off from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

Do you not know your own history? There was a three way split in on moment of time in your own religion, long before the reformation period. Regardless of what you want to call yourself, you are a denomination, a sect, a religion.

Both were apostles and leaders. Peter had some responsibilities that were not given to anyone else.

Can you prove this? Where does it say that Peter alone was given special priviledges and no one else had them. If this be the case, then why do you believe your popes were given this very authority? And don’t you teach that Peter sits at the entrance of the pearly gates?

I know you believe that you speak with the unction of the HS. For that reason, perhaps you think, when I point out that you are lacking knowledge that I am saying the HS is ignorant?

We will let God just that.

Acts 9:31

31 So **the church throughout all **Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

When you look at these words in the Greek, you will find that it says “ekklesia kath holos”.

This is translated "Catholic Church’. It means universal, or “the church throughout all”.

Exactly which Greek dialect do you get your interpretation from?

I know what the Apostles taught that it meant, and they did NOT teach that Jesus was created.
**John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
**

You are inferring that Jesus did not exist before He became man, and this is not the case.
He was begotten (became human) not “made”.

Now you are adding to my words. Jesus did indeed exist prior to coming to earth. For he was not begotten of the Father when sent to earth, he was begotten of the Father, even before creation of the heavens and the earth. For he was the beginning of all creation.

Thank you. I need forgiveness for all my wrongdoings, the ones that I know, and the ones that I don’t.

All men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. All need forgiveness.

Many people extract “doctrine” from scripture that is, like yours, a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. You are certainly free to stick with this different gospel. This has been done since the time the true gospel was preached by Christ.

I stand on the gospel of Jesus Christ and in case you didn’t know, it was given through the Apostles by the unction of the Holy Spirit.

I am sure it seems contrary to you, since you have not been able to recieve the faith of the Apostles. This is usually the case with persons who got their faith from other men who created doctrines out of their own minds, or their understanding of scripture. I just read a bunch of posts from some Mormons who believe that Adam is Michael the Archangel!

If you could only know how much faith I have, but always in need of more. Yet, is it not written that to each man is given a measure of faith? I pray my faith has more to come. For Jesus said that there will come others who will do greater things then what he did. I don’t believe that has occured as of yet.

As for the Mormons, although their doctrine and ways are not perfect, they are closer to the truth them many other denominations.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Do you not know your own history? There was a three way split in on moment of time in your own religion, long before the reformation period. Regardless of what you want to call yourself, you are a denomination, a sect, a religion

Yes I know about the split do you know what a denomination is,Do you call all Baptism church that get in fight with= end the church and splitt a new denomination or just another Baptism church.